j p lundstrom wrote:

It makes more sense to look to the great storytellers for guidance. Emulate the greats.

Don't you agree?

Yes. It is simple, we should simply run like Bolt, compose like Mozart, paint like Rembrandt, sing like Beyoncé , play chess like Kasparov and write like Brontë.

I think it is recommended that amateur or student writers don't open a novel with a prologue or dream sequence, simply because it seems to be a popular (almost instinctive) compulsion for many, and usually they are are a poorly written or executed indulgence and don't actually do the story any favours. 

The old 'learn and master the basics first' rule of thumb.

Of course when written to a high literary standard, the prologue or dream sequence is a powerful device and they appear in many successful novels, plays and screen plays.

Just as the recommended 'do's and don'ts' impressed upon a learner driver don't apply to the professional race car driver. Sometimes quite the opposite.

'You Only Love Twice'

What a beautiful jacket! I'm often drawn to (or put off) a novel by the cover and this one is very enticing, a work of art in it's own right. Now I have to discover what is inside.

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njc wrote:

... you should review, as much as possible, within the author's style.  But sometimes that style works against the story or the telling, so your best contribution will criticize style.  In which case, you should keep it gentle and constructive, especially when reviewer and author haven't come to understand each other.

Very well put njc, wise words and in essence I agree.

However, the issue is and always will be, whom/how decides to what degree the style works against the story or the telling?

Subjectivity. One person's pleasure is another's poison.

There is no regulating, rationalizing or standardising subjectivity. I think the key is within your closing words; "when reviewer and author haven't come to understand each other."  The author and editor need to be on the same page, and so often they are not.

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vern wrote:

I agree with all that K says with one possible exception in the eye of this totally non-expert...

I'm only venturing a guess too, Vern. Taking a stab at it. Your 'Mom' reasoning is astute and extremely plausible.

Best, Kate

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njc wrote:

There are books written entirely in the historical present.

Yes, and there are books by the likes of James Joyce and Spike Milligan that are written in modernist avant-garde (all over the place in terms of tense and style). There is a book called;  'How to Speak Klingon: Essential Phrases for the Intergalactic Traveler by Ben Grossblatt.'

There are books.

I don't understand your statement?

Essentially, what this thread discusses is a case where reviewers are insisting that an author is employing the wrong style within their manuscript, merely because it is written in a style that they would not personally use.

I review as a reader. If I enjoy the read, I say so. If I don't, then I leave no review (having learned that dislike is not tolerated).

Some members review from the POV of a harsh editor. This is fine if the writer wants that kind of help and if the 'editor' is actually up to the job.

Sometimes a reader can observe review advice that is actually a 'voice changer' or even a voice killer for the author. Although reviewers can sound authoritative, sometimes their advice is not.

Watching the confidence of perfectly sound writers wobble when their style is called into question is distressing.

Lynne Clark wrote:

I was being tongue-in-cheeky, of course.

Of course; and ditto smile

I can relate to your lack of confidence (in that you feel I may not understand your jollity). It is unfortunate that the new iteration of this site can be so stiff and spikey so as that it makes us feel that we need to explain, 'Pun Intended'. You'd assume a free-thinking community of creative writers would get it? Offence is far too easily taken, and I'm on shaky ground being a non-paying (reader, not writer) member. I'm expecting a Premium Member, "insulted" and offended by my very existence to chase me off the site at any moment.

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Norm d'Plume wrote:

I have an elite force of guards in my story called the Elite Guard.

When calling a spade a spade at least there is no confusion as to what they are.  Individual members of 'The Elite Guard' are guards. Just as members of the  'Plumbers Guild' are plumbers. This must be true, else when referring to an individual you'd have to write, 'The Guard's dagger' or 'the Plumber's wrench' which is wrong because it should be,  The guard's dagger' or 'the plumber's wrench.'

This standard issue Guards Dagger, found buried up to the hilt in the prisoners eye socket is that particular guard's dagger i.e. her property.  And this Plumber's Wrench, belongs to that plumber. It is from his toolbox and he asked that a colleague, a fellow plumber, pass him said Plumbers Wrench.   

Forming a group of elite guards into a force called The Elite Guard presents another issue which is rank. Capitalize a military rank when used as a formal title before an individual's name but not in description.  The Commander in Chief is a commander just as Private Benjamin is merely a private.

The British Army has regiments of Guards. (The Scots Guards, the Coldstream Guards etc.) they get around the issue by referring to the guards who serve in The Guards, as guardsmen because their rank is Guardsman.

This confusion was resolved in the year 423 BC when the Romans named their force of elite guards, the Praetorian Guard. The members can then be formally called Praetorians and informally guards.

njc wrote:

Hmm.  In the presence of the offender, I prefer to suppress the eye roll and the gutter vocalization, hanging my head instead.  But (pardon the spelling) chacon a son gout!

I usually wince over my VISA bill.

The old hung head. True, hanging one's head in shame can be exasperating. If you are going to roll your eyes at an offender, you'd best hope their offence is not thievery, lest they decline to roll them back, which may induce a jaw drop.

njc wrote:

Hmm.  Isn't long, loud, drawn-out sigh usually the first expression of exasperation?

or orgasm, or admiration/approbation, or disappointment/displeasure or disenchantment/disillusionment or envy/desire...  in my case the long, loud, drawn-out sigh usually means I've opened and read my Mastercard bill. Buyer's remorse.

The first expression of exasperation is when you hold your hands out palms up, roll your eyes upwards towards an imaginary heaven and mutter, "For fucks sake!' quietly to yourself whilst slowly shaking your head. Then comes the sigh. After the gurning and cussing.

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TirzahLaughs wrote:

Hi,

Example:

I flipped Binny the bird.   

Some readers tell me to make it 'I flip Binny the bird' because it is the first person.  I argue that she's telling the reader (she chats constantly) so it should be 'flipped'.      She'd 'telling' the story in the first person but she is TELLING a story.   

This makes me crazy when I'm writing and frustrates me because 'flip' just sounds wrong.  Now imagine having this debate for 50,000 words.

You are quite right IMO. Your narrator's voice is telling me a story. It's like we are sitting around the fire with our ears on and the storyteller, she's spinning us a yarn. First person or third... no difference.

'I flip Binny the bird' is more like a script. Stage direction. Commentary.

There is skill in writing; grammar, diction, vocabulary etc. But the greater skill is that of a storyteller. The story delivered from the language of the narrator to the minds-eye of the listener.

Go with you gut feel on this. Many reviewers on this site think everybody should write the way they do. It is well intentioned advice but an opinion, not authoritative and to follow it it could strangle your voice. If you lose confidence in your writing, it will suffer.

Sorry, my mistake.

Surely they is a sentence?

Lynne Clark wrote:

kraptonite, I don't think you should use such short sentences...

Surely they are a sentence, not sentences? Given a sentence is singular container for words, the plural instance does not apply?

Bevin Wallace wrote:
j p lundstrom wrote:
Norm d'Plume wrote:

Can you tell from just a sigh that someone is exasperated?

Can't be done.

Come on...  Sure it can.

I think that you need the sigh to accompany the moustache losing its lustre and drooping whilst the last vestige of the glimmer of hope dies in his eyes and he bursts the treasured balloon he is holding by inadvertently over-squeezing it and have him sob through quivering lips as he stares through his tears at the bits of broken balloon in his trembling hands whilst the stem of the tall daisy-like flower that protrudes from the top of his bowler hat simultaneously wilts and then sheds its petals. One by one. 

Then... and only then, will the reader understand the degree of exasperation the Benji is suffering.

You could reinforce this with having all four wheels on his car collapse and his doors fall off in time with a loud backfire and loads of smoke. Just to be safe.

Bevin Wallace wrote:

Not sure where the “burning eyes” bit comes from.  Sounds painful....

Hench my josh, earlier up the thread.

An opinion garnered from reading huge amounts of amateur writing leaves me with the view that graphically informing the reader of a character’s inner thoughts, feelings or intentions via the eyes (or other facial parts), often comes across as cheesy and cliché.

Within a well written passage it can work as a device, but only once or twice within a novel because it quickly becomes tedious.
I feel it is also a case of ‘telling’ where the author might actually think they are ‘showing’.

Describing the facial features is not the issue. When an author writes something like;

‘Jed rocked from the blow, narrowed his eyes and spat.’

I get it. I totally get that Jed is riled up and ready to fight back.

When an author writes;

‘Jed rocked from the blow and the pain that burned within his eyes turned quickly into a look of smouldering vengeful hatred.’

I think jeeeze!  You don’t need the writer to take me for a walk around the garden in order to graphically explain that the blow hurt Jed and that he is going to fight back.

...and there’s the author thinking how gifted and gilded their prose is, and the reader thinking ‘jeeeze!’

Lynne Clark wrote:

there you go then, it's all in the context smile

If the burn in his eyes was inflicted by stubbing the red end of a cigarette, then you'd really see the hurt in them.

Worth reflecting upon, I'd say. For at least a couple of moment.

Although, I feel that you might be confusing a telescope with a kaleidoscopes.

njc wrote:

Doesn't sound wierd to me.

So... what if the 'couple' in question are a couple of sheeps? wink

There is the infamous case of writers starting a sentence with 'However,' instead of 'But' which is very common, where vocabulary rules dictate that the word 'Nevertheless' should actually be used.

Quotes:

Somebody here once said (and I think it was Brosna/Nadine' of the old site), that 'very few Grammar Professors are ever published.'

I assume that to be true because her husband is a highly esteemed Grammar Professor and would know.

It's true that many of the most successful (monetarily) creative writers of this era (J.K Rowling, E.L James, Stephenie Meyer...) were not strict grammar correctness advocates within their bestselling products . Old school classics? The attributed quote of Mark Twain,  “I know grammar by ear only, not by note, not by the rules.”

Bevin Wallace wrote:

I think Pablo Picasso said it best:
“Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.”

Welcome to prove the razor...  :-)


I'm with this guy BTW  wink

http://www.levraphael.com/blog/?tag=snopes

Welcome to prove the quotation...  :-)

Yes.

It is only right and proper that the, 'you need to learn the rules, before you can break the rules' axiom is trooped out to sit upon the fence at any discussion upon grammar variations or deviations within creative writing. No conversation upon the subject would be complete without it and we are well to be reminded.

However, the discussion here is more to do with the fact that correct grammar can often make prose within creative writing stiff and less eloquent.
I mean, in order to make creative writing a better reading experience the ‘advised best practice’ is against grammar in several respects. For example, ending sentences with prepositions isn't actually incorrect in grammar but it makes for inelegant writing. Similarly, Split Infinitives, Passive Voice, starting sentences with ‘And, or ‘But’ are actually perfectly acceptable within grammar. No law against them, but you wouldn’t want to write like that because it makes the writing appear unstylish and unprofessional.

What we are talking about here is why do we (or the majority of us) write ‘Who’ when the ‘who’ object is a preposition or an objective case and grammar law dictates we should actually be writing ‘Whom’

As with the eternal, ‘hanged’ VS ‘hung’ debate, so ‘the couple are sat upon the sofa’ VS ‘the couple is sat upon the sofa’.

Should we write the way we actually speak, or must we write the way we don’t speak?

Does grammar define the language or does language (eventually) define grammar (proven by international differences within 'English'  Grammar definitions) ?

Writing dialog is simple. Niles Crane speaks the same language very differently than Rocky Balboa. We can depict this. Narration is dialog too; the writers voice. Would I write (and expect to read) a different writing style within a romance novella than within an essay, an inventory or an affidavit?

A long time (nine or so years) ago on the previous version of this site, when I first joined, some here may recall there was a discussion/debate upon the merits of clinically perfect grammar. I remember at that time some member put up an example passage from a classic novel (I think it was 'Gone with the Wind') and then ran it through the AutoCrit filter.  It was very revealing exercise.  The original prose had a rich and characteristic voice, an engaging and evocative read. The AutoCrit applied edit was sterile and dull.  A lot of 'was' and 'were' was edited out, sentences shortened, words/phrases accused of being cliché removed, grammar corrected, punctuation moved, removed or inserted etc.

The corrected passages conveyed the same story but it definitely lost the sparkle and there was no longer anything special about it.  The subtle 'X-factor' within the narrative voice had been 'normalized.'

Correcting prose to conform to grammar rules the writer had not previously considered or adhered to at the time of creation can remove something valuable. Sure something like AutoCrit can improve poorly written writing, but it can also remove character from the author's voice, and it is the author's voice we readers fall for... or not. 

I've never fallen in love with the narrative voice within a legal document.

vern wrote:

There is no debate about the word "boats"; it is plural period.
There is no debate about the word "testicles"; it is plural period though if referred to as a pair (which they generally are) then that would be a single pair.
There is no debate about combined words "summer and winter"'; they are two different seasons and together are plural period.

Indeed. And that was the first part of my point.

In the course of everyday language (the way generally people speak) the word 'couple' whether plural or not, inherits the same turn of phrase. In my world I feel that more people would say,  'the couple are sitting by the fire' than would say 'the couple is sitting by the fire.'  whichever form is politically correct.

I prefer to read writing that sounds natural or enticing to my ear, even if it is not strictly grammatically correct. This is creative writing after all; not a legal document. If correct grammar is to be enforced, it would outlaw poetry and undermine many bestseller novels.

JeffM wrote:

->The couple 'are' in their sixties doesn't have a good ring to it either. The couple is ONE unit of two people and since they share age, the singular would apply, sorry.

Don't be sorry. Your points are ONE unit of opinion since it share the same subjects.