Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Love debates on religion. My book is about the End Times in Revelation, so it has a mostly Catholic bent, but I may want to expand into Judaism and Islam in the next book. It would be an enormous undertaking to learn about those religions, so I haven't decided yet. That would be for books two and three. Book one is largely focused on Catholicism, although Connor visits Israel for a pilgrimage to follow in Jesus's footsteps.

677 (edited by Dirk B. 2020-01-17 23:41:13)

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

I was wondering if I can get a few opinions on how to handle repetitive story elements such as bowing one's head to a cardinal or speaking the Trinitarian fornula (In nominee patris, et filii, et spiritus sancti. Amen.) every time one crosses oneself.

One example is my exorcism chapter. As written, Father Romano, Connor, and Father Luca don't explicitly bow their heads to Cardinal Nnamani when they approach him at the hospital. I left it as implied since both Romano and Connor have previously bowed their heads in his presence back at the orphanage and would do so again. However, as they enter the hospital room together, everyone inside (all new characters) rises and bows their heads. Since it's all one scene, it should probably be consistent for everyone, and I'm inclined to do it throughout the book (there aren't that many occurrences).

The other one is more tricky. It would grow very tiresome if I had someone explicitly verbalize the Trinitarian formula every time they cross themselves. It would be equally repetitive if I explicitly noted every time someone crosses themselves, including at the beginning and end of every prayer. I have yet to find a good way to communicate to the reader that when someone prays, many (not all) cross themselves before and after the prayer, and when they cross themselves, they often (not always) speak the formula, and some, like Connor, speak the formula in Latin.

In one of Seabrass's stories, he frequently notes the bells of the clock tower, even down to a quarter hour. I thought it was a little overdone (sorry, Charles), but I'm sure he had his reasons for his POV character noting the time. Also, his main character, Lake-Ellen, carries a wooden staff for defense, and he was pretty consistent in noting when she put it down or picked it up.

Thoughts?

Thanks
Dirk

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Well... I'd say if you're repeating an element, you're trying to draw the reader's attention. These repetitive elements you speak of... are they intended to achieve verisimilitude?

679 (edited by Dirk B. 2020-01-18 03:22:06)

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Yes, that's the intent, but without hitting the reader over the head with it. I think even Catholic readers would get bored if I stop to show it every time it happens.

For the crossing/formula, my preference would be to show it a few times up front, then phase it out, then bring it back from time to time when I want to emphasize it. The feedback I got in chapter one when I tried to have Connor do it exactly as he should was to show it once (i.e., before the first prayer), then make it go away as fast as possible (that readers would just get it). The feedback I got when I tried to have Romano note to himself that that's how Connor always does it was even more negative, although that's probably ideal, but I have yet to come up with acceptable wording. I'll throw up an example tomorrow.

A more generic example would be saluting in a military story. If someone salutes their commander two or three times, would you assume they always do so even when not explicitly noted, or would you conclude the subordinate (or the author) forgot to do it. That's even more problematic if the person later salutes after getting chewed out for something unrelated.

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Hello, Dirk.

When the characters are doing an activity that involves those repeated actions, you might mention it once at first, up front. Then say something like 'They followed protocol for the rest of the activity, bowing, praying, sitting, kneeling. Whatever is involved. That way you do mention it explicitly once, then drop it in that the characters are indeed going through the motions without having to explicitly say so.

Also, if one character has a sore shoulder or bad knees, whenever they cross themselves or kneel and stand, they might grunt or give a sign of pain. You can sprinkle one or two of these throughout. Having tied the sound to the action, the reader should understand what's happening. OR if a character has a bad heart you could say he sat while everyone else stood and knelt. Mention the activity through oblique references to other actions.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

And just for reference, the staff's name was Dandelion. I kept it at her side throughout the novel so when she lost it at the end (in addition to everything else in her life) the impact of that was much keener. It was probably the largest sign of her losing everything (except her money and her seedbook), not having Dandelion. I plan to open the next story with her finding a new staff.

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Lake-Ellen returns? Cool. I better pick up my pace in Terrorcruise so I'm ready for her next sojourn. Thank you for your feedback.

682 (edited by Dirk B. 2020-01-18 13:11:53)

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Following is the 'before' version of where I would like to note for the reader that Connor and many (most?) Catholics always cross themselves and recite the Trinitarian formula at the beginning and end of every prayer.

Romano put the mask on Alessandro and compressed the attached bag every few seconds until the boy’s chest rose and fell normally. Romano sighed.
Connor crossed himself. “In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.” He closed his eyes. “Father, just as you lifted your perfect Son ... not my will but yours be done.” Connor crossed himself again and everyone echoed his final “Amen.”
Alessandro’s seizure ended. Romano removed the resuscitator, and Connor rose.

And here's my revision. I moved Romano's observation of Connor's way of praying until after the prayer is complete. That seems like the best place to put it since they're waiting for Alessandro's seizure to end.

Romano put the mask on Alessandro and compressed the attached bag every few seconds until the boy’s chest rose and fell normally. Romano sighed.
Connor crossed himself. “In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.” He closed his eyes. “Father, just as you lifted your perfect Son ... not my will but yours be done.” Connor crossed himself again. “In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.”
Everyone echoed his final “Amen.”
Romano always admired Connor's devout way of praying. As good as any Catholic. After all, if you're going to call on the Almighty, you might as well do it right.
Alessandro’s seizure ended. Romano removed the resuscitator, and Connor rose.

Romano's observation sets up all other prayers in the book, which gives me the freedom to write prayers without always explicitly crossing oneself and reciting the Trinitarian formula.

Dirk

EDIT: It took me a few false starts, but I'm finally happy with the way things are worded above. My thanks to those who commented.

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Nuts. My scene about the orphans visiting St. Peter's Basilica is falling apart. The basilica and a Papal Mass are much more complicated than I had expected. Also, the city of Rome surrounding the basilica doesn't have the features I was hoping for. I was hoping to find an overpass nearby for Connor's next miracle. Failing that, a bridge over the Tiber River. They have the latter, but it's a hike to get there. A bit much for the younger orphans who are supposed to be in this scene. Also, there's no good excuse for going there. There's a castle there, but I don't want to dedicate page space for the boys to tour it.

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

This thread reads like your personal journal where you’re talking with yourself mostly.  That’s both weird and oddly pathetic.  Peace, man.  There’s an app for that —— https://www.betterhelp.com/helpme/

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Can someone please tell me which of the following is correct/preferable?

It slips under doors rather than tear them off their hinges.
It slips under doors rather than tearing them off their hinges.

Thanks.
Dirk

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Both are fine, Dirk. You get the point across either way, although one could argue that 'it slips under doors' makes 'rather than tear[ing] them off their hinges' obsolete, if you know what I mean.

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Just trying to add a little description. tongue

Thanks
Dirk

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Well, the Papal Mass is out. Not enough material online to do it justice. However, I did stumble on what I hope is a really good tourist guide for the Vatican, including St. Peter's Basilica, the Sistine Chapel, and the Vatican Museum. Throw in another miracle by Connor, and I should be good to go.

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Go, go, go, Dirk! Let's see it.    :o)

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Well, the tourist guide is decent enough, albeit with almost no pictures of what the author is describing. Apparently it never occurred to him (a tour guide) to snap a few pictures. Duh. It contains maps of layouts, though, which is good for orienting. I can probably get the pictures I want online so I can describe what I need. Found a good video tour (alas, soundless) of St. Peter's, too.

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

You should go there

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

I would if my health allowed (the Holy Land even more so). I just (re)discovered I own a large encyclopedia-style book of the Vatican, with tons of color photographs. Now I just have to whittle everything down to a few key elements and hope I can make them sound interesting. Fortunately, Connor's little buddy, Damiano, doesn't know much about Catholicism (I know the feeling), so he gets to ask all the newbie questions. I'm still trying to squeeze in an appearance by the Pope (he was supposed to lead the Papal Mass). I may have him appear at the window of the Apostolic Palace above St. Peter's Square, before the group goes inside the basilica.

693 (edited by Dirk B. 2020-02-10 04:30:49)

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Question: should Connor show fear? It's come up a few times already, when he's faced with danger, and his reaction to date has been to pray without so much as a tremor in his voice. His faith keeps him calm when others panic, but he's less human as a result. A prime example is the prologue, where he's trying to keep demonic locusts with scorpion-like stingers at bay. The group is terrified, but he prays fearlessly. Even when his voice grows hoarse and he can't maintain the shield any longer, he simply says it's in God's hands now. Kind of makes him seem invincible, which is not necessarily the best trait for someone under constant attack.

Thoughts?
Dirk

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Complicated. JC showed fear of death if it helps

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

It wasn't so much fear of death, but fear of suffering. He knew he would rise in three days. Scourging was so vicious, it could be fatal, even before they got you up on the cross.

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Still fear tho

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

I found the ultimate resource for St. Peter's Basilica: http://stpetersbasilica.info. Full of pictures and endless info, and everything is hyperlinked. Could have saved myself over a week of research if I'd found it first. Unfortunately, it's taken two pages just to get inside Vatican City and describe the square. I'll probably have to trim the history behind the obelisk. The opening does include a brief glimpse of the Pope, though. Tentatively, I have eight stops inside the church, including Michaelangelo's Pieta and Pope John Paul II's tomb. The Sistine Chapel needs two pages. And Connor's next miracle also needs two. I want to keep the whole thing at eight pages or less. There definitely won't be room for the Vatican Museums.

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

The chapter from hell is up. The orphans tour the Vatican. Only the tour of St. Peter's Square and St. Peter's Basilica are shown since Romano and Connor leave the tour before it's over. Technically, Connor's already seen the Sistine Chapel, but I'll probably have him revisit it in the future as a place he goes to think.

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Dirk B. wrote:

The chapter from hell is up. The orphans tour the Vatican. Only the tour of St. Peter's Square and St. Peter's Basilica are shown since Romano and Connor leave the tour before it's over. Technically, Connor's already seen the Sistine Chapel, but I'll probably have him revisit it in the future as a place he goes to think.

Dirk, I don't mean to be a dick about it, but how 'bout some reciprocatin' (and I don't mean as a part of a saw)? We're all here to produce the best possible, and we can all use a little help.

By the way, I sneaked a quick peek, and I have to say I disagree with you on the subject of Jesus' founding of the Christian church. Instead, I'd say it was based *upon* his teachings, and the leadership began with the apostles.

Ray

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

You're not being a dick. After I post a chapter, I then spend a couple of weeks reciprocating and tweaking what I have up. As for who founded the Church, it was definitely Jesus. In the Gospels, he addresses Peter (a name that also means rock), and tells him that "You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." (Matt 16:18)