351

(18 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

max keanu wrote:

I'm not really a Romaniphile, but I once read Juvenal's Satires and to this day I can still recall his biting wit regarding the morals & ethics of the powers that be at that time (100 -200 A.D... I think).

I wondering if Trump as El Presidente would institute a top-down moral revolution...

The Romans knew how to build and maintain big, beautiful walls to greet "immigrants" for three centuries.

If there could be a parallel, Trump would be Julius Caesar and his son, Eric, Octavian/Augustus Caesar. 

Cato - Ted Cruz
Brutus - Mitt Romney
Pompey - Harry Reid
Crassus - Mitch McConnell
Chris Hemsworth as Thor as Marc Antony
Kim Kardashian as Cleopatra

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(6 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

max keanu wrote:
Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

If you get worried about word count, you can always put direct thought in italics.


I've used italics for thinking/thoughts of characters, however it gets cumbersome then you have a character who thinks a lot... like me. I found in Wolf's book the ::::: internal thoughts here ::::: made it very clear it was to be set apart, almost as if Wolf was also implying his direct 1st person present tense thoughts with force. But it took some getting use to.

Also, the 1st tense delimited with :::::---:::: could be applied to the thinking of 2 or more characters in one paragraph, abite very long paragraphs.

Margaret Atwood in Oryx and Crake combines verb-tense and POV change within the same character to effect both a flashback (actually constituting most of the novel) and internal-dialog thought change between the time periods.  Atwood is to be respected for artistic craftsmanship while being commercially successful through politically-correct themes and character stereotypes exemplified by Oryx and Crake through limpid universal politically left fallacious memes such as the Evil Corporation doing evil things to The People. Some of her other stuff is offensively feminist and green.

On the other hand, as the one on TNBW who is actively seeking to create of style of internal-dialog without punctuation gimmicks such as all that annoying italicization, I blend narration, explicit and internal dialog, and plot progression - the prototype (not original to me, though I can't name an author from whom I might have gotten it) being Pristine Universe, better in the chapter-form within Remembrances and Reconciliation (ch.8)  than the short story I created from that chapter because the difficulty of the style is moving the story along enough for a short story. I think any novel needs to step away from the style for a bit to push the plot forward, but I will try to see what I can do in the third book of the Remembrance series that starts at the end of the second and unfinished book Maximilian's Achilles and Patroclus (ch.7).

Be that as it may, any style which does not use standard dialog designation will receive resistance but will only fail in an artistic sense if the author is not logically consistent in his own rules he makes up. There is, by the way, no standard for italicizing dialog, and certainly that method for expressing POV change rarely works any more than the standard quote with 'he thought' dialog tag.

353

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max keanu wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
max keanu wrote:

BTW Charles - I did make you moderator of Lit Fiction.  Errare humanum est, in errore perservare stultum wink

Bellum in Gallia malum, sed in matella taetrum.

I Googled and came up with the Latin phrase, but in doing so discovered Petronius's Satyricon. Have you read this? Interesting in so many ways.

Like an ancient Roman Reality TV show spiced with satire. Interesting how Augustus' top-down moral revolution had minimal effect within two generations.

354

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max keanu wrote:

BTW Charles - I did make you moderator of Lit Fiction.  Errare humanum est, in errore perservare stultum wink

Bellum in Gallia malum, sed in matella taetrum.

355

(18 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

rhiannon wrote:

[...] rags to riches, overcoming the monster, the quest, voyage and return, comedy, tragedy, rebirth.  Ronald Tobias thought there were 20.  I'd list Tobias' but I'm tired.

And the way this bulls*** works is: if a novel does not have a plot of one these types, "it has no plot."  A story has a conflict, or it is just telling of some facts, real or made up. A story has structure, an arc of development, from beginning to end, because human understanding (by  the reader) must have context put to facts.  Unless "plot" only means the story being told within a defined structure, that is, logically plotted out by the author, the word "plot" is a teaching device for the ignorant. If you ask: what should I write about? Ronald Tobias says:

Quest
Adventure
Pursuit
Rescue
Escape
Revenge
The Riddle
Rivalry
Underdog
Temptation
Metamorphosis
Transformation
Maturation
Love
Forbidden Love
Sacrifice
Discovery
Wretched Excess
Ascension
Descension.

And you say: okay, thanks.

As a generality, Aristotle has it right for a story told: solving a conflict through physical force and solving a problem by mental force, but I'd quibble on the fact that a good story need not have the conflict resolved, there possibly being meaning in unresolved conflict, or the conflict resolved by one or the other of physical and mental means.

njc wrote:

Marxism as preached by Marx may be true anarchism, but as a practical matter it cannot be implemented without rigid controls over individuals.  And also as a practical matter there are no shortage of people who enjoy inflicting such rigid control on individuals.  And so the nearest that it has ever been approached is in monastic communities where people are driven by and committed to a purpose beyond either themselves or their community.

Most misunderstood/not taught/never read/who-cares-about fact on communism:

Withering away of the state is a concept of Marxism, coined by Friedrich Engels, and referring to the idea that, with realization of the ideals of socialism, the social institution of a state will eventually become obsolete and disappear, as the society will be able to govern itself without the state and its coercive enforcement of the law.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withering … _the_state

In the list of human universals { http://www.mindmelding.com/Human%20Universals.htm }are:

redress of wrongs
resistance to abuse of power, to dominance

This is settled, has always been settled, and will always be settled by a sovereign, and under the principle of the Rule of Law, a sovereign state is a politically organized body of people under a single sovereign.  It is that abolition of "coercive enforcement of the law" (i.e, Rule of Law) that, in fact, seeks to achieve dominance of some over others without the rule of law; and, of course, that's oriental despotism.  Aristotle asserted the irony of such despotism in that it is not based on force but rather on consent, but also of the consent of slave to master.

Two major (oriental) despotic peoples: Muscovy/Russian Empire/U.S.S.R.  and Empire/People's Republic of China.  Wow! Weird how they shoved through Engels' stateless societies through the ideals of socialism.

njc wrote:

To answer the last paragraph: Because people, with the exception of a few nihilists, need to find and understand a moral order in the world.

As to Haidt and Moral Foundations Theory being the wrong approach: Is that because they are in error?  Or because they are incomplete in some way?  Do they lack predictive power?  Are their answers likely to mislead?

My exerience of Engineering School,  many years ago, taught me that a given situation may be described by multiple levels of theory, each one more complete but also more difficult than the one before.

My experience with engineers is that they like to think a photon can be made to be a wave with good engineering. They also will read the preceding sentence in a literal way and go "Huh?"

vern wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
vern wrote:

So, you do agree with me that organized religion is the problem.

Actually, I think you said white heterosexual male Protestant Americans is the problem, or was that someone to whose mind you have melded?

vern wrote:

Unfortunately, none of the major religions adhere to the philosophy set forth in the quote. You need only go to any denominational gathering or tune into any televangelist or any event where they offer up a prayer to confirm it. No, I don't really expect you to say so -- on the contrary, you'll most likely twist it around to say something else -- but you might try it in the hopes of giving me a heart attack. Take care. Vern

Matthew 6:6 within the first level of understanding means that followers of a minority faith should lie low and even be secretive, and if the God of that faith has any power to hear prayer, he will do so.  At a broader, second level understanding it means that faith does not require ostentation, and contrariwise puritans were sometimes rather showy about their lack of ostentation, so good at demonstrating their goodness, and the modern liberal, the social-justice warrior, has that annoying puritan inheritance.   Evangelism is different because of the proselytizing nature. Islam, requiring everyone in the world to be muslim, or die, or submit to lower status, is not evangelism but imperialism.

Just as I surmised, you like to try to twist things to your own interpretation,

Yes.  You, on the other hand, give us the LIGHT and the TRUTH.  Shall you tell us there have not been over 28,000 attacks in  the name of {omitted} since 9/11/2001?

njc wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

In order to respond to our present crisis, we must begin by realizing that both the "liberal" concept of national self-determination and the "conservative" one of Realpolitik are no longer adequate to the historical actuality that is unfolding before our eyes. And they are obsolete for the same reason: the epoch of history governed by the principle of classical sovereignty is in the process of dissolution.

is false and dangerous.  Again, a sort of move to global anarcho-socialism (Soros - Open Society) but (like MArx) needs a ruling super-sovereign to arrange it.

Sorry I missed this before.  There's no doubt that the idea is dangerous, but is it dangerous because it is false, or is it dangerous because it is true, or at least possible?  Non-state actors like Greenpeace, the Green movements at large, the Red Cross, Doctors without Borders, and shadowy actors like the movements that Soros finances are influencing events and infringing on state sovereignty.  The USSR poured billions into 'popular' movements around the world, and influenced events with horrible consequences, even (or especially) in the USA.

You probably don't like Philip Bobbitt's analysis (The Shield of Achilles) but it's hard to argue with his history.  The state as we know it, with rigid borders and full control of lands within them, came into existence over a century or two and while it is all we know, it is not all that has ever been.  And that means that when the circumstances that allowed it to be change, it will change.  The choice facing us is whether it changes by our choice, within the state system, or by the choice of its enemies, outside the state system.

I prefer to preserve and buttress the state system, but that will mean recognizing, acknowledging, understanding, and adapting to the things that threaten it.

Anarchism, in the sense of deliberate lack of sovereign control, variously and usually ill-defined, is the worst of political delusions - you do know that Marxism is Anarchism? Islam is also Anarchism but by means of theocratic teaching of good people to do good things, so long as society gets rid of all those bad -- incorrigibly infidel -- people.

Re: The Shield of Achilles is a good example of: by remembering history, set out of context to the demands of the times, we condemn ourselves to try repeat it and fail. [see Mussolini]  Total War by nuclear weapons, for example, presents a moral issue not fathomable in Bronze-Age Ilium.

njc wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

... second level understanding it means that faith does not require ostentation, and contrariwise puritans were sometimes rather showy about their lack of ostentation, so good at demonstrating their goodness, and the modern liberal, the social-justice warrior, has that annoying puritan inheritance.   ...

Interesting.  A day or two ago I was mulling Haidt and Moral Foundations Theory.

Now, I've got a pair of dots to introduce, and then to connect.

A brief summary, backwards:  Haidt is a modern, social sciences academic who pulled the rug out from under himself.  To verify his ideas, he and his students devised a questionnaire.  Its most famous question is (paraphrased) "Your beloved dog has been hit by a car.  One of your children suggests eating it.  Do you think this is a good idea?"  But wait, there's more ...

Haidt and his students gave the questionnaire to a large number of people, asking also if they were liberal or conservative.  After they filled it out, they were given a second, identical copy, with the instructions that if they were liberal, they should fill it out as they believed a conservative would, and if they were conservative, they should fill it out as though a liberal would.

[...]

So ... how did liberals and conservatives do in answering in each others' shoes?  The liberals did poorly, with answer ranges all over the map.  The conservatives did well--not perfectly, but well.

[...]

Haidt was testing an idea with this: That there is a set of moral principles more or less common to human nature, and that conservatives care about one subset, and liberals care about another.  But here's the kicker, and Haidt has the numbers to back it: Conservatives care about all six of the categories that Haidt identified, and modern liberals only care about two--and cannot recognize the other four, so that any balancing of interests between their two and the other four looks to them like moral abdication.

The six foundations are

  • Caring vs. Harm

  • Fairness vs. Cheating

  • Liberty vs. Oppression

  • Loyalty vs. Betrayal

  • Authority vs. Subversion

  • Sanctity vs. Degradation

This is a capsule summary, and omits detail.  For example, Haidt links kindness with caring, and respect with authority.  (Haidt's work, and conclusions, are described in his book The Righteous Mind.)

[...]

Dot connection:  Here's the kicker--virtue signalling is a loyalty mechanism.  It's an instinctive (or, as Haidt would say, intuitive) reaction, stemming from the way human nature works.

Even as they reject the virtues they don't understand, they are adhering to them.

As before, I think you are being led down the wrong path in this approach.  Start with Piaget and end with Pinker and Wilson and, well, that's still a start. The moral sense within the context of nature vs. nurture is nature.  Consider in the broadest possible way all the things all men, regardless of the societies in which they are situated, do and induce from that how and why an individual would evolve his mind around morality, rather than a more obvious deductive utility.

Here's a list:

http://www.mindmelding.com/Human%20Universals.htm

These are things evolution has given the human species in order to better survive.
It is a complex array of universals an individual must know without being able to know empirically himself.

I don't have an answer to why the leftist-liberal of today (i.e., stripped of any Christian base), virtually denying the existence of any objectifiable moral sense, still has such a high horse from which he pontificates.

njc wrote:

Most of what I know of Harris is the World_Historical Gamble analysis.  It, and especially the Fantasy Ideology component of it, seem to me to address things not addressed elsewhere.  Whether they are correct or not is, of course, a different question.

It's true that Harris draws on an observation by Marx to illuminate part of the analysis.  But that component is small enough that it can be true even if Marx's larger analyses are false, even grossly false.

So, is Harris right, or near right, or right-as-far-as-he-goes, in his claims on the points of Fantasy Ideology and non-Clausewitean actors?   These seem to me to be his major contributions.

We have the benefit of hindsight unlike writing on the Iraq War in 2003 but (1) historical determinism is false; Marxian historical determinism is false and dangerous; (2) The Iraq War was simple - we were already in a state of normal-sovereign-territory war with Hussein's Iraq (it was 100% international-law legal - unlike Afghanistan), and it was the best (and still best) battleground to fight jihadists. 

In order to respond to our present crisis, we must begin by realizing that both the "liberal" concept of national self-determination and the "conservative" one of Realpolitik are no longer adequate to the historical actuality that is unfolding before our eyes. And they are obsolete for the same reason: the epoch of history governed by the principle of classical sovereignty is in the process of dissolution.

is false and dangerous.  Again, a sort of move to global anarcho-socialism (Soros - Open Society) but (like MArx) needs a ruling super-sovereign to arrange it.

njc wrote:

Fascinating essay by Lee Harris.  It's not the first place he's used this idea--the first place I saw it, years ago, was in the World-Historical Gamble essay.  But the idea that there is a force that cannot be bent to reason, driving non-Clausewitzean conflicts, is important enough that if it is true, there is no way to face the problem without acknowledging the idea.

Harris is wrong in the furtherance of his analysis, and it is better, if not complete, to view islam as a political movement and not a religion. In this country which tolerates a multiplicity of religions and political beliefs up to the point of conduct limits, there is actually no difference on whether a non-muslim views islam as a religion or a political ideology except for the fact this country has a culture of super-tolerance for religious beliefs over political beliefs, and the constitutional tests for government-religion interaction are more lax than for government-politics interaction. Harris wants to minimize the Pearl Harbor parallel [there's Shinto complicity, of course] when it is almost an exact match even if the strategy for war must be different.

Moreover, Harris, Dawkins, [the late] Hitchens, are atheists who believe in a squishy anarcho-socialist, materialist, anti-causality/pro-determinism fantasy ideology.

njc wrote:

That goes after one part of the chain.  The start of the chain is the ideal of violent jihad.  Discredit the idea and the problem fades away.

And that requires defining islam for what it is: an ideology for totalitarianism and imperialism.

vern wrote:
Charles F Bell wrote:

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

So, you do agree with me that organized religion is the problem.

Actually, I think you said white heterosexual male Protestant Americans is the problem, or was that someone to whose mind you have melded?

vern wrote:

Unfortunately, none of the major religions adhere to the philosophy set forth in the quote. You need only go to any denominational gathering or tune into any televangelist or any event where they offer up a prayer to confirm it. No, I don't really expect you to say so -- on the contrary, you'll most likely twist it around to say something else -- but you might try it in the hopes of giving me a heart attack. Take care. Vern

Matthew 6:6 within the first level of understanding means that followers of a minority faith should lie low and even be secretive, and if the God of that faith has any power to hear prayer, he will do so.  At a broader, second level understanding it means that faith does not require ostentation, and contrariwise puritans were sometimes rather showy about their lack of ostentation, so good at demonstrating their goodness, and the modern liberal, the social-justice warrior, has that annoying puritan inheritance.   Evangelism is different because of the proselytizing nature. Islam, requiring everyone in the world to be muslim, or die, or submit to lower status, is not evangelism but imperialism.

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max keanu wrote:

http://blog.janicehardy.com/2015/05/why … iters.html

Using this? Give me your opinion on Microsoft ONENOTE for writing 30K-50K word novels. TX

The author says it a good idea for one who thinks he needs something like scrivener to write his novel: namely, so complicated in plots and characters, etc., the author himself cannot keep up. I prefer to read and write fiction that does not need such organization = something more than a microwave meal and less than a 5-course banquet - something requiring an outline, maybe.  OneNote is good for scattered pieces of research here and there that I used to put into individual text files and eventually lost track of or ended up on a dead computer and can now be easily gathered together across computers and in/out a Cloud.

njc wrote:

In fairness, there are Muslim groups speaking out against the warrior readings of their sacred texts.  The Clarion Project has a page with a list.  Given how firmly tCP and its principal speak out against the aggressors, I think the list is reliable.  There's an interview by tCP with the principal of the Center for Islamic Pluralism which does not go in depth into why he (a Sufi) and others believe that the warrior reading of those texts is wrong.

To be truthful, no one of the general population understands the warrior unless of a class he brings material success to that population. "Warrior readings of islamic text" only brings to mind that personal Sharia does not demand it, and the idea of suicidal action for no material gain for anyone is "crazy,"  in the same way it was for the Allied soldier to storm the beaches of Normandy on D-day.

To defeat-- at  the very least slow down to ineffectual -- the islamic enemy we must seek out and destroy every muslim warrior on earth to show the general-population non-warrior muslim that it is indeed 'crazy' to fight the infidel. {Imagine a conclusion to WWII after an Allied defeat on D-Day.} There was a time, from WWII to the Soviet defeat in Afghanistan, when America sought out and fought on a strategic basis every socialist warrior until, we might have thought, socialism stood dead in the water. However, evil does not ever go away but rather dissipates for a while to regroup later. There has been that utopian streak in American consciousness's where there is an idyllic future in which evil has been eradicated and we can just relax to pursue the American dream of working hard, paying bills, and being charitable, but I'd like every muslim, catholic, and any sort of immigrant, who has some perverse notion that American culture is not born of a blessed blend of Aristotle and Protestant Christianity,  to read a user agreement and acknowledge understanding to faithfully uphold:

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

corra wrote:

― Anne Sexton

To Liverpool socialist MP Bessie Braddock, who told him, "Winston, you're drunk.":
Bessie, you're ugly. And tomorrow morning I'll be sober, but you'll still be ugly.

― Winston Churchill

njc wrote:

Oh, if you heard in the media that the atrocity was committed with an AR-15, you were lied to.

They failed to mention {except Fox, once} that the slaughter the muslim fighter intended (see: nightclub in Paris in which 100 were killed but those muslims intended only to take hostages at the outset)  was stopped when he was met by an armed security guard who forced retreat to the restrooms, not good for the victims-hostages who retreated to there but who were far fewer in number and somewhat protected by barriers.

Jihadist death toll on U.S. soil after 9/11 under Bush: 0; death toll under Obama: 91.

jack the knife wrote:

You inserted a line in your quote of my post that I never wrote, C.F.B.  Doesn't help your bona fides. And I'm outta this ranting mishmash of vitriol disguised as intellectual debate. Yikes! Spend more time writing than posting this drivel, and you'll be better off. But maybe not.

That misplaced line of my response was created by a misplaced closed-quote marker:

Quote You: Philosophically, NJC, you propose an unequal debate. And that's precisely why Trump is as popular as he is. All he has to do is rant one-liners, - close quote

Quote Me: One line of truth, poorly presented, is worth more than the lies, so well presented,  you want to believe from Obama - close quote.

This is research for my next book, Willoughby, coming soon, on whether an army of cowards on the side of evil can defeat a brave individual on the side of good.

njc wrote:

Yes, though I think it was more a separation of powers than a true separation.

No. Or you might be splitting hairs.

njc wrote:

IIRC, in Albion's Seed, David Hackett describes a distinct lack of tolerance within each colony.  To be fair, these colonies had each been established in part to allow adherents to get away from those adhering differently.


Yes, exactly.  That was to be the point of federalism and shared dual sovereignty which began to expire as a concept with the entry of Utah into the union so long as Church LDS got the word from God polygamy was no loner acceptable, and prior to that, of course, by the War of the North Against the South.

vern wrote:
njc wrote:

Vern, surely you know that a dismissal is not a reasoned argument?  It's an admission of defeat in logic, combined with an appeal to like-minded people to simply ignore the child in the room.

On the basis of the reasoned and difficult discussions that CFB and I have had, I can assure you that he is no child.  If he is in error, he deserves arguments to convince, not arguments of 'everyone knows' meant to convince.  The danger of such arguments is that he might convince you.

Well, if you've kept up with past threads, you would know that CFB and I too have had pages upon pages of what you might call discussions/arguments. I am well aware that CFB is no child and has a good level of intelligence, but then "A mind is a terrible thing to waste" don't you think. CFB accepts no evidence and gives no quarter; he is like arguing with a sign post and if you continue to argue with a sign post, you should at least be able to read it. His words are nothing more than what he likes to accuse others of, mainly ad hominem or in his case more like ad hockey. My lapse of logic in this thread was to think that just maybe he had come to his senses and actually paid attention to what was said on both sides. Alas, a miracle didn't happen. He, therefore deserves nothing more than what I presented and probably not even that acknowledgement. Perhaps I've learned a lesson, but probably not; sometimes I just need a laugh. Take care. Vern

Re: assertion Obama - FDR / How can the enemy be defeated when the head of government and commander in chief is sympathetic to the enemy?/ Your talking points are just robotic justification by distraction to do nothing about coerced global cultural islamification.

Excuse me that I gave the benefit of the doubt for some basic understanding of American history during the progressive era. In economic policy there was no difference between FDR and Mussolini except on the nature of their respective capitalist systems (Italy, weak;U.S.A. strong)  As to Islam, what part of the fact that Mohammed, a thief, a murderer, a pedophile, took every bit of primitivism of Judaism, ignored Christianity except to name Jesus as a prophet,  to fashion not a religion but a bellicose territorial expansion strategy -- that every new convert from Khan to the Ottomans knew very well -- have you ever researched?  I can't teach one who knows nothing.

jack the knife wrote:

Philosophically, NJC, you propose an unequal debate. And that's precisely why Trump is as popular as he is. All he has to do is rant one-liners,


One line of truth, poorly presented, is worth more than the lies, so well presented,  you want to believe from Obama.

and his opponents have to come up with reasoned arguments why what he says is false? One side has to do all the itemizing? Charles made statements, not backed up by argument at all,

Excuse me that I gave the benefit of the doubt for some basic understanding of American history during the progressive era. In economic policy there was no difference between FDR and Mussolini except on the nature of their respective capitalist systems (Italy, weak;U.S.A. strong)  As to Islam, what part of the fact that Mohammed, a thief, a murderer, a pedophile, took every bit of primitivism of Judaism, ignored Christianity except to name Jesus as a prophet,  to fashion not a religion but a bellicose territorial expansion strategy -- that every new convert from Khan to the Ottomans knew very well -- have you ever researched?  I can't teach one who knows nothing.

njc wrote:

Incidentally, Fascism is a certain kind of government that became popular in the twentieth century and arguably continues today.  (Walter Russell Meade asks if today's China may be the first successful fascist government.)  To apply the term to a government of the Middle Ages is a category error: the notion of Fascism does not apply, any more than Whiggism or the Summer of Love.

The separation of God and Caesar is a modern idea (though of course it is so named in the Gospels--and Caesar did not agree).  And not just in Europe; in the modern Judge Dee stories, van Gulik notes in the introductory matter (of various of the novels) of how, although Buddhism and Taoism were tolerated, the original Judge Dee stories made them the villians and attributed various active moral defects to them.

It was a tenet of Puritan Anglicanism that the separation of Church and State followed Christ's advice to render unto Caesar ...  I believe 17th-century Algernon Sidney {"god helps those who help themselves"} is a good reference for this.

Memphis Trace wrote:
njc wrote:

Vern, surely you know that a dismissal is not a reasoned argument?  It's an admission of defeat in logic, combined with an appeal to like-minded people to simply ignore the child in the room.

On the basis of the reasoned and difficult discussions that CFB and I have had, I can assure you that he is no child.  If he is in error, he deserves arguments to convince, not arguments of 'everyone knows' meant to convince.  The danger of such arguments is that he might convince you.

I saw nothing in CFB's rant except unsupported childish opinion and name calling. It was barely worth Vern's effort to dismiss it. Where was there any logic to defeat?

Memphis Trace

By the definition of corporatist socialism/fascism  presented by Mussolini and copied by Hitler, was not FDR and his NRA and panoply of social-controlled economy also not such a corporatist? 

Planned industrial “harmony.” Another keystone of Italian corporatism was the idea that the government’s interventions in the economy should not be conducted on an ad hoc basis, but should be “coordinated” by some kind of central planning board. Government intervention in Italy was “too diverse, varied, contrasting. There has been disorganic . . . intervention, case by case, as the need arises,” Mussolini complained in 1935.[9] Fascism would correct this by directing the economy toward “certain fixed objectives” and would “introduce order in the economic field.”[10] Corporatist planning, according to Mussolini adviser Fausto Pitigliani, would give government intervention in the Italian economy a certain “unity of aim,” as defined by the government planners.  https://fee.org/articles/economic-fascism/

Therefore, what of my "rant" that the enemy cannot be defeated when our head of state and commander-in-chief is sympathetic to the enemy in some important particular ways is demonstrably incorrect?

“The sweetest sound I know is the Muslim call to prayer”

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/201 … z4BbJo1HZm

“America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles of justice and progress, tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.”

Memphis Trace wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
Memphis Trace wrote:

A thousand years ago, it was Muslims who were stunned by the savagery of Christian radicals:

Interesting. I didn't know MSNBC has been around that long.  And Sunday morning? Who was the savage? Christian or muslim?

What does MSNBC have to do with the Crusades?

Disinformation by distraction away from the issue.

Memphis Trace wrote:

Islamic fascists have a lot more Sunday mornings to go like this past Sunday morning to catch up to the Christian fascists of the Crusades.

Memphis Trace

Again, I ask, today, not a thousand years ago or even a century ago, who was the savage, the muslim, or the Christians and heathens? And are you really suggesting that muslims are justified in such victimization because they ought to "catch up" in savagery?

Which religion has its canonical law, Sharia, written into official practice in 11 countries such that homosexuals are killed?