Topic: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

We've been here before, but can someone tell me or point me to the strict rules for stealing ideas from other novels/media. I took Cinderella and ran her through a revision that I know tramples on no author's claims. NOw I want to take/steal a plot from a 1990's TV drama (British, Inspector Morse) and run it two-hundred years into the future, change all names, locations, etc., but the basic plot of misdirection of an investigation and the methods of the murderer's actions remain the same. I consider Anthony Minghella's basic plot a template for me to use and expand upon.

I seem to remember someone here stating that a percentage of a plot could be taken, etc.

THANK YOU

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

Plagiarism is a legal concept. It is not subject to opinion. If you do it and you fit within the definition, you will be sued and the author will win.  If you want to know its legal boundaries, here is a good summary of the law: http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/plagiarism/ 

My wife was personally affected by someone who believed as you do, and allow me to tell you the results. My wife wrote an article in her professional field and it was published in a major journal in her field. It also caused a positive response in her field. Someone who felt it was a good idea took the idea and made it his own as part of a textbook. My wife's publisher found out about it and sued the author and his publisher. The results: The publisher had to pay a percentage of all royalties they collected from the sale of the book to my wife and the author had to pay them back everything they lost. Then, all the existing copies not sold had to be destroyed. Thereafter, several dozen additional authors used my wife's work in their textbooks. They all paid her royalties for the use of her ideas. She got her last royalty check over 20 years after she wrote the article.

Someone tried to sue me for "using their book title for my own." Titles are not copyright unless there was intent to make a profit from using it in the same field to create confusion. We wrote about totally different topics and my use was coincidence. I had never heard of him or his book. Also, his was called The Merry-Go-Round and mine was called Stop the Merry-Go-Round. I could say, tongue-in-cheek: Not my carnival; not my merry-go-round.

Hope this information is helpful. By the way, you can't steal a plot. There are a finite number of plots. You can write about bank robberies even though many of the great genre writers of police procedurals have done so. You can steal characters, dialogue, stories, styles, narration. Someday try stealing Mickey Mouse and you will discover a side of Disney that Annette Funicello never saw!

3 (edited by vern 2016-06-23 23:24:56)

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

Ideas can't be copyrighted. There are only seven basic plots (plus or minus depending on who does the categorizing) and they have all been done thousands of times, so there is no copyright on a plot, else every author in the world would be sued every time they published a book. You can't copy characters and you can't take  large excerpts or strings of original wording verbatim from other works, but you can certainly rearrange them to your own version of an old story.

A case in point which I thought would surely go to the plaintiff, but didn't, was when the authors of Holy Blood Holy Grail (non-fiction) sued Dan Brown over The Da Vinci Code (fiction). Having read Holy Blood Holy Grail first, I thought that Brown had taken quite liberally from the text of that book. Large areas of quoted research were very similar as well as the basic premise of Jesus' blood line continuing after having a child with Mary Magdalene. The courts ruled in Brown's favor. Of course someone could probably point out a different outcome for other suits, but if you use your own words to recast a story, you should be on fairly safe ground. That is not to say that someone couldn't bring a nuisance suit to try to deter you. Take care. Vern

Edited for PS: As stated in the Copyright Act: In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.

4 (edited by rhiannon 2016-06-23 23:45:49)

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

The only thing I'd add to Vern is that there aren't just seven plots.  There are 1 (Don Webb of Bewildering Stories), 2 (Aristotle), 7, (Christopher Booker), 36 (Carlos Grazzi), 69 (Rudyard Kipling), and "thousands and thousands." Recently, Matthew Jackson (University of Nebraska) created a computer program and analyzed thousands of novels, short stories, etc., concluded that there were really only two.  Not Aristotle's two:  his were:  solving a conflict through physical force and solving a problem by mental force.  Jackson's were:  "Man on a Hill" (The Great Gatsby), "Man in a hole" (Ahab).  Don Webb's was:  "there's a problem, there is an attempt to solve it."  Booker's, which Vern is probably thinking of, were:  rags to riches, overcoming the monster, the quest, voyage and return, comedy, tragedy, rebirth.  Ronald Tobias thought there were 20.  I'd list Tobias' but I'm tired.

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

rhiannon wrote:

[...] rags to riches, overcoming the monster, the quest, voyage and return, comedy, tragedy, rebirth.  Ronald Tobias thought there were 20.  I'd list Tobias' but I'm tired.

And the way this bulls*** works is: if a novel does not have a plot of one these types, "it has no plot."  A story has a conflict, or it is just telling of some facts, real or made up. A story has structure, an arc of development, from beginning to end, because human understanding (by  the reader) must have context put to facts.  Unless "plot" only means the story being told within a defined structure, that is, logically plotted out by the author, the word "plot" is a teaching device for the ignorant. If you ask: what should I write about? Ronald Tobias says:

Quest
Adventure
Pursuit
Rescue
Escape
Revenge
The Riddle
Rivalry
Underdog
Temptation
Metamorphosis
Transformation
Maturation
Love
Forbidden Love
Sacrifice
Discovery
Wretched Excess
Ascension
Descension.

And you say: okay, thanks.

As a generality, Aristotle has it right for a story told: solving a conflict through physical force and solving a problem by mental force, but I'd quibble on the fact that a good story need not have the conflict resolved, there possibly being meaning in unresolved conflict, or the conflict resolved by one or the other of physical and mental means.

6 (edited by max keanu 2016-06-24 17:19:14)

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

vern wrote:

Ideas can't be copyrighted. There are only seven basic plots (plus or minus depending on who does the categorizing) and they have all been done thousands of times, so there is no copyright on a plot, else every author in the world would be sued every time they published a book. You can't copy characters and you can't take  large excerpts or strings of original wording verbatim from other works, but you can certainly rearrange them to your own version of an old story.
.

Thank you Vern! As I think about the plot I'm developing it does fall into a category of a plot of complete misdirection of the MC using a red herring... and this type of plot has been written thousands of times.

Thanks for all the responses and the link. From your information I think I can glom together variations on a theme without infringing on another author.

BTW Charles - I did make you moderator of Lit Fiction.  Errare humanum est, in errore perservare stultum wink

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

max keanu wrote:

BTW Charles - I did make you moderator of Lit Fiction.  Errare humanum est, in errore perservare stultum wink

Bellum in Gallia malum, sed in matella taetrum.

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

Charles_F_Bell wrote:
max keanu wrote:

BTW Charles - I did make you moderator of Lit Fiction.  Errare humanum est, in errore perservare stultum wink

Bellum in Gallia malum, sed in matella taetrum.

I Googled and came up with the Latin phrase, but in doing so discovered Petronius's Satyricon. Have you read this? Interesting in so many ways.

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

max keanu wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
max keanu wrote:

BTW Charles - I did make you moderator of Lit Fiction.  Errare humanum est, in errore perservare stultum wink

Bellum in Gallia malum, sed in matella taetrum.

I Googled and came up with the Latin phrase, but in doing so discovered Petronius's Satyricon. Have you read this? Interesting in so many ways.

Like an ancient Roman Reality TV show spiced with satire. Interesting how Augustus' top-down moral revolution had minimal effect within two generations.

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

Charles_F_Bell wrote:
max keanu wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Bellum in Gallia malum, sed in matella taetrum.

I Googled and came up with the Latin phrase, but in doing so discovered Petronius's Satyricon. Have you read this? Interesting in so many ways.

Like an ancient Roman Reality TV show spiced with satire. Interesting how Augustus' top-down moral revolution had minimal effect within two generations.

There was such a show.  I, Claudius.

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

I'm not really a Romaniphile, but I once read Juvenal's Satires and to this day I can still recall his biting wit regarding the morals & ethics of the powers that be at that time (100 -200 A.D... I think).

I wondering if Trump as El Presidente would institute a top-down moral revolution... I'm being facetious.

I, Claudius-- great! What a book!  Truly admired the author's vast grasp of that time and society.

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

max keanu wrote:

I'm not really a Romaniphile, but I once read Juvenal's Satires and to this day I can still recall his biting wit regarding the morals & ethics of the powers that be at that time (100 -200 A.D... I think).

I wondering if Trump as El Presidente would institute a top-down moral revolution...

The Romans knew how to build and maintain big, beautiful walls to greet "immigrants" for three centuries.

If there could be a parallel, Trump would be Julius Caesar and his son, Eric, Octavian/Augustus Caesar. 

Cato - Ted Cruz
Brutus - Mitt Romney
Pompey - Harry Reid
Crassus - Mitch McConnell
Chris Hemsworth as Thor as Marc Antony
Kim Kardashian as Cleopatra

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Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

Is there a parallel to Carthago delenda est! ?

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

njc wrote:

Is there a parallel to Carthago delenda est! ?

In reality there is no such thing as historical determinism. Even the extent of Total War has been altered by the known knowns and the known unknowns of Nuclear War. Making Mecca and Medina Hiroshima and Nagasaki to extirpate Islam somehow doesn't fit Carthago delenda est! as a practical solution. Making the aftermath of such a war the subject of scifi fiction I can see as publishable, but of that fictional war and the reasons and effectiveness for it not publishable.

15

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

I wasn't thinking of that, though OSCard used it in the later books of the Enderverse.  I was thinking more of politicians determined to gut this or another piece of law or public policy, or perhaps their political opponents.

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

njc wrote:

I wasn't thinking of that, though OSCard used it in the later books of the Enderverse.  I was thinking more of politicians determined to gut this or another piece of law or public policy, or perhaps their political opponents.

That's far from salt-the-earth policy.

17

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

But it is pursued ruthlessly and with single mind, and the effects on the course of debate and policy can be just as drastic.

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

Charles_F_Bell wrote:
max keanu wrote:

Cato - Ted Cruz
Brutus - Mitt Romney
Pompey - Harry Reid
Crassus - Mitch McConnell
Chris Hemsworth as Thor as Marc Antony
Kim Kardashian as Cleopatra

Where does Chris Christie fit into this cast of renowns? Warren Buffet, the Koch Bros. Stephen Hawking, etc. It would be a wonderful to be able to equate famous figures of antiquity to contemporary persons with a simple click of the mouse. History's lessons of evil and dastardly might be repeated less and less it this were possible. Perhaps I need to shine up my coding skills and write the WHO WAS THIS PERSON LIKE IN HISTORY app... or perhaps this already exists outside of the study of humanities.

Re: PLAGIARISM - LIMITS

max keanu wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:
max keanu wrote:

Cato - Ted Cruz
Brutus - Mitt Romney
Pompey - Harry Reid
Crassus - Mitch McConnell
Chris Hemsworth as Thor as Marc Antony
Kim Kardashian as Cleopatra

Where does Chris Christie fit into this cast of renowns? Warren Buffet, the Koch Bros. Stephen Hawking, etc. It would be a wonderful to be able to equate famous figures of antiquity to contemporary persons with a simple click of the mouse. History's lessons of evil and dastardly might be repeated less and less it this were possible. Perhaps I need to shine up my coding skills and write the WHO WAS THIS PERSON LIKE IN HISTORY app... or perhaps this already exists outside of the study of humanities.

I must apologize for ever having underestimated your keenness to grasp the obvious, for you did understand that I absolutely did mean to implicate Mitt Romney with intent to stab Donald Trump on the floor of the U.S. Senate.

Acta est fabula, plaudite.