TheNextBigWriter Premium → POV changes in a short stories
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This might be a dumb question, but I'll ask it. Is it possible to change POV in a short story. I don't think I have read short stories with POV changes from one character to another. I see that style in novels, but is it ever done in short stories? Is it even feasible in a short story ?
Mary
I haven't tried it, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. You're the author--you have the godlike power to create the story you want. Enjoy.
It kind of depends (as does everything.) Nora Roberts changed POV in the middle of a paragraph. Head hopping has gotten a bad rap because it jolts the reader, but if you do it with enough flow, it's fine. A crowd scene, for example. It would be perfectly fine to switch from a United the Righter to an Antifa, to the cop trying to prevent each of them from killing each other in the space of a page--if that's all part of the action.
I'm not sure why the omniscient narrator (POV) seems to be taboo among many reviewers. Many best selling and well received works were/are written in omniscient POV. It is a time tested method of narrating a story. I like that freedom to show things from all sides without being told "you can't do that, it makes my head hurt" or such. Everyone has preferences and what works for the author is really the deciding factor although if said author finds overwhelming opposition to the way it is presented, then they might wish to rethink their decision. You will never know unless you go down that road. Good luck. Take care. Vern
I'm not sure why the omniscient narrator (POV) seems to be taboo among many reviewers. Many best selling and well received works were/are written in omniscient POV. It is a time tested method of narrating a story. I like that freedom to show things from all sides without being told "you can't do that, it makes my head hurt" or such. Everyone has preferences and what works for the author is really the deciding factor although if said author finds overwhelming opposition to the way it is presented, then they might wish to rethink their decision. You will never know unless you go down that road. Good luck. Take care. Vern
I so agree with you, I'm getting tired of trying to defend it in my own story.
The omniscient POV is tabu because of editors who could block your access to your potential audience. And in "How to Write Good" manuals, they stress not using it. But with this era of everyone having his/her own printing press, we should simply do what makes the story work. Our only concerns should be consistency, flow, and clarity. There, I said it.
The omniscient POV is tabu because of editors who could block your access to your potential audience. And in "How to Write Good" manuals, they stress not using it.
LOL
Dune, the best-selling sci-fi novel of all time used omniscient/headhopping. The author and his son have written well over a dozen books in the Dune universe. Movie, two miniseries, another planned movie, etc.
Just saying...
Rachel (Rhiannon) Parsons wrote:The omniscient POV is tabu because of editors who could block your access to your potential audience. And in "How to Write Good" manuals, they stress not using it. But with this era of everyone having his/her own printing press, we should simply do what makes the story work. Our only concerns should be consistency, flow, and clarity. There, I said it.
That omniscient narration is not favored by editors isn't some arbitrary thing. As originally employed, omniscient narration used a distinctive narrative voice, a la Charles Dickens. Using such a voice in contemporary fiction is anachronistic; a bit like driving to work in a Model T. But without that distinctive narrative voice, omniscient narration falls flat, and you end up with a lot of bland narrative summary, which is not good. This fact, plus the technical difficulty of maintaining a consistent POV, may be why most editors avoid omniscient narration.
If you don't have a working voice for the narrative, I doubt it makes any difference which POV you choose, so you might as well choose the one you wish to tell the story. If the voice is the problem why don't they just say so and stop all the pretense of the curse of the omniscient POV. And if all those editors were so perfect in their decisions we would never have all the rejections of what eventually becomes a best seller. No one way of writing is the Holy Grail no matter how many times it is repeated by editors or strict followers of the imperial decree. Some times the king loses his head. Just saying. Take care. Vern
Most of these responses dismissed a (the, I’d argue) key element of the question, which is its context: the “short story” format. In addition to its limiting form, the short story likely only has a handful of characters, and often just one or two. The decision to use an omniscient POV in a 2,500-word short story with one or a handful of characters is different than the decision to use it in a +/-100,000-word novel that might have a dozen main/secondary characters and a host of incidental characters.
Dallas Wright wrote:Most of these responses dismissed a (the, I’d argue) key element of the question, which is its context: the “short story” format. In addition to its limiting form, the short story likely only has a handful of characters, and often just one or two. The decision to use an omniscient POV in a 2,500-word short story with one or a handful of characters is different than the decision to use it in a +/-100,000-word novel that might have a dozen main/secondary characters and a host of incidental characters.
Not sure we're reading the same thread.
Apparently. And some of us didn’t even bother to read the original post [because we are wont to see how clever and verbose we can be and, if we just deal with the (usually simple) topic at hand, that stymies our creativity and penchant for pontificating)], which really only asked two questions:
1) Is (multiple POV) ever used in short stories?
2) Is it even feasible in short stories?
The answer to 1 is obviously “yes” and, given that, the second question is irrelevant. But from that modest start, we managed within a dozen posts to get all the way to invoking Dune. . . .go figure.
Dallas Wright wrote:Deckland Oz wrote:Not sure we're reading the same thread.
Apparently. And some of us didn’t even bother to read the original post [because we are wont to see how clever and verbose we can be and, if we just deal with the (usually simple) topic at hand, that stymies our creativity and penchant for pontificating)], which really only asked two questions:
1) Is (multiple POV) ever used in short stories?
2) Is it even feasible in short stories?The answer to 1 is obviously “yes” and, given that, the second question is irrelevant. But from that modest start, we managed within a dozen posts to get all the way to invoking Dune. . . .go figure.
The OP didn't ask about the use of omniscient narration in a short story but merely changing POV in a short story. Hence your post regarding the use of omniscient narration in a short story seemed off point. Perhaps lighten up a bit. No need to go into attack mode.
Correct. The “omniscient POV” and “omniscient narration” references were addressing the OT posters (like yourself) who had gone off the rails . Playing dumb doesn’t suit you, Mr. Giuliani. Obfuscation, however, fits you to a T. And I believe you grabbed your crotch first.
Sometimes people answer the most recent question, issue, or argument instead of the original ... like I'm doing now.
I wouldn't bother with trolls infesting our forums. It's happens everywhere and, for some obscure reason, there's people who enjoy trolling forums (or, should I say fora?).
My suggestion is that we simply ignore them and their account is closed, as it has already been case this this Dallas Wright, whomever he'd been. On the other hand, good discussions sometimes move away from the original topic and it doesn't mean they're bad discussions.
If you people don't mind, I'd like to go back to the place where the discussion was diverted by a troll and keep on with it on friendly terms.
Dune, the best-selling sci-fi novel of all time used omniscient/headhopping. The author and his son have written well over a dozen books in the Dune universe. Movie, two miniseries, another planned movie, etc.
Just saying...
Sadly, Herbert's son prose, and even plots, is/are quite inferior to Herbert's own, meaning his sequels and prequels pay poor homage to Herbert's work. Even the way he explains the events around the Butlerian Jihad is kinda poor, if you ask me.
On the POV subject, I'm a fan of head-hopping, even though I don't use it myself because, currently, YA readers don't expect it and don't like it (the current fashion, in 20 years it might be otherwise). One of my favourite authors, Alexandre Dumas, used to head-hop a lot and his stories wouldn't have worked had he done otherwise. Head-hopping in a short story, within 2500 words, it's not impossible but requires a great amount of dexterity, which I think anybody around here may achieve. It's just matter of trial and error.
Kiss,
Gacela
PS. Sol, would it be possible for you to remove Dallas Wright's posts from this thread so people may continue the discussion without them annoying us?
Kiss again,
Gacela
Sol, would it be possible for you to remove Dallas Wright's posts from this thread so people may continue the discussion without them annoying us?
Well, somebody removed something. These recent posts wouldn't appear to be related in any way, except for Dallas's quotes. Thank God for the the right of free speech.
Sorry to edit your post, Mariana.
The VAST MAJORITY of threads veer off the strict topic of the original post at some point. Thank God for that. Think about it. If you can't get a group of people who witness an accident or anything else to agree on the details, then why would you expect everyone to see any subject in the forums in the same way and respond in a uniform way? It is not going to happen.
If we can't accept threads straying from the original subject, then we are going to be limited to very short threads which add virtually nothing to the pool of knowledge and die a quick death due to lack of participation. Variety is the spice of life for good reason -- boredom sucks and rarely teaches anything other than trying to avoid it. We keep trying to fix things that ain't broke until it is. Just my off topic opinion. Take care. Vern
I don't mind when our threads stray a little, but I do detest ultracrepidarians. Some closed accounts are a reason for celebration. With that said, I personally have changed POVs in short stories, but I separate them with ***. More a matter of preference for me.
I don't mind when our threads stray a little, but I do detest ultracrepidarians.
Learn something new every day. Thanks, MJ, for increasing my vocabulary. Must admit I'd never heard "ultracrepidarians" before so had to look it up. Learning new stuff is the best part of threads going off target at times. Take care. Vern
So, the site was hacked and evidently some posts were deleted (among other actions) to counter that activity; I suppose that is why a post that used to be in this space is no longer here. Perhaps Putin needs some good stories to tell The Donald the next time they get together. Think he might pay royalties? Okay, this ain't a political post; it's the beginning of a mystery thriller. Stay tuned. Take care. Vern
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