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I actually did find a source for my remarks on Atticus's comments on women & juries:

- Atticus subverts gender conventions because of his innovative ideas about women. Atticus believes that women should have opportunities, as he demonstrates when he teaches both Jem and Scout to read. Laura Fine disagrees, maintaining that fathers in To Kill a Mockingbird “represent the oppressive patriarchal structure” (“Gender Conflicts” 123). Atticus delivers one statement that suggests this mindset: when he explains why women cannot serve on juries, he remarks, “I guess it’s to protect our frail ladies from sordid cases like Tom’s. Besides . . . I doubt if we’d ever get a complete case tried—the ladies’d be interrupting to ask questions” (234). Though this statement seems suspect, I believe that Atticus speaks with a note of sarcasm, especially since he grins after expressing it. The grin suggests that he mocks the idea that women are “frail” and should be “protected” from society’s evils. While Scout agrees with her father, commenting, “Perhaps our forefathers were wise” (234), she only makes this remark after imagining Mrs. Dubose on a jury. Scout’s response indicates that stereotypical women—such as Aunt Alexandra and her hypocritical missionary society—would impede legal proceedings. Perhaps unconventional women with more of an unbiased mind, like Scout, would benefit juries. -

Found on page 37 of Scouting for a Tomboy, by Laura Hakala located here.

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http://media1.shmoop.com/media/covers/literature/Atticus_Comic.png

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Dill Carver wrote:

Therein lay one of the baffling Atticus character enigmas that stopped me buying into the character: he was strongly opposed to inequalities in law (between men, but not women), but promoted inequalities in life.

Which is interesting, since Miss Maude tells Scout he is exactly the same in the courtroom as he is at home.

I read somewhere that Lee based Atticus on her own father and that he was, if I recall, a segregationist.

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Dill Carver wrote:

Can you imagine Atticus being completely non-fussed by say, the concept of his daughter having a black boyfriend, or marrying a black man?

Absolutely not.

Dill Carver wrote:

In this case the proposed victim happens to be an innocent black man and what most people, including Dr. King fail to observe is that Atticus is not acting because Tom is a negro, he is acting because he is on the side of right against wrong. He is helping an unfairly threatened person, period.

I agree with you.

Dill Carver wrote:

... just as he considers you and Scout to be inferior in terms of intellect when compared to a man.

A couple scholars (sorry, this isn't school, so I didn't bother citing critics when I was reading yesterday!) have suggested that the passage where Atticus remarks on women & juries may have been sarcasm. He speaks to Scout as an intelligent equal throughout, using legal terminology with her as if she is an adult. They suggest that the novel seems to criticise (through Scout's viewpoint) the ideal of Southern womanhood as something infantilizing and silly that inspires women to waves of insipidness. (Example, the women headed by Aunt Alexandra near the end of the novel meet for tea to discuss the plight of an African tribe, then contemplate the way their servants have become a bit unruly since Tom's trial. Meanwhile they have no interest at all in the Ewells of their own neighborhood or the close-to-home plight of Mayella.)

Stephanie Crawford is another example.

When referencing the moment when Atticus mocks women on juries, they note that he grins right after, and that Scout agrees with him, which suggests the two are exchanging a joke on the insipidity of the ideal "lady" in the South (a social structure) -- not women in general. They also note that one of the few times Atticus loses his cool is when Alexandra starts lecturing him about turning Scout into a lady. Which he refuses to do.

I've not revisited these passages myself yet. I'll be watching for signs of sexism during my reread later this year. Too much on my syllabus right now to give it attention. I could only read those articles yesterday because I had a rare day off, and naturally I did self-assigned homework. tongue

Just sharing. x


This is what I read yesterday:

- Ernst, Julia L. "Women In Litigation Literature: The Exoneration Of Mayella Ewell In To Kill A Mockingbird." Akron Law Review 47.(2015): 1019. LexisNexis Academic: Law Reviews. Web. 13 Mar. 2016.

- Hakala, Laura. "Scouting for a Tomboy: Gender-Bending Behaviors in Harper Lee's To Kill A Mockingbird." Digital Commons at Georgia Southern. Georgia Southern University, 2010. Web. 2016.

- Halpern, Iris. "Rape, Incest, And Harper Lee's To Kill A Mockingbird: On Alabama's Legal Construction Of Gender And Sexuality In The Context Of Racial Subordination." Columbia Journal Of Gender & Law 18.3 (2009): 743-806. Web. (I only read the part about Mayella. Half of the article is about law code in the Alabama of the era, which (sorry) I found dull.) :-)

- Jones, Carolyn. "Atticus Finch And The Mad Dog: Harper Lee's To Kill A Mockingbird."Critical Insights: To Kill A Mockingbird (2010): 145-164. Literary Reference Center. Web. 13 Mar. 2016.

- Murray, Jennifer. "More Than One Way To (Mis)Read A "Mockingbird." Southern Literary Journal 43.1 (2010): 75-91.Academic Search Complete. Web. 13 Mar. 2016.

- Phelps, Teresa Godwin. "The Margins Of Maycomb: A Rereading Of To Kill A Mockingbird."Critical Insights: To Kill A Mockingbird (2010): 165-186. Literary Reference Center. Web. 13 Mar. 2016.

- Powell, Burnele V. “A Reaction: 'Stand Up, Your Father [A Lawyer] Is Passing.'” Michigan Law Review 97.6 (1999): 1373–1375. Web.

- Shackelford, Dean. "The Female Voice In To Kill A Mockingbird: Narrative Strategies In Film And Novel." Critical Insights: To Kill A Mockingbird (2010): 222-236. Literary Reference Center. Web. 13 Mar. 2016.

-Stone, Randolph N.. “Atticus Finch, in Context”. Michigan Law Review 97.6 (1999): 1378–1381. Web.

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Unrelated to your excellent points above, Dill, I was reading & found this quote, which I thought I'd share. Not as a means to refute what has been said here. Just as a means to complement it:

- We are a nation that worships the frontier tradition, and our heroes are those who champion justice through violent retaliation against injustice. It is not simple to adopt the credo that moral force has as much strength and virtue as the capacity to return a physical blow; or to refrain from hitting back requires more will and bravery than the automatic reflexes of defense.

Yet there is something in the American ethos that responds to the strength of moral force. I am reminded of the popular and widely respected novel and film To Kill a Mockingbird. Atticus Finch, a white southern lawyer, confronts a group of his neighbors who have become a lynch-crazy mob, seeking the life of his Negro client. Finch, armed with nothing more lethal than a lawbook, disperses the mob with the force of his moral courage, aided by his small daughter, who, innocently calling the would-be lynchers by name, reminds them that they are individual men, not a pack of beasts.

To the Negro of 1963, as to Atticus Finch, it had become obvious that nonviolence could symbolize the gold badge of heroism rather than the white feather of cowardice. -

- Martin Luther King, Jr. Why We Can't Wait, 1963.

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https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/12745937_10153982473735127_684986813486491686_n.png?oh=58d41e968d32eef170cbf486429f9584&oe=574E7D43



"The task of criticism... is to install itself in the very incompleteness of the work in order to theorize it -- to explain the ideological necessity of those 'not-saids' which constitutes the very principle of its identity." ―  Terry Eagleton

“Fiction reveals truth that reality obscures.”― Jessamyn West

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Dill Carver wrote:

I realise that I am incompetent within such a forum. I left the loosely formed structure of the British Comprehensive School system for the Army at the age of fourteen days past my sixteenth birthday.  I’ve had no adult education in the academic sense and I’ve never attended University or College. I fear this has left me ill-equipped or lacking in both experience and etiquette when it comes to conducting myself within a cultured forum of discussion or debate.

You are a bright light in these forums and on this site, Dill. Your exuberance is contagious in the very best way. It would be a great loss if you change a wit.

I misunderstood. I should have just asked you what you meant the other day. I've always known you to be honest, honorable, and approachable. If there is a fault here, it is mine.

Please pardon me for my own oafishness, Dill. Your explanation about what you mean when you say "Americans" makes complete sense, and now that I know what you're talking about, I agree whole-heartedly. (I watch the news and stand equally appalled, by the way, by Trump.)

I said you had "implied," but on reflection, it's as plausible that I perceived. For that I sincerely apologize. As I said, I should have asked. But more than that, I should have known.

Please don't take anything I've said here to heart. 

I listed some of the American authors upon my shelf of favourites earlier and, M Shaara; J Shaara, Faulkner, Melville, Mitchell, Crane... possibly more; they all exist there because of your direct influence. Books that I probably would not have encountered, own and had the pleasure of, if you hadn’t recommended them. I’m not complaining, far from it. Crane? Red Badge; once read and never forgotten. Mitchell’s little ditty? Once read it becomes a part of you… it is always within your mind. The others have also expanded my mind and sense of appreciation beyond measure.

My grandmother used to send me books every Christmas. She knew, when I didn't, that I would love literature. My siblings never received books, as I recall. I'm sad to say most sat on my bookshelf unread until recently. I had no idea I was interested in literature until I came here and met you. I expected to go to college and major in creative writing. I decided to change to a literature major because you spoke so incredibly well, on such a vast array of topics, and with such rich enthusiasm. I wanted to know some of what you know, and experience writing beyond my own scribbles. I changed to a literature major because of you.

I've known Gone with the Wind and To Kill a Mockingbird nearly all my life, but that's hardly literary knowledge, and is clearly seated within America. I lack the worldly experience and ability to deeply assess literature  that you have. Our shreds are an enormous exercise for me, on that front. They've vastly improved my ability to "see" books, I think, and that is all you.

I can thank you for A Tale of Two Cities (which is, I agree, an utter masterpiece) and Hemingway (whom I found I loved after conversations with you). I didn't realize you'd read War & Peace until recently, and your comments on that novel have renewed my interest. I read half a couple years ago and I liked it, but I laid it aside one day and never got back to it. You've made me want to finish it. Likewise Tess, though your lovely oafish self quite disliked it! Your reasons for disliking it pique my curiosity. The same with Mockingbird.

I don't know what I'm talking about most of the time, Dill. I bump along like you do, and am prone to misunderstanding what is plainly obvious. I'd hate it if anything I have said here dampens your enthusiasm. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm wholly enriched by your enthusiasm.

I openhandedly admit to the crime and would only ask, in my defence that you consider my intent.

I can absolutely do that. But there was no crime, Dill. Only miscommunication.

I aim to atone for my behavior and am dedicated to the task of reigning myself in.

Don't reign in, Doc. I'd miss the bumps. x

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Hm. I am a disadvantage by not being in your head.

I explained myself poorly above, because I had slipped in here for just a moment yesterday on the way to work, and typed that out fast. I see I didn't even finish one of my sentences!

For the record, I'm also writing this quite fast, because I have to write a whole paper in about three hours tonight. So if I sound unreasonable, and dare I say it surly, please pardon me! I am speaking with heart-shaped cartoon eyes and would be all smiles in person. The other morning as well. I am typing the shorthand version of my effervescing remarks. x

Hold on a minute! When I made the comment about people being swept along following the next big media thing I had no specific national agenda! I was actually thinking about sensations like the '50 shades of grey' take-up here in the UK.

You have often (often) complained about your version of Americans (a facet of American culture?), with ardor. I generally don't care (really, I don't), but since To Kill a Mockingbird is an American book, and your illustration of its readership in this thread sounded very similar to your past illustrations of Americans (a facet of American culture, I now realize), I experienced a Pavlov echo and leapt into it as I am both American and a fan of To Kill a Mockingbird as well as The Waltons AND Little House on the Prairie. How now, sir! One can enjoy a bit of pleasant and still take a book seriously. However, I said you "implied," not that you said. Somewhere up there.

I am inclined to dismiss widespread cultural 'things' rather than a people.

True enough! I'd completely forgotten you have often remarked on favorite American writers! And I have to assume you like me, as I am a piping good egg! Widespread remarks on cultural things makes a lot more sense, given that I know you to be mighty decent. I always wondered about that inconsistency in an otherwise exemplary record. That eight-years-ago argument was left unresolved. wink

I'm stressed about everything and not myself. If I had time, I'd probably make a more sensible show in this thread. That is my story. I was reading your remarks on readers of To Kill a Mockingbird, F, while up to my elbows in Shakespeare and John Donne. Implications about the "lack of seriousness" in people who read To Kill a Mockingbird made a poor partner to my labors.

I respect your suggestion (if I've understood you right in this thread) that To Kill a Mockingbird sentimentalizes racism and makes it "palatable" for a skimmer. I don't know that I agree, but I respect the suggestion and will be thinking about it on a reread. Having thought about it away from this thread, I can concede that the book, though I don't believe it was written for this purpose, might convince people they've read enough about racism and can feel informed about it. That's an issue for sure.

I actually looked up a bunch of literary criticism on the novel this morning, to explore when I can! That's how much I've loved this conversation, which is not reflected in the bit I've said in the last couple days. I say again I appreciate your candor!

(I agree with your daughter.)

You receive a gigantic kiss on the cheek from me, though you are awfully provoking, now and then. I never am. xox

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I’m not asking anyone else to dislike the novel because I do. I’m not trying to persuade you to dislike it, I’m trying to explain to the conversation why I dislike the book. I don’t care if I’m the only one in the world who dislikes it.

I know you don't expect to convert anyone and are merely explaining your perspective. I get that. I wasn't trying to convert you either. I was speaking to the conversation too. You (within the conversation) have implied that a person who would like the book is a sentimental sheep who auto-buys silly stories about serious matters.

I've been trying to put into words what I love about the book in response to that, because I disagree that everyone who reads the book (likes the book, loves the book, buys the book) is a sentimental idiot or a person who buys based entirely on the direction of those who have determined what is politically correct. I see depth in the novel where you see void.

I should have stepped back and recognized that your position on the banality of the book's readership is completely off topic and certainly subjective in the extreme. Now you are saying that the reasons people have for liking the book are perfectly valid, that the book is not bad at all, and I'm left wondering if I've stepped into some other dimension.

I'm backing off for that reason, not because I care one iota whether or not you like the book. I love that you're sharing some piping good criticism of the novel! Sincerely, I love the way you tear it apart. Good stuff!!

I continue after eight years, though, to find your inclination to dismiss whole groups of people (particularly Americans) as fools. Oh, there are some stupid people. But I think there are some relatively excellent people, full of good thoughts, full of depth, not easily manipulated or distracted, who like To Kill a Mockingbird as well, for reasons unattended to by your grand, sweeping statements about the inanity of the book's reading base as a whole.

This is how me met and it continues to make me shake my head.

I would say more, but a commercial just came through announcing that the latest new release is out, and I have to read it and love it sentimentally because I am an American and generally follow the lead I see in the media. Baaaaaa. x

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I don't quite understand why a flawed character means the book is bad, if I'm frank. I don't understand at all! I think great literature is filled with flawed characters and unfinished business and a lot of "this is simply not enough" undertones which force one to consider what might be enough. I don't think Atticus is at all a stock character. Maybe I'll change my mind on a reread. I think the flaws you cite (Dill) only complicate his character.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm no Sydney Carton. I'm not a force. I'm not a hero. I'm an inadequate mess of flaws who speaks the wrong thing as often as I stumble upon something right. We need our Sydney Cartons in literature, absolutely. They thrill the soul, they pound the heart. But life is for the rest of us, as well. I think Atticus is so loved because somehow, despite his enormous imperfection, he does try to do the right thing. I think perhaps I like him because he is not Sydney Carton. (Although he was imperfect too, wasn't he?)

When Atticus stays with Tom Robinson at the jail to face off the crowd who wants to lynch him, he is Sydney Carton, if only for a moment, in my book. Then Scout stands between her father and the crowd, and her gentle words push them home. It's the way her friendship with them shames them, and reminds them of their own humanity, that makes the book for me.

To Kill a Mockingbird is no grand epic, like A Tale of Two Cities. It's a small book which offered a spark of hope fifty years ago, and for me, it continues to live on that flare. Perhaps because of the very things which make you dislike it, Dill. Atticus is flawed -- absolutely. His courage is born out of flaws, and it is sometimes misplaced. I imagine a man slightly stooped when I read him, his shoulders bearing the weight of day after day of legal drudgery. I think he is probably rather boring in person, with a voice one has to lean into to catch. He is likely bookish half because he'd like to be left alone. His hair is probably sprinkled with silver. His children watch him wryly, amazed that he can survive the night given his age. He doesn't look like a hero, and he doesn't act like a hero. I imagine a lot of sadness in him, which is never shown in the pages. His wife is gone, and it is his task to raise his daughter alone. He relies on Calpurnia, and he does the best he can for Scout, not really understanding her but (I think) wanting desperately to do right by her. He's a simple man who is assigned the job, "Defend Tom Robinson." He does so within his scope of integrity and ability.

It is not enough. That is implicit in every line of the book, for me. And if readers have rallied around Atticus and placed laurels on his head, it is perhaps because they identify with him. He is absolutely not enough.

Nor is this book. It can't tell the whole story! Nor should that burden be placed on it, I think. It's a voice within a sea of voices, which is what I so love about literature. I've said I read the classics like primary documents. That's this book for me.  It's a voice within the larger story. A part of the tapestry of literature and history. That may be a flawed way to read? Perhaps I will refine with more books.

I'll be taking another peek at Mockingbird, Dill, based on your criticism here, as well as my read of Go Set a Watchman. I'm afraid I'm not as good at the critical thinking thing as you are, or perhaps I just take a different angle. I sometimes have to read a book a few times to begin to take it apart. I hadn't really read literature until a couple years after joining this site, so I'm fairly new at it and bumble along at it in my unrefined but well-meaning way. I do love that you've pointed out so much in the book to be criticized.

I think I'll be the one to bow out of this conversation now. I've said how I feel, which I fear may be labeled "sentimental" or sheeplike, and I'm just not in the right frame of mind to take that in good humor. There's really nothing left to say on my end but that I continue to like the book, which I do!

It's been a rich conversation for me, gentlemen. Truly! smile

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I hadn't read the articles you cited above, Dill, when I commented. I thought I'd share my thoughts having just read them. I got the most from the first one linked (Jezebel). I typed as I read:

... [Mockingbird is] about powerful white people being very polite—and that counting as good politics, without any charge or assertion that anything might really change in the power structure of the town.

This is why I keep pointing out the Mayella story, which also remains unresolved. I think Lee was creating a mirror in Mockingbird -- reflecting back the reality of things as they looked in the South, even the apparently noble things. I don't think she intended to suggest that Atticus was a hero. I think she intended to offer his viewpoint as one among many that Scout was seeing as a child, and to suggest that Scout believed he was a hero.

In many ways, Atticus’s subtle racism in Mockingbird is the story’s brilliance.

Yes.

Go Set a Watchman, in comparison, is unsubtle—but its passion and roughness are its charm. Where Mockingbird is polite, Watchman is rude.

Yes! I said nearly exactly this when I read it!

In Watchman, Lee quits being subtle about sexism, too.

I'm curious about this. I sensed sexism in Mockingbird, but from Alexandra, not Atticus, and I didn't find it at all subtle. I found it explicit.

If there’s any ambiguity about the natural extension of Atticus’s beliefs, when Jem burrows into his anger, he says Mayella Ewell is surely lying about being raped by Tom Robinson because for rape to count “you had to kick and holler, you had to be overpowered and stomped on, preferably knocked stone cold.” Rape is only rape if there’s visible proof. Girls, being girls, imagine things.

YES.

Interestingly enough, Jean Louise in Watchman is the only character out of either book who pushes strongly against these ideas of fixed microscopic divisions; in Mockingbird, Scout tosses around as many of the “he’s a Ewell, so he’s unclean” explanations as anyone else.

Yes, because she's still trying to rise out of that way of thinking (I think.) That's the point.

Watchman, in young Scout’s progression, still shows the promise in Atticus’s flawed views. Jean Louise got free from the determinism espoused by her family and Maycomb itself. She did this because she believed in Mockingbird Atticus—and crucially, grew up to see his limits and transcend them.

Yep. Like I have said, she is the hero, not Atticus.

"The virtue that Atticus represents—respect, and especially respect for privacy and eccentricity—is a virtue that makes change more difficult because it fails to question social forms that, Lee shows, are a significant part of racism."

(the article is quoting Jane Smiley)

YES.

Charles J. Shields, the author of Lee’s biography, Mockingbird, sees an image from the first chapter of Go Set A Watchman as an eloquent comment on the reception of the novel in the ’50s. “I think it’s a great metaphor that the train overshoots the station,” he says, referring to Scout’s arrival in Maycomb County, “almost as though the train itself was reluctant to stop.”

Interesting!!

Yes -- all of this is what I've been trying to say, but perhaps haven't been saying well.

Dill, I wonder if we've been more on the same page than I thought in this conversation? I can't tell if you're arguing that Mockingbird is all bad, or that people are ridiculous because they don't see what is clearly there and ought to be interpreted more deeply? If the latter, I hardily agree and stand "guity" (ha!) as charged. If the former, I'm not sure I agree, but I remain a work in progress. smile

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I'm currently in a class on Shakespeare, and I had the most interesting discussion with my professor a couple days ago. We're reading Richard III. I asked my prof if Richard III was written as propaganda for the Lancaster side, since I believe the monarch at the time would have been directly descended from Henry VII, who claims the throne at the end of the play. I said that Richard is written as a heinous villain, while Henry VII is written as a heroic figure. It seemed to me that the tale (though I love it) had a rather obvious "this is the good side, this is the bad side" mentality, which smelled of propaganda.

My prof pointed out that the entire first part of the play displays an evil man pretending to be pious. We get to see Richard III's violent thoughts. He comports himself as something otherwise. So to see Henry VII comporting himself as a golden figure would inspire one reading deeply (or watching the play deeply) to ask him or herself if we can actually trust Henry VII's outward demeanor. Which was perhaps Shakespeare's point. I think in great literature much is beneath the surface which doesn't seem obvious at first. Richard III through my eyes appeared rather like (well written) propaganda. But I missed the point beneath the surface. I think that great literature grows like that, on rereads. Or perhaps it is only me who must read and read again to see it.

As I've said, I don't know that Mockingbird is great literature. But I do know Richard III looked like one sort of story to me a few days ago, and it feels ever so much more meaningful, now.

I didn't notice the racism in the line Dill cites when I was a child. (And I agree it is ENORMOUSLY racist.) I have very little memory of reading the book then -- just a ghost awareness of it. I recall a lot of Scout's doings from my early read, and I think I must have been focused there when I read the book.  I simply liked the Scout scenes (as a little girl, she was my contemporary), the spookiness of the Boo part of the story, the way he'd leave them presents, the idea that what had seemed scary wasn't at all what Scout had built up in her mind, the coming of age tale, the conversations with Atticus, the going to school. I'm not sure that in my first read I ever made it to the Tom Robinson scenes, so my first read is not actually a first read, probably. I do recall the "mockingbird" line at the end of the book, so maybe I skipped ahead, or maybe the other scenes didn't stick.

I only read it a second time in 2013. I did notice the strange line cited by Dill, but it was so brief it didn't impact me. (I am ashamed to say.) It slipped in as a strange remark. I was so caught up in the story I quickly forgot about it. I wasn't deeply reading. I read the book as a means to pass the time -- with a curiosity about this classic novel I was sure I'd read before, which my mother loved, which I could barely remember.

I didn't know where the story was headed. I was very disturbed by the Mayella part of the novel. That part affected me deeply. I spent a lot of time grinning about the Scout scenes. I didn't notice much in Atticus to be questioned. I liked (loved) that though it was enormously dangerous and certainly potentially damaging to his career, he stood up for what he believed was right. That's what I noticed about Atticus; that's what made him, for me, heroic. I liked to believe he was heroic. It made me feel happy to think such a man could exist. I was glad to believe in Atticus.

I wasn't going to read Watchman when I heard about it. I had an idea that Ms. Lee had been treated badly by someone, that her early draft of Mockingbird had been stolen from her after her sister's death, that they'd published the thing against her wishes because she was incapacitated by age. To me the whole thing stank of abuse. Then I read that she was expressing sorrow at this reaction among readers of Mockingbird, and that the state had investigated charges of abuse, and that she'd been found lucid, and I was ashamed of myself for having so quickly dismissed her work. I still couldn't be sure if it was her own idea to publish Watchman or someone else's, but I decided (personally, within my own conscious) that it would be a greater crime to refuse to read her words than to risk reading them on the off-chance that she'd intended them to remain unpublished.

I came away from Watchman strongly impacted. I felt that the timing was intentional on Lee's part: publication came shortly after Ferguson. I felt (instinctively) that Lee was attempting to defy the "hero" following Atticus had carried for fifty years by publishing Watchman, and that she was challenging people to stop blindly rallying behind him and see him for what he was.

I don't consider Watchman great literature. (I do know enough about literature to say that!) It's a draft, and clumsy in places, but it is the book she initially intended to publish. I don't think it's a good book on its own, but it complicates Mockingbird and certainly validates Dill's claim that Atticus is a racist.

Thomas Jefferson was a racist too. I absolutely loved him once upon a time, as I loved Atticus. A good egg, I thought. I was disturbed, as some are disturbed by the "fall of Atticus," when I realized that this legend of a figure who fought for our freedom during the Revolution, owned slaves. I actually wrestled over it for quite a while a few years ago. Silly perhaps. I take my history seriously, and I began an exploration of the man to try to reconcile my prior idea of him with the knowledge that when he fought for freedom, he really only meant freedom for men, who were white. And had money enough to own property. No one told me that in school.

Is Lee directly tackling this concept in her novels -- the idea that we see what we want to see, when beneath the surface there is racism (in her father) or deep kindness (in Boo), or an enormous story we cannot see (in Mayella)? I don't know? I've said I have no idea if the book is great literature, and I am perhaps too close to it to assess it clinically. But she knew when wrote Atticus in To Kill a Mockingbird that he was a racist. She knew it, though we didn't. And some part of me says she intended that to be implicit -- that it is part of the point. That we are meant to see it. That America has failed to see it.

Perhaps Lee was a raging racist and has pulled the wool over everyone's eyes in America, and the book is acting as propaganda and infecting the children. Or perhaps the book is set in a racist town, and the theme rises above that. Perhaps it is being taught in schools as the legend of Thomas Jefferson was taught. I'll have to reread To Kill a Mockingbird one of these days, to see what I think still further.

But Dill, you raise some piping good questions, and I appreciate the sturdy slap to the face coupled with direct quotations from the novel. Well said, truly.

I'd rather see truth than my hopeful idea of reality. x

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Wow, Dill! I had completely missed that remark by Atticus about women and juries!! Sincerely, you do make me think! Well pointed out! 

... I'm not being sarcastic. I am seeing what you meant above, while I was being rather rude an irreverent which you entirely deserved smile about reading with the heart rather than the brain. I do think reading in school is reading with someone else's brain, but I can see that I did read Mockingbird more with the heart than the brain, or I'd have certainly noticed that line, which has WHAT THE written all over it. I recall just recently romantically philosophizing about the fact that Atticus at least allowed Scout to be a girl. Now I am rethinking! Thanks! Truly!!

“Watch out for intellect,
because it knows so much it knows nothing
and leaves you hanging upside down,
mouthing knowledge as your heart
falls out of your mouth.”

― Anne Sexton

"O deepest wound of all that he should die
On that darkest day."

Beautiful. I've never read this one. x

616

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Hey! No need to mock The Waltons!

The following offered is with respect to your point of view, Dill, and appreciation of your honesty! And also with a nod to your inclination to chuck the book and bow out of this conversation. You've said how you feel, and I understand you prefer not to belabor it. However, since I've just seen this, I'll tuck in a note on my thoughts, with no expectation that you'll continue to discuss it. I'm also quite busy and feel I've been only half-here. Sorry! Good conversation!! smile

I find it strange to be honest because Finch is not from the Southern American Slavery/Plantation linage (where racism would be inherent). Much is made in the outset of the novel of his forebear, the Methodist Simon Finch, from Cornwall England.

I may be misunderstanding something, but are you suggesting racism was only a part of the plantation culture in the American South? The plantation system was the economic center of the South in its day, and cannot be considered some culture removed from the rest of the region. Racism was inherent and inherited all over the South. And the North, actually. I'm talking the blatant kind (which, I'm afraid, was all too common), as well as the implicit kind, such as the racism you sense in Atticus's remarks. Abolitionists were considered radicals in the North. This was not a plantation philosophy.

I love Margaret Mitchell (and like her!), but she says some questionable things in her letters which she'd have had no clue were offensive. Because she was from the 1930s in the Jim Crow South. Like my grandmother (raised in Georgia), who wouldn't have hurt a fly, but said some things upon moving North which made my grandfather roll up the car windows and shout at her to think before speaking. (I prefer not to repeat what she said, but it was intended as an innocent and even fond remark which was quite infantilizing.)

Simon Finch is reputed to be stingy (one can assume, also greedy) and cuts through Jamaica on his way to Alabama. He'd have seen the plantation system in full swing there. He buys three slaves and raises the Finches to follow. That's a racist foundation, and then some.

“Atticus says cheatin‘ a colored man is ten times worse than cheatin’ a white man,” I muttered. “Says it’s the worst thing you can do.”

Atticus isn't intended to be the mouthpiece of the novel, imho. His perspective is a foil to the Jim Crow philosophy which puts Tom Robinson on trial. He's a guy from the 1930s living in rural Alabama. He's not going to sound like someone from the 21st century. (I see you acknowledge that the book is set in the 1930s and you don't care because it's an ugly philosophy. Fair enough!)

Just to say though: To Kill a Mockingbird isn't Atticus's story. It's a coming of age tale about a little girl trying to form her philosophy as she watches the adults around her, as well as the children. Atticus's viewpoint is one within the periphery.

I keep pointing out the story's opening quote by Charles Lamb (epigraph) because I believe it's a signpost: this is a novel about the American children of the 1930s who will become the American adults of the 1960s -- those who were raised in a Jim Crow South who were coming of age just as the Civil Rights movement began and the book was published. The central child in the story is Scout, who is being raised in a world she must rise above. This world contains a great many injustices, beyond the Tom Robinson trial, which is the center injustice within the tale.

I guess I've said that a few times, so maybe my remarks are negligible, or maybe I'm speaking gibberish. smile

This is not great literature, and I avoid teaching it at all costs. It’s not even good. The characters are black and white two-dimensional cardboard cutouts. The rednecks are evil, the blacks are victims, and the self-righteous Atticus is too good to be true. There is nothing here to examine or explore. Critical thinking skills need not be applied for understanding. Moreover, if the lack of complexity and verisimilitude doesn’t stick in your craw, then the insipid narration of the androgynous Scout will. This novel is popular due, in part, to the fact that the reader can feel morally superior to white trailor trash as he identifies with the demigod, Atticus. Shakespeare, the consummate craftsmen of characterization, understood that even the evil (save Iago) have some redeeming qualities, and the good flaws. To Kill a Mockingbird is about as deep as a rain puddle.

I agree with this person's remarks on Shakespeare's villains, but I'm stunned that he overlooks one of the most complicated characters in this tale (Mayella). His reference to the "androgynous" Scout is particularly surprising, not because he points it out, but because he points it out as an apparent slam against her character which can be paired alongside "insipid." This is nothing but a person's knee-jerk inclination to believe that girls should behave like thus and thus, and since Scout doesn't, she's not only insipid but entirely genderless. That's not deep critical thinking?

All of which I point out because I searched him out and found his profile at Amazon (because he claimed in the review to teach English), and he holds a Masters in English, apparently?

Someone trained to study literature would know that the character's perspective is not synonymous with the author's, and would explore what is said beneath the surface. This guy would know that the depiction of "trailer trash" is through a child's viewpoint, and would contemplate the "why" behind this choice in perspective and its impact on the novel's theme. (Or its role as a signpost to the theme.)

Scout is having to pull herself out of a mindset that groups people according to labels like "trash" (I don't recall her ever using that phrase, but it's been a year and several books since I last read Mockingbird). The point is that somehow, against all odds, a little girl in Alabama in the 1930s is watching all of this, hearing perspectives, and speaks the line which makes this novel so famous (near the end of the book.)

Though people fixate on Atticus as the hero of the tale (I did the same on my first two reads), she is the one who reaches for Boo Radley's hand. She is the hero.

Anyway, I've loved / liked this conversation, Dill. smile I really appreciate your honesty and hope I haven't suggested otherwise in anything I've said. I've shared a few of my gut remarks on the novel between homework assignments, but I didn't revisit the book during this conversation, so my thoughts are a bit removed from the text. I really respect that you did revisit it. When I do reread, I'll be taking your point of view with me, because I value it, and because it sharpens my own perspective.

A hardy cheers and a few Waltons jeers! Best wishes for a better next book! x

617

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Mad as a cobbler! cool

618

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Memphis Trace wrote:

It has voice for sure. And I suspect that the reason it immersed me twice is because it doesn't call attention to its grit and soul with soulful prose... I won't demean Lee's hard work at this by saying 'tis a gift to be simple, because I have a vague idea now after 57 years of trying to write soulful prose just how difficult it is to make a hard job look simple to be accessible to interested readers.

Well said.

619

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

I just never thought I'd cause such a stir just by acknowledging the woman's passing.

Are you new here? wink

He'll be rueing the day he told me I couldn't convert our new skyrise apartment into something to match his costume.

621

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Nathan B. Childs wrote:

They grew up in the same Georgia neighborhood...

I often have Georgia on my mind, too. However, Lee grew up in Alabama, I think. Truman Capote was her neighbor. wink

(I've read Capote's Christmas stories about his friendship with Miss Sook while in Alabama. Quite lovely.) x

622

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

Spot and correct the error, or be liable for "fifty lashes with a wet noodle."

Toe the line?

623

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

mad smile

624

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Joking aside, I wish I could join you! I'd love another read of To Kill a Mockingbird. I've never tried reading it with my analysis cap on. I've always read with my brain fully intact, but you are correct that my heart has led the way when reading To Kill a Mockingbird. I think if I were to read it with you, my analysis would center on Scout and Mayella -- the parallel there of the one's ability to speak bluntly, and the other's inability, the one's history with her father, and the other's, the one's sense of self, and the other's, and female the trial happening behind Tom Robinson's.

The idea that the novel is told through the point of view of a white girl and is therefore useless in our own era makes no sense to me. (Referring to the web article, not anything said by you.) I do see (absolutely) the point that such a viewpoint cannot and will not tell the story of racism in America as a whole. I absolutely understand the skepticism on that front: why do we cling to this novel in schools, as if this is the story of American racism? That I get. I actually think we ought to leave this book alone rather than make of it an American Bible and force it on students, butchering its charm with endless questions about theme and such. (I believe I've read that Harper Lee felt the same way.) I don't know what I'd think of the book if someone else had forced me to read it their way. I don't call reading such a book in school "reading with my brain" however; I call that reading with somebody else's.

I agree with Vern's point above that this novel is not about single passage plucked out and declared great writing. You don't sit down at your grandfather's knee and say, "Let's have a story, gramps," and then stop him at the first passage to say, "That's the line! That's the line!" smile You wait out the tale, and the tale as a whole is the story. It's that way with To Kill a Mockingbird, for me.

I think you are correct that if To Kill a Mockingbird wasn't on school lists, it wouldn't be read as frequently. I'm not sure I agree that it wouldn't be a bestseller, because I think it is quite beloved, but I think a lot of the sales begin these days because the book is on a required school list.

I've seen so many people come into the bookstore since the buzz about Watchman last year. They love the book. Not because of enforced instruction. They love it because of the story. Scout! Atticus! If they are cardboard cut-outs, they are no less beloved, perhaps because in such a potentially ugly world, they offer us something to believe in. I think that's true of 1960s America as well as our own era. I'm not saying anyone needs a man like Atticus to "save" them. I'm saying that he could have chosen to be apathetic, and he chose instead to be strong. I think if the novel has a theme, it is this:

"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing." - John Stuart Mill

I think that's a message that continues to be meaningful in our own era, and it is all over the Mayella case, and all over the Boo case. For me this isn't a novel about black and white -- it's a novel about humanity and it's gentle potential, and that gentle potential reaches for Boo Radley's hand. That's it, and that's all. Tom Robinson could be black or white. The point is that he exists in an unjust world, and to make it just someone has to be the one to stand up and speak truth. A person isn't exempt from that because he or she is white. This is a colorless notion that could be applied to all manner of oppressions.

But yes, yes, absolutely, the story of racism goes beyond this novel. I think Harper Lee would be first in line to say this. I think this book was a step in a long, long story which continues to be our legacy in America. I agree that to cling to this book as if it is the full tale is to do a great disservice to the issue. I agree that to mangle this novel up in nostalgic liberalism is to miss the point. But I do not agree that the novel is dated (not your phrase, Dill) or past its prime, or that because it is often filtered through schools, it is a bad novel unworthy of its prestige. I think instead that it continues, remarkably, to be treasured, despite that filter. That is a mark of its strength, not its flaws.

Only my thoughts. x

625

(172 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dill Carver wrote:

I do absolutely know for a fact why the vast majority of copies of ‘To Kill a Mocking Bird’ are sold

That's confidence!! 

You happen to like the book on a personal basis, and that is a wonderful thing, although it doesn’t alter my point.

But don't tell me anyone is loving the prose for its literary value, or the story for its ingenuity.

corra wrote:

I certainly don't love it because it's politically correct to love it. I have a brain, thank you. I love it because it's a good story.

Dill Carver wrote:

To like something and to love something are very different and I'm sorry that you became confused upon the two sentiments.

Ah!

My comments represent a personal opinion upon the book and fact as to why it it such a  big seller.

Your answer is based upon a subjective perspective.

It is an effective blunt tool to show the morally impaired of the unimaginative variety the error of their ways. Tug the simpletons heartstrings, a moral lesson; a sermon.

These are just facts and not to be confused with subjective sentimentality.

It all makes so much more sense when you explain it, Dill. smile

My opinion upon the book was a totally subjective comment.

I put my brain aside...

That seems a waste. I'd recommend multi-tasking.

So, are you suggesting that the book is bought by people who don't want it but must buy it because it's on a school list, or that it's bought by people who don't know what they think of it but must buy it because it's for school, or that it's bought by people who hate it but feel they should read it because it's politically correct, or merely that it's MOST DEFINITELY not bought by people who select it because they like the description on the back of the cover, or by those who've had it recommended to them by friends or loved ones, or by those who want a copy to own because they've read it and love it, or those who merely want to buy it because it's such a well-known classic? And have you actually sat upon the shoulders of all these people and interviewed them one by one, or are you just surmising based upon your own reaction to the story, the poll of your house, and the leap and declare mentality which tends to flavor the remarks of those intelligent souls who lay brain aside to speak subjectively?

I know I appreciate being spoken for, and am deeply impressed by your knowledge of the entire publication history of To Kill a Mockingbird. Thanks!

* tugs at her cap and spits to the right *

wink x