1 (edited by Dirk B. 2018-05-31 13:04:34)

Topic: Comma before "as if"?

I've been kicking the tires on Grammarly, and it doesn't like my use of a comma before "as if". Following is the main example I disagree with:

“Did you hear that?” he asked with apprehension, as if he were now the hunted.

Are there cases where a comma before "as if" is appropriate? I find a natural pause in the above example.

Thanks
Dirk

2 (edited by Dallas Wright 2018-05-31 14:14:57)

Re: Comma before "as if"?

The comma is fine, but that’s not your problem.  “he asked with apprehension” is not necessary. (Nor is the rest of it)   I don’t even have the context of what comes before it, and I can already tell that question is being asked with apprehension, so why waste words?
I suggest you leave off everything after the question mark.  The context handles the rest.  Readers like to think.  When you hold their hands by giving them obvious information, you insult their intelligence.

Re: Comma before "as if"?

I reread it in context. You're absolutely right.

Thanks
Dirk

Re: Comma before "as if"?

Grammarly often dislikes punctuation where punctuation is needed.  In this case, the comma is irrelevant as it is a prepositional adjectival phrase that modifies the noun, 'apprehension,' given you more properties of the state of mind.  It can go either way, then.

Re: Comma before "as if"?

Rachel (Rhiannon) Parsons wrote:

In this case, the comma is irrelevant as it is a prepositional adjectival phrase that modifies the noun, 'apprehension'

I'm so old, I don't think they had those when I was in school. :-)

Thanks for the info.
Dirk

6 (edited by njc 2018-06-01 15:00:56)

Re: Comma before "as if"?

The problem with stylebook comma rules is that they look at the type of node rather than the tree structure.

What in the thundering infernal blazes do I mean by that?

Well, bear with me.  It will take a bunch of words to explain, but it's really very simple.  It's also easier to explain with drawings than in words alone, and I might put some up later.

Some among us may remember 'diagramming' sentences as a way to show the grammatical structure graphically.  The point of diagramming is that our grammar is (a) hierarchical (tree-structured) and (b) recursive--you can turn entire clauses into modifiers (using relative pronouns and subordinating conjunctions) or nouns (using relative pronouns), bury nouns in modifiers (prepositional phrases) and turn predicates into nouns and adjectives (gerunds and participles).  This means that structure repeats within structure.  Mathematics has a tool to describe this: the tree.  This tree, and the theory around it, is a limited kind of  'graph'.  It has another tool: Formal Language Theory, which makes heavy use of graphs.

There's all sorts of neat theory here, and especially a lot of neat algorithms, but we won't need to wrangle any of that.  We just need the tree as a picture.

A graph, in graph theory, is a set of points (called nodes) connected by lines (or curves) called arcs.  A tree is a graph with a single 'top' node called the root (for us, the whole sentence) and without cycles.  No cycles means that from one node to another there's only one path, and a node has at most one 'ancestor' leading toward the root.  Nodes may have descendents; these are called 'inner' (or 'non-terminal') nodes.  Nodes at the bottom of the tree, called 'leaf' or 'terminal' nodes have no descendents.  Leaf nodes represent unmodified individual words.  The inner nodes represent constructions (words with modifiers, phrases, clauses, conjuntion-joinings, appositives and parentheticals, &c &c &c & &c).

Why is this more important than the cost of a good cup of coffee?

We speak, write, hear, and read linear strings of words.  When we speak or write, we need to turn the tree of meaning (in our minds) into that string of words.  When we hear or read, we need to turn the linear string of words back into that tree of meaning.

'Grammar' describes the allowable structure of the tree, and how it is converted to and from the linear sequence of words.  Converting the string into the tree is called 'parsing' and it is a harder problem than generating the string.  Strunk and White present the example of an eliided 'that'.  I'll modify the example:

'He felt * his nose, which was over an inch long, made him look ridiculous.'

There's an implied 'that' at the asterisk, but the reader can't realize it until somewhere after the word 'made'.  This case, the elided 'that', is peculiar to English, but the general parsing problem is inherently more difficult than generating the string.  You can explore the drowning depths of the question in the WikiP articles on Backus-Naur Form and Formal Language Theory.  But the essence is fairly simple.

When you are constructing the hierarchical sentence in your mind, you are attaching the words, one by one, to that notional parse tree.  You need to know where to attach each word.  Does it go on the previous word or construct, or does it go on a more remote node?

'red train' => 'train' inserted above 'red'
'Jesus wept' => 'Jesus' the subject below 'wept, 'wept' the verb below predicate, predicate below clause. below sentence.

Now consider "He felt that his big nose, which was over an inch long, made him look ridiculous."  This is an easy sentence for an adult reader of English to understand, but it is frightfully complex viewed as grammar.  "that his big nose ...." is a free relative clause serving as the direct object of 'felt'.  (Yes, there are other ways to describe it, but they won't change my basic point.)  Let's look at that clause.

His big nose which was over an inch long made him look ridiculous.

I've omitted all commas so we can ask "Why and where do we put commas?"  (Have patience.  We're getting close to my point.)

Read this sentence aloud (if you can, otherwise aloud in your mind).  Where do you pause slightly?  I think you'll find it's before 'which' and after 'long'.  Why do you delay there?  Is it because you've been taught where to put commas?  Or is it because the pauses are natural in the sentence structure?

Whether you pause because of the mental processes involved in constructing the sentence, or because you want to communicate that structure, the listener will discern the pauses and infer from them the structure they indicate.

I want to focus now on that second pause: "... over an inch long, made him look ridiculous."  What does this indicate in the tree-structured grammar hierarchy?  It indicates that the word 'ridiculous' ends a branch of the tree, and the next word attaches somewhere above that branch.  The next word, 'made', ties back to 'nose'.  'made' is the verb (of the predicate) of which 'nose' is the subject.  Everything between was a modifier on 'nose', a node below 'nose' in the grammar tree.  But 'made' belongs to the predicate, which is actually above nose in the grammar tree.

This break upward in the parse is what the natural pause indicates.  This is what I hold the comma ought to indicate.

Now we can examine why the stylebook rules cannot, in general, be right.

They call for commas to be placed before or after certain types of clauses, phrases, or other constructions.  For appositives and parenthetical phrases, the comma use is part of basic English punctuation, universal and not limited to a stylebook.  Likewise, commas used for series are pretty much univeral (excluding the Oxford comma).  I don't think any stylebook will say not to use them.

But the prescription to place commas before or after certain clauses and phrases, or between this and that, are based on the types of the nodes in the tree, not on the need to indicate a change, from adding to the current place in the tree, to a much higher place in the tree.  What the reader needs to know is where the parse breaks from a lower-level structure and moves back up the tree.  If the comma is to help the reader, it must tell the reader what the reader needs to know.  It must tell the reader when the parse breaks back up the parse tree.

Rules based on the type of the grammar nodes can only be right in some cases, not all.  Nor can they deal with sentences that might require, according to their rules, many commas at many levels of the grammar tree.  A sentence festooned with one comma for every five or six words will most often be hard to read.  The greater the break in levels, the greater the need for the comma.  The mind can easily connect a break of a level or two, but when the break is the end of a clause nested in a clause or phrase, or a combination of clause and conjunction, the comma is a great help to the reader.  Thus, where there is a question of where to put the comma(s), the comma(s) should be placed at the largest breaks, that is, the breaks across the greatest number of levels of the parse.

The stylebooks' use of the grammar node type is an attempt to spare their users the need to fully understand their sentences' structures.  The consequences are not good.

So I hold.
So I declare.
So I proclaim.

Re: Comma before "as if"?

njc wrote:

The problem with stylebook comma rules is that they look at the type of node rather than the tree structure.

What in the thundering infernal blazes do I mean by that?

Well, bear with me.  It will take a bunch of words to explain, but it's really very simple.  It's also easier to explain with drawings than in words alone, and I might put some up later.

Some among us may remember 'diagramming' sentences as a way to show the grammatical structure graphically.  The point of diagramming is that our grammar is (a) hierarchical (tree-structured) and (b) recursive--you can turn entire clauses into modifiers (using relative pronouns and subordinating conjunctions) or nouns (using relative pronouns), bury nouns in modifiers (prepositional phrases) and turn predicates into nouns and adjectives (gerunds and participles).  This means that structure repeats within structure.  Mathematics has a tool to describe this: the tree.  This tree, and the theory around it, is a limited kind of  'graph'.  It has another tool: Formal Language Theory, which makes heavy use of graphs.

There's all sorts of neat theory here, and especially a lot of neat algorithms, but we won't need to wrangle any of that.  We just need the tree as a picture.

A graph, in graph theory, is a set of points (called nodes) connected by lines (or curves) called arcs.  A tree is a graph with a single 'top' node called the root (for us, the whole sentence) and without cycles.  No cycles means that from one node to another there's only one path, and a node has at most one 'ancestor' leading toward the root.  Nodes may have descendents; these are called 'inner' (or 'non-terminal') nodes.  Nodes at the bottom of the tree, called 'leaf' or 'terminal' nodes have no descendents.  Leaf nodes represent unmodified individual words.  The inner nodes represent constructions (words with modifiers, phrases, clauses, conjuntion-joinings, appositives and parentheticals, &c &c &c & &c).

Why is this more important than the cost of a good cup of coffee?

We speak, write, hear, and read linear strings of words.  When we speak or write, we need to turn the tree of meaning (in our minds) into that string of words.  When we hear or read, we need to turn the linear string of words back into that tree of meaning.

'Grammar' describes the allowable structure of the tree, and how it is converted to and from the linear sequence of words.  Converting the string into the tree is called 'parsing' and it is a harder problem than generating the string.  Strunk and White present the example of an eliided 'that'.  I'll modify the example:

'He felt * his nose, which was over an inch long, made him look ridiculous.'

There's an implied 'that' at the asterisk, but the reader can't realize it until somewhere after the word 'made'.  This case, the elided 'that', is peculiar to English, but the general parsing problem is inherently more difficult than generating the string.  You can explore the drowning depths of the question in the WikiP articles on Backus-Naur Form and Formal Language Theory.  But the essence is fairly simple.

When you are constructing the hierarchical sentence in your mind, you are attaching the words, one by one, to that notional parse tree.  You need to know where to attach each word.  Does it go on the previous word or construct, or does it go on a more remote node?

'red train' => 'train' attached below 'red'
'Jesus wept' => 'Jesus' the subject below 'wept, 'wept' the verb below predicate, predicate below clause. below sentence.

Now consider "He felt that his big nose, which was over an inch long, made him look ridiculous."  This is an easy sentence for an adult reader of English to understand, but it is frightfully complex viewed as grammar.  "that his big nose ...." is a free relative clause serving as the direct object of 'felt'.  (Yes, there are other ways to describe it, but they won't change my basic point.)  Let's look at that clause.

His big nose which was over an inch long made him look ridiculous.

I've omitted all commas so we can ask "Why and where do we put commas?"  (Have patience.  We're getting close to my point.)

Read this sentence aloud (if you can, otherwise aloud in your mind).  Where do you pause slightly?  I think you'll find it's before 'which' and after 'long'.  Why do you delay there?  Is it because you've been taught where to put commas?  Or is it because the pauses are natural in the sentence structure?

Whether you pause because of the mental processes involved in constructing the sentence, or because you want to communicate that structure, the listener will discern the pauses and infer from them the structure they indicate.

I want to focus now on that second pause: "... over an inch long, made him look ridiculous."  What does this indicate in the tree-structured grammar hierarchy?  It indicates that the word 'ridiculous' ends a branch of the tree, and the next word attaches somewhere above that branch.  The next word, 'made', ties back to 'nose'.  'made' is the verb (of the predicate) of which 'nose' is the subject.  Everything between was a modifier on 'nose', a node below 'nose' in the grammar tree.  But 'made' belongs to the predicate, which is actually above nose in the grammar tree.

This break upward in the parse is what the natural pause indicates.  This is what I hold the comma ought to indicate.

Now we can examine why the stylebook rules cannot, in general, be right.

They call for commas to be placed before or after certain types of clauses, phrases, or other constructions.  For appositives and parenthetical phrases, the comma use is part of basic English punctuation, universal and not limited to a stylebook.  Likewise, commas used for series are pretty much univeral (excluding the Oxford comma).  I don't think any stylebook will say not to use them.

But the prescription to place commas before or after certain clauses and phrases, or between this and that, are based on the types of the nodes in the tree, not on the need to indicate a change, from adding to the current place in the tree, to a much higher place in the tree.  What the reader needs to know is where the parse breaks from a lower-level structure and moves back up the tree.  If the comma is to help the reader, it must tell the reader what the reader needs to know.  It must tell the reader when the parse breaks back up the parse tree.

Rules based on the type of the grammar nodes can only be right in some cases, not all.  Nor can they deal with sentences that might require, according to their rules, many commas at many levels of the grammar tree.  A sentence festooned with one comma for every five or six words will most often be hard to read.  The greater the break in levels, the greater the need for the comma.  The mind can easily connect a break of a level or two, but when the break is the end of a clause nested in a clause or phrase, or a combination of clause and conjunction, the comma is a great help to the reader.  Thus, where there is a question of where to put the comma(s), the comma(s) should be placed at the largest breaks, that is, the breaks across the greatest number of levels of the parse.

The stylebooks' use of the grammar node type is an attempt to spare their users the need to fully understand their sentences' structures.  The consequences are not good.

So I hold.
So I declare.
So I proclaim.

good lord

Re: Comma before "as if"?

Dallas Wright wrote:
njc wrote:

The problem with stylebook comma rules is that they look at the type of node rather than the tree structure.

What in the thundering infernal blazes do I mean by that?

Well, bear with me.  It will take a bunch of words to explain, but it's really very simple.  It's also easier to explain with drawings than in words alone, and I might put some up later.

Some among us may remember 'diagramming' sentences as a way to show the grammatical structure graphically.  The point of diagramming is that our grammar is (a) hierarchical (tree-structured) and (b) recursive--you can turn entire clauses into modifiers (using relative pronouns and subordinating conjunctions) or nouns (using relative pronouns), bury nouns in modifiers (prepositional phrases) and turn predicates into nouns and adjectives (gerunds and participles).  This means that structure repeats within structure.  Mathematics has a tool to describe this: the tree.  This tree, and the theory around it, is a limited kind of  'graph'.  It has another tool: Formal Language Theory, which makes heavy use of graphs.

There's all sorts of neat theory here, and especially a lot of neat algorithms, but we won't need to wrangle any of that.  We just need the tree as a picture.

A graph, in graph theory, is a set of points (called nodes) connected by lines (or curves) called arcs.  A tree is a graph with a single 'top' node called the root (for us, the whole sentence) and without cycles.  No cycles means that from one node to another there's only one path, and a node has at most one 'ancestor' leading toward the root.  Nodes may have descendents; these are called 'inner' (or 'non-terminal') nodes.  Nodes at the bottom of the tree, called 'leaf' or 'terminal' nodes have no descendents.  Leaf nodes represent unmodified individual words.  The inner nodes represent constructions (words with modifiers, phrases, clauses, conjuntion-joinings, appositives and parentheticals, &c &c &c & &c).

Why is this more important than the cost of a good cup of coffee?

We speak, write, hear, and read linear strings of words.  When we speak or write, we need to turn the tree of meaning (in our minds) into that string of words.  When we hear or read, we need to turn the linear string of words back into that tree of meaning.

'Grammar' describes the allowable structure of the tree, and how it is converted to and from the linear sequence of words.  Converting the string into the tree is called 'parsing' and it is a harder problem than generating the string.  Strunk and White present the example of an eliided 'that'.  I'll modify the example:

'He felt * his nose, which was over an inch long, made him look ridiculous.'

There's an implied 'that' at the asterisk, but the reader can't realize it until somewhere after the word 'made'.  This case, the elided 'that', is peculiar to English, but the general parsing problem is inherently more difficult than generating the string.  You can explore the drowning depths of the question in the WikiP articles on Backus-Naur Form and Formal Language Theory.  But the essence is fairly simple.

When you are constructing the hierarchical sentence in your mind, you are attaching the words, one by one, to that notional parse tree.  You need to know where to attach each word.  Does it go on the previous word or construct, or does it go on a more remote node?

'red train' => 'train' attached below 'red'
'Jesus wept' => 'Jesus' the subject below 'wept, 'wept' the verb below predicate, predicate below clause. below sentence.

Now consider "He felt that his big nose, which was over an inch long, made him look ridiculous."  This is an easy sentence for an adult reader of English to understand, but it is frightfully complex viewed as grammar.  "that his big nose ...." is a free relative clause serving as the direct object of 'felt'.  (Yes, there are other ways to describe it, but they won't change my basic point.)  Let's look at that clause.

His big nose which was over an inch long made him look ridiculous.

I've omitted all commas so we can ask "Why and where do we put commas?"  (Have patience.  We're getting close to my point.)

Read this sentence aloud (if you can, otherwise aloud in your mind).  Where do you pause slightly?  I think you'll find it's before 'which' and after 'long'.  Why do you delay there?  Is it because you've been taught where to put commas?  Or is it because the pauses are natural in the sentence structure?

Whether you pause because of the mental processes involved in constructing the sentence, or because you want to communicate that structure, the listener will discern the pauses and infer from them the structure they indicate.

I want to focus now on that second pause: "... over an inch long, made him look ridiculous."  What does this indicate in the tree-structured grammar hierarchy?  It indicates that the word 'ridiculous' ends a branch of the tree, and the next word attaches somewhere above that branch.  The next word, 'made', ties back to 'nose'.  'made' is the verb (of the predicate) of which 'nose' is the subject.  Everything between was a modifier on 'nose', a node below 'nose' in the grammar tree.  But 'made' belongs to the predicate, which is actually above nose in the grammar tree.

This break upward in the parse is what the natural pause indicates.  This is what I hold the comma ought to indicate.

Now we can examine why the stylebook rules cannot, in general, be right.

They call for commas to be placed before or after certain types of clauses, phrases, or other constructions.  For appositives and parenthetical phrases, the comma use is part of basic English punctuation, universal and not limited to a stylebook.  Likewise, commas used for series are pretty much univeral (excluding the Oxford comma).  I don't think any stylebook will say not to use them.

But the prescription to place commas before or after certain clauses and phrases, or between this and that, are based on the types of the nodes in the tree, not on the need to indicate a change, from adding to the current place in the tree, to a much higher place in the tree.  What the reader needs to know is where the parse breaks from a lower-level structure and moves back up the tree.  If the comma is to help the reader, it must tell the reader what the reader needs to know.  It must tell the reader when the parse breaks back up the parse tree.

Rules based on the type of the grammar nodes can only be right in some cases, not all.  Nor can they deal with sentences that might require, according to their rules, many commas at many levels of the grammar tree.  A sentence festooned with one comma for every five or six words will most often be hard to read.  The greater the break in levels, the greater the need for the comma.  The mind can easily connect a break of a level or two, but when the break is the end of a clause nested in a clause or phrase, or a combination of clause and conjunction, the comma is a great help to the reader.  Thus, where there is a question of where to put the comma(s), the comma(s) should be placed at the largest breaks, that is, the breaks across the greatest number of levels of the parse.

The stylebooks' use of the grammar node type is an attempt to spare their users the need to fully understand their sentences' structures.  The consequences are not good.

So I hold.
So I declare.
So I proclaim.

good lord

Amen

9 (edited by njc 2018-06-01 15:04:25)

Re: Comma before "as if"?

You've expressed disdain, surprise, alarm, ... what else?  But you haven't addressed the argument.  Am I a rebel?  Am I a fool?  Is the argument wrong?  If so, why?  In what particulars?

Re: Comma before "as if"?

Dirk B. wrote:
Rachel (Rhiannon) Parsons wrote:

In this case, the comma is irrelevant as it is a prepositional adjectival phrase that modifies the noun, 'apprehension'

I'm so old, I don't think they had those when I was in school. :-)

Thanks for the info.
Dirk

You can't be that old, they're mentioned in McGuffy's Grammar, *the* book on grammar in the 19th century.  From you picture you don't look a day over one hundred.

Re: Comma before "as if"?

njc wrote:

You've expressed disdain, surprise, alarm, ... what else?  But you haven't addressed the argument.  Am I a rebel?  Am I a fool?  Is the argument wrong?  If so, why?  In what particulars?

I loved your 'mathematical' analysis of grammar.  I made my living as a math tutor, and I also tutor writing, hence, grammar.  I'm not sure what stylebooks you are referring to--unless its 'Grammarly.'  I see some of the stylebook problems you allude to in that, but your argument that commas should be relative to the sentence-tree seems to be reflected in the grammar books I use and it certainly is in the McGuffy's grammar book  It explains the use of commas in conjunctions between sentences, but not between compound predicates, it explains the reason for them in introductory phrases, in a list, in coordinating adjectival prepositional phrases, (which comes to my mind as there is a proposed ballot proposition which uses a comma that way and clues the astute reader into what the sentence involves actually means, as opposed to what thousands of people believe in means), and when commas are to be used when there is a pause and there isn't.  It shows why the pause is a good rule of thumb but not an absolute.  So I just don't see how you are saying anything inconsistent with what grammarians say, except you say it in a long way.

12 (edited by j p lundstrom 2018-06-01 19:22:42)

Re: Comma before "as if"?

Could somebody parse this, please?

To celebrate his book's arrival on the New York times best seller list Dirk and his twin brother Dallas spent the night drinking and carousing as if they were back in college.

13 (edited by njc 2018-06-01 19:59:30)

Re: Comma before "as if"?

I get criticized by stylebook adherents (most commonly of the AP stylebook) who insist that the type of clause, or phrase, or other construct, determines whether a comma is to be inserted, rather than the parsing context.  Even saying 'between clauses but not compound predicates' depends on the type of node rather than on the movement down and up the tree.

What level math do you tutor?

14 (edited by njc 2018-06-02 04:16:06)

Re: Comma before "as if"?

j p lundstrom wrote:

Could somebody parse this, please?

To celebrate his book's arrival on the New York times best seller list Dirk and his twin brother Dallas spent the night drinking and carousing as if they were back in college.

Note the difference between parens and curly braces.

(To celebrate {infinitive phrase acting as an adverb of place/circumstance/purpose} (his book's arrival { 'his' modifying 'book', poss. of 'book' modifying 'arrival' } ( on the N.Y.Times' best seller list { prep. phrase 'on list', 'list' modified by 'best seller' as a compound noun, modified by poss. 'N.Y.Times', article 'the' applies to 'list'} ) ) ( (Dirk and his twin brother Dallas {proper nouns in 'and' conjunction as subject of 'spent'; 'brother' the noun following 'and', 'his' (poss.) and 'twin' modifying 'brother', 'Dallas' as an appositive on 'brother'} ( spent {verb of main clause predicate} (the night {direct object of 'spent', modified by article 'the'} ) ( carousing and drinking ) {verbs joined by conjunction in a construction whose name I have forgotten; alternatively you could claim they are gerunds, object of an elided 'in', creating a prep. phrase with adverbial effect } (as if they were back in college { 'as if' acts as a subordinating conjunction; the subsequent clause uses a copula in the subjunctive with back in college' acting as a predicate adjective on the copula } .)

I hope I've got all the parentheses matched.  Note that English sometimes allows multiple parses, and grammarians disagree on some things.

Let the arguments begin!  (And if you've got a clean way to lay this out on a web page w/o formatting control, please tell me.)

Re: Comma before "as if"?

njc wrote:

I get criticized by stylebook adherents (most commonly of the AP stylebook) who insist that the type of clause, or phrase, or other construct, determines whether a comma is to be inserted, rather than the parsing context.  Even saying 'between clauses but not compound predicates' depends on the type of node rather than on the movement down and up the tree.

What level math do you tutor?

All levels through first year college. Oh, the AP stylebook.  Try the MLA stylebook--more in keeping with traditional grammar. The type does determine whether a comma is to be inserted, but that actually is derivative from the parsing context. There may be some hinterland differences, but in general, that's how it goes.

Re: Comma before "as if"?

Comma cat fight....

Re: Comma before "as if"?

Dallas Wright wrote:

Comma cat fight....

In the immortal words of Neil Sedaka, comma, comma, down, doobie-do, down, down.

Re: Comma before "as if"?

j p lundstrom wrote:

Could somebody parse this, please?

To celebrate his book's arrival on the New York times best seller list Dirk and his twin brother Dallas spent the night drinking and carousing as if they were back in college.

Is it too late to go back to Norm d'Plume?

19 (edited by Dallas Wright 2018-06-01 22:09:12)

Re: Comma before "as if"?

Dirk B. wrote:
j p lundstrom wrote:

Could somebody parse this, please?

To celebrate his book's arrival on the New York times best seller list Dirk and his twin brother Dallas spent the night drinking and carousing as if they were back in college.

Is it too late to go back to Norm d'Plume?

Keep the name, but the spooky avatar’s gotta go.  LOL
(We’ll have a “coontest” to findya a new one....)

Re: Comma before "as if"?

Dallas, see my comment on the "Coontest" thread.

Re: Comma before "as if"?

Sideman wrote:

Dallas, see my comment on the "Coontest" thread.

Lighten up, Sideman.  Don’t let that chip on your shoulder affect your sense of humor.  I have one leg and can’t hear in my left ear, and I have half of three fingers missing from an industrial accident.  Life sucks, but you just gotta roll with it.

Re: Comma before "as if"?

No chip on my shoulder - I just don't tolerate rudeness well.

My last comment on the issue.

Re: Comma before "as if"?

Now I don't know what it was I been listenin' to, but what it ain't is decent talkin'. I mean all this parsing and stylebooking and tree nodes and I don't know whatall just sounds indecent and ain't much help to us non-alien  comma criminals. If it sounds like I need to stop and take a leak or something while reading the thing, I'll throw in a comma and if it don't sound that way, well, I just let somebody higher up that grammar tree worry about it. I ain't losing no sleep over it either way. Where the hell is good non-political Trump tweet when you need it? Ya'll carry on now cause this is way over my noggin. Take care. Vern

24

Re: Comma before "as if"?

Rachel (Rhiannon) Parsons wrote:
njc wrote:

I get criticized by stylebook adherents (most commonly of the AP stylebook) who insist that the type of clause, or phrase, or other construct, determines whether a comma is to be inserted, rather than the parsing context.  Even saying 'between clauses but not compound predicates' depends on the type of node rather than on the movement down and up the tree.

What level math do you tutor?

All levels through first year college. Oh, the AP stylebook.  Try the MLA stylebook--more in keeping with traditional grammar. The type does determine whether a comma is to be inserted, but that actually is derivative from the parsing context. There may be some hinterland differences, but in general, that's how it goes.

Math major math or applied math?  If it's math major math, I'm in minor awe.