51 Reply by Randall Krzak (edited by Randall Krzak 2018-02-26 14:25:37)

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

vern wrote:

I've made my point before, but I'll reiterate here that "readers" are more important in reviewing our work than "writers" for the same purpose. I'll just close by saying that you can regulate the subject matter within these threads, but you can't regulate the difference of opinions which some seem to think is an albatross around our necks when in fact it is our strength. Take care. Vern

Well said, Vern. While I value the feedback from TNBW writers, ultimately it is readers who buy our work (or not). Having their input at the beginning is a great way to improve the process. At least, that's my opinion.:)

Quote Post 51

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

In case nobody has noticed, William Short has closed his account after having been here on this site before any of the rest of us.  What is wrong that we older members keep pissing people off so they leave?  These threads should be helpful, not harmful.  I think Sol had a good idea when he said he didn't want these forums at all.  Just my opinion.

Quote Post 52

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

Was it something I said? I wasn't trying to be argumentative, just chatting. What a shame.

Quote Post 53

54 Reply by Memphis Trace (edited by Memphis Trace 2018-02-26 16:34:04)

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

vern wrote:

So, let me get this straight. People are so concerned about the discussion of politics/religion in the forums that they're basically banned from the Premium Group because folks want to discuss only writing subjects. No political discussion here for several days now. And here we have a "writing/reading" thread generating more contention than most political ones and it's turning people away from the site.

There is something wrong with this picture. Perhaps it should be placed in the flash fiction contest. I've made my point before, but I'll reiterate here that "readers" are more important in reviewing our work than "writers" for the same purpose. I'll just close by saying that you can regulate the subject matter within these threads, but you can't regulate the difference of opinions which some seem to think is an albatross around our necks when in fact it is our strength. Take care. Vern

Well said.

Memphis Trace

Quote Post 54

55 Reply by kraptonite (edited by kraptonite 2018-02-26 17:32:23)

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

Booksie.com for readers. TheNextBigWriter.com for writers... and never the twain, I think is where the discussion ended.

Paid-up members 'insulted' that a freebie basic member can read content and leave a review. Also 'developer' writers wanting technical 'writers' reviews rather than 'readers feedback' -- not understanding why any ‘reader’ would want to read Works-In-Progress manuscripts.

The paid-up members have absolute precedence of course.

I'm an old/new member and at the moment also a Basic member on the same thin-ice as William. However, I do intend to go to a full writers membership at some point, but in the meantime I am reviewing in order to rack up a few points to allow me to post my stories. If this is an insult to you, or baffles you please message me and I'll avoid reviewing your work. I've recently been politely informed within a review reply, that the author doesn’t need reviews. That is appreciated, but I’d rather know before I pen the review because I’m trying to make the review meaningful (in so much as I can).

Quote Post 55

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

kraptonite wrote:

I've recently been politely informed within a review reply, that the author doesn’t need reviews. That is appreciated, but I’d rather know before I pen the review because I’m trying to make the review meaningful (in so much as I can).

I wonder what they felt they achieved by posting their work on a review site, if they didn't want it reviewed? Readers are appreciated for their views, but for a writer to post work they don't want to hear anything about? Why? To me, that seems rather odd.

Quote Post 56

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

Lynne Clark wrote:
kraptonite wrote:

I've recently been politely informed within a review reply, that the author doesn’t need reviews. That is appreciated, but I’d rather know before I pen the review because I’m trying to make the review meaningful (in so much as I can).

I wonder what they felt they achieved by posting their work on a review site, if they didn't want it reviewed? Readers are appreciated for their views, but for a writer to post work they don't want to hear anything about? Why? To me, that seems rather odd.


Does seem very strange.

Quote Post 57

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

kraptonite wrote:

I'm an old/new member and at the moment also a Basic member on the same thin-ice as William. However, I do intend to go to a full writers membership at some point, but in the meantime, I am reviewing in order to rack up a few points to allow me to post my stories. If this is an insult to you, or baffles you please message me and I'll avoid reviewing your work. I've recently been politely informed within a review reply, that the author doesn’t need reviews. That is appreciated, but I’d rather know before I pen the review because I’m trying to make the review meaningful (in so much as I can).

It doesn't bother me in the least that you, or anyone else, is 'just' a reviewer.  Some of my best help has come from people who only review and never post their own work.  Whether you're a basic member or a full-fledged one makes no difference to me, NOT TO MENTION IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS.  As for the person saying they didn't need reviews, then why did they post their work to begin with?  Don't waste my time.  If a writer doesn't need or want reviews, please state that in the beginning in the chapter description because I certainly have more important things to do than waste my time where it's not wanted or needed.

Quote Post 58

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

I joined the old site in 2007 and reviewed for several months before starting to post my work. Folks want to review without posting, that's their right and our benefit. If someone wants to post their writing, yet doesn't want reviews, then that is their right also, but they should state that upfront so that others don't waste their time; just a simple courtesy. People review different ways and accept reviews in different ways, some use regular, some use in-line reviews and some writers prefer one over the other while others don't care as long as you give an honest review pros and cons. People are different and should be left to their eccentricities as long as they don't adversely effect others. That's just plain decency in my humble opinion. I'm already getting nostalgic for the "good ol days" of a different sort of debate. Take care. Vern

Quote Post 59

60 Reply by kraptonite (edited by kraptonite 2018-02-26 19:37:44)

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

Lynne Clark wrote:
kraptonite wrote:

I've recently been politely informed within a review reply, that the author doesn’t need reviews. That is appreciated, but I’d rather know before I pen the review because I’m trying to make the review meaningful (in so much as I can).

I wonder what they felt they achieved by posting their work on a review site, if they didn't want it reviewed? Readers are appreciated for their views, but for a writer to post work they don't want to hear anything about? Why? To me, that seems rather odd.

It was not impolite. Just the opposite in fact.Very genial.

A simple, “I'm not looking for new reviewers.” Which is fair enough and totally legitimate. Wouldn’t you rather know? Probably the piece is developed as far as it will be and no further critique is required. More likely my review was deemed inane. I just blathered on about how much I admire the writing and how good the story is. Which is totally true. I read the piece amongst many others and it was 'stand-out' and so I felt compelled to let the author know how it struck me. The author did invite me keep reading and reviewing the other chapters on meaningless basis if I need to accrue the points.

I did continue reading, but lesson learned, if I’m going to review I’ll do it for new pieces that pay decent points.

Quote Post 60

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

In any case, I'd far rather that an author politely informs me that he's not looking for new reviewers than snap at me.

I have to chuckle at the turnaround though. During my first appearance on the site, many years ago, authors used to love the non-writer reviewers because without work of their own, there was no need (or even possibility) to reciprocate the review out a sense of duty.

I did review a couple of novels, first chapter to last on the old site and I can't tell you how excited and gratified I was when the author (Nadine -- Brosna) incorporated a couple of my minor suggestions into her prose. I swelled up for about a fortnight.

Quote Post 61

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

And (sorry for keep coming back), I have to say that a positive relationship with said gracious lady author on this site, prompted me to read a library of books and take a Creative Writing Course at the National Library of Aruba. Changed my life. As simple as.

Quote Post 62

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

kraptonite wrote:

And (sorry for keep coming back), I have to say that a positive relationship with said gracious lady author on this site, prompted me to read a library of books and take a Creative Writing Course at the National Library of Aruba. Changed my life. As simple as.

Oh well done you. I think your explanation casts a different light on the reviewer question.  I find it very difficult to review work I actively dislike. I don't mind pulling apart something I can find something in but if it leaves me quite cold? No. Is that usual or just me?

Quote Post 63

64 Reply by Bevin Wallace (edited by Bevin Wallace 2018-02-26 21:56:27)

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

I have guided several friends to this site over the last year.  All have left.  Three of four said that after reading this forum, they left.  (One yesterday after reading the contents of THIS thread).  Granted, they (wrongly, I tried to convince them) assumed that the members who populate the forum are representative of the writers on this site as a whole.  I tried my best to suggest they just stay off the forums.  Didn’t work.  Luckily they found a home elsewhere. 
I will share with you a note from one who left recently:
“I appreciate your defending the site, Bevin, but seems to me it’s  overrun by a handful of grumpy retirees who spend most of their time bitching about other members on the site, politics, and society in general.  I checked, and some of the most active people on that forum hardly write or review.  Why are they there?  Just lonely and have nothing else to do?  It’s pathetic.  They write more on the forum than they post as writers.  They’re cynical, jaded, and intolerant. Why would I want to engage with them?  You’ve got a few of them that seem to haunt the forum just looking for someone to attack or something to complain about or pontificate on.  If they were actually writing and reviewing and adding value, I could understand.  It screws with my writing karma, Bev.  Also, the system is screwed up.  You’ve only got about a dozen people there who really try to make an effort to throughly review.  On the other hand, you have a bunch who do as little as they can just to keep posting their own.  There are at least two [names redacted] who give these silly regular reviews what are just 50-words of nonsense — just so they can collect points to post.  So, you end up getting the same credit for cutting and pasting some “50-word puff-praise” as you do spending two hours trying to really help the author.  You tell me how that makes sense.   Some are the reviewers are harsh, but I would rather have a harsh, honest review than some 50-word puff up my skirt.  Sure, if feels good for that one second, but does it improve my writing?  I think not.  Thanks again for trying to help, Bevin, but I’d rather stay away.  Good luck.”

Food for thought.  And please don’t attack me. I am just providing feedback from a “leaver” in hopes it might generate some soul-searching.

Quote Post 64

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

Bevin Wallace wrote:

“I appreciate your defending the site, Bevin, but seems to me it’s  overrun by a handful of grumpy retirees who spend most of their time bitching about other members on the site, politics, and society in general.  I checked, and some of the most active people on that forum hardly write or review.  Why are they there?  Just lonely and have nothing else to do?  It’s pathetic.  They write more on the forum than they post as writers.  They’re cynical, jaded, and intolerant. Why would I want to engage with them?  You’ve got a few of them that seem to haunt the forum just looking for someone to attack or something to complain about or pontificate on.  If they were actually writing and reviewing and adding value, I could understand.  It screws with my writing karma, Bev. 

Food for thought.  And please don’t attack me. I am just providing feedback from a “leaver” in hopes it might generate some soul-searching.

I hate to say it, but for the most part your 'leaver' is correct.  We've all had our moments in the forums.  But lately it seems we're running off more people than helping anyone.

Maybe Sol can stop these forums from being 'public' posts.  Maybe we should have forums that we have to join, like our groups here that we have to join.  That way, if you don't want to see the crap that's posted, don't join.

Quote Post 65

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

Maybe Sol can stop these forums from being 'public' posts.  Maybe we should have forums that we have to join, like our groups here that we have to join.  That way, if you don't want to see the crap that's posted, don't join.

I've been thinking more and more of going towards that model. It may be that new members are not immediately put into the Premium group and can choose Groups to join that suit their tastes. In theory anyone can leave Premium, but when you're defaulted into it that doesn't seem to happen. Another idea may be to remove the forums from the homepage. Users will have to actually visit their Groups to participate. I've received too many complaints to think that something doesn't have to change.

Quote Post 66

67 Reply by Norm d'Plume (edited by Norm d'Plume 2018-02-26 23:05:44)

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

SolN wrote:

Maybe Sol can stop these forums from being 'public' posts.  Maybe we should have forums that we have to join, like our groups here that we have to join.  That way, if you don't want to see the crap that's posted, don't join.

I've been thinking more and more of going towards that model. It may be that new members are not immediately put into the Premium group and can choose Groups to join that suit their tastes. In theory anyone can leave Premium, but when you're defaulted into it that doesn't seem to happen. Another idea may be to remove the forums from the homepage. Users will have to actually visit their Groups to participate. I've received too many complaints to think that something doesn't have to change.

Apparently I'm not the only who thought this particular thread was overly critical.

Given how devoid all of the forums are of posts, not including new members into Premium by default would probably make the site look like a ghost town for new members. Premium is their best chance to introduce themselves to the widest possible audience. It's also where I go to find the widest possible expertise on writing subjects that I need help with, so the fewer the number of members in Premium, the less useful it becomes to existing members.

PLEASE do not force us to visit each group individually to look for new posts. That's just a clickfest that greatly reduces usability. I'd probably drop down to two or three groups and ignore everything else, which further reduces the visible activity that makes for a thriving site.

The real problem is the overall tone of some of the forum posts on this site. Other forums sites I'm on wouldn't tolerate some of the posts that we get here. I've done a few myself here, so I'm guilty too. Other sites not only have multiple moderators who give warnings and can shut down threads, but regular members also chime in when they think someone is being obnoxious or disrespectful, usually well before a moderator gets involved.

I'm not sure if our site's architecture can support multiple moderators (so you, Sol, don't have to be the only traffic cop in Premium), but there are many long-term members on this site that I would trust as additional moderators. If they issue a warning or shut something down, I'd support them 100%, even if I probably wouldn't always agree with them. I doubt it would take many interventions to raise the level of interactions to a respectful level.

Quote Post 67

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

No one is forced to go into a specific forum thread. I'm not quite sure what the big deal is, other than to say people really need to lighten up. The world is full of offensive and noxious stimuli (try reading some of the "trolls" commenting on mainstream news and entertainment web sites). Some people just seem to be looking to be offended. I use TNBW as a reading and writing workshop - period. Even when I'm not actively writing / going through a dry spell, I still hone my skills by reading and reviewing/editing a broad range of writing types. I occasionally check out the forums, mostly because the "arguments" are often amusing and well-written. Barring overt hate speech -- which I haven't encountered -- I'm not sure why anyone would want to censor the forums or take anything too personally. As for newbies who are turned off by the forums, I'd suggest they spend more time cultivating relationships with some of the talented and exceptionally generous writers/reviewers on this site.

Quote Post 68

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

SolN wrote:

Maybe Sol can stop these forums from being 'public' posts.  Maybe we should have forums that we have to join, like our groups here that we have to join.  That way, if you don't want to see the crap that's posted, don't join.

I've been thinking more and more of going towards that model. It may be that new members are not immediately put into the Premium group and can choose Groups to join that suit their tastes. In theory anyone can leave Premium, but when you're defaulted into it that doesn't seem to happen. Another idea may be to remove the forums from the homepage. Users will have to actually visit their Groups to participate. I've received too many complaints to think that something doesn't have to change.

I think removing them from the front page is the best bet.  Right now, they're front and center when you open the home page.  Premium forums are at the top.  It's hard not to click a topic because all of us are curious by nature.  I think moving them is a good idea.

Quote Post 69

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

graymartin wrote:

I use TNBW as a reading and writing workshop - period. Even when I'm not actively writing / going through a dry spell, I still hone my skills by reading and reviewing/editing a broad range of writing types. I occasionally check out the forums, mostly because the "arguments" are often amusing and well-written. Barring overt hate speech -- which I haven't encountered -- I'm not sure why anyone would want to censor the forums or take anything too personally. As for newbies who are turned off by the forums, I'd suggest they spend more time cultivating relationships with some of the talented and exceptionally generous writers/reviewers on this site.

I fully agree with Graymartin. For me, TNBW is a great site for improving skills. I rarely read the forums or respond. In fact, when I began this thread, it was because I wondered about new members posting and then disappearing without acknowledgement of reviews. To me, it seemed a bit rude.

Quote Post 70

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

graymartin wrote:

No one is forced to go into a specific forum thread. I'm not quite sure what the big deal is, other than to say people really need to lighten up. The world is full of offensive and noxious stimuli (try reading some of the "trolls" commenting on mainstream news and entertainment web sites). Some people just seem to be looking to be offended. I use TNBW as a reading and writing workshop - period. Even when I'm not actively writing / going through a dry spell, I still hone my skills by reading and reviewing/editing a broad range of writing types. I occasionally check out the forums, mostly because the "arguments" are often amusing and well-written. Barring overt hate speech -- which I haven't encountered -- I'm not sure why anyone would want to censor the forums or take anything too personally. As for newbies who are turned off by the forums, I'd suggest they spend more time cultivating relationships with some of the talented and exceptionally generous writers/reviewers on this site.

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN! We go through this type discourse periodically (too often) when it is totally illogical. Best way to put a stop to it is put a big glaring neon sign on the front page telling everyone who is or might be offended by opinions which differ from theirs not to read the forums, period. No one is forcing anyone to do so and quite frankly imo removing or hiding the forums is the best way to slowly (or not so slowly) kill the site. Take care. Vern

Quote Post 71

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

This imbroglio has been my fault. I've been far too lax with the forums. Allowing a thread that calls out new members is not the best way to go about enlarging the site. Allowing politics and topics unrelated to writing in the Premium forum was a bad idea also. Unless the thread deals with a writing-related topic, it doesn't belong. If the thread gets overly argumentative, noxious, or offensive, it will be gone. Premium is like the town commons and in public, there shouldn't be drunkness, disorderly conduct, or bar brawls, no matter if the participants shake hands and make up the next day. It looks bad for the town.

But behind closed doors you can do whatever you want. There are already plenty of other groups you can belong to. Or, you can start one of your own and create whatever rules you want. This is why I designed the site the way I did.

I appreciate all of your thoughts and feedback. I'm going to close the thread tomorrow.

Sol

Quote Post 72

73 Reply by Memphis Trace (edited by Memphis Trace 2018-02-27 08:44:34)

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

SolN wrote:

This imbroglio has been my fault. I've been far too lax with the forums. Allowing a thread that calls out new members is not the best way to go about enlarging the site. Allowing politics and topics unrelated to writing in the Premium forum was a bad idea also. Unless the thread deals with a writing-related topic, it doesn't belong. If the thread gets overly argumentative, noxious, or offensive, it will be gone. Premium is like the town commons and in public, there shouldn't be drunkeness, disorderly conduct, or bar brawls, no matter if the participants shake hands and make up the next day. It looks bad for the town.

I understand and support your desire to maintain a public image of writers writing and helping others write.

And I really appreciate your willingness to foster a place where writers and readers can have a platform to debate the very important current events and the advance/decline of the culture. I have belonged to another site, Scribophile, for four years and they are missing that.

I believe a CLOSED—Members Only forum to discuss controversial issues would enhance the site. I believe charging more to join—or even view—such a forum would attract writers and readers to join and take the time to formulate and state eloquently their thinking.   

SolN wrote:

But behind closed doors you can do whatever you want. There are already plenty of other groups you can belong to. Or, you can start one of your own and create whatever rules you want. This is why I designed the site the way I did.

And the design fills an important void. I believe it creates a place where fine writers can vigorously argue about the world all around us and hone their critical thinking skills. Creating barriers to belong to the group (added cost, the chance of having one's thinking undressed in the group) would dissuade trolls and flame throwers from entering to disrupt.

Such a platform would further separate TNBW as a site for serious writers and readers.

SolN wrote:

I appreciate all of your thoughts and feedback. I'm going to close the thread tomorrow.

Sol

You created something that has a real chance of being special.

Memphis

Quote Post 73

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

SolN wrote:

This imbroglio has been my fault. I've been far too lax with the forums. Allowing a thread that calls out new members is not the best way to go about enlarging the site. Allowing politics and topics unrelated to writing in the Premium forum was a bad idea also. Unless the thread deals with a writing-related topic, it doesn't belong. If the thread gets overly argumentative, noxious, or offensive, it will be gone. Premium is like the town commons and in public, there shouldn't be drunkness, disorderly conduct, or bar brawls, no matter if the participants shake hands and make up the next day. It looks bad for the town.

But behind closed doors you can do whatever you want. There are already plenty of other groups you can belong to. Or, you can start one of your own and create whatever rules you want. This is why I designed the site the way I did.

I appreciate all of your thoughts and feedback. I'm going to close the thread tomorrow.

Sol

Lots of forums have a group that is specifically for talking about off-topic subjects. It is often called 'The Coffee Shop' or something that suggests sitting around chatting and putting the world to rights. If you opened that group, you can simply refer threads that don't fit the criteria for where it is situated to start a new thread in the off-topic group. Saves offending anyone, you can make it clear that is what it there for, newbies know where to go, or where to avoid. At the moment, you don't seem to have anywhere like this, so as people get chummy, they have nowhere to go and just natter to new found friends. 
I'm not sure I agree with you about the initial question on this thread. It struck me as being a reasonable question, about writing and about writers. It probably shouldn't have fingered anyone in particular, but, that apart, it wasn't contentious imho.  An early shot warning about naming individuals would have been fine, surely?

Quote Post 74

Re: What's With Some of the New Members

Hey Sol...

You need the ability to move threads so you can transplant contentious debates rather than having to end them.

Quote Post 75