Topic: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

I'm currently planning a story set in the Vatican/Rome, where most of the characters speak Italian by default. However, the book is for an English-speaking audience. I was thinking of simply ignoring the language difference and doing all of the dialogue in English, without acknowledging when people are actually speaking Italian. My thought was that most (all?) people in the book will be speaking Italian most of the time, and I don't want lines like this ("Dialogue," he said in Italian.) throughout the book. I suppose I could add a note at the beginning of the book that everyone is really speaking Italian. I should add that there will be Italian place names, which is unavoidable when describing the setting.

Thoughts?

Thanks
Dirk

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2 Reply by B Douglas Slack (edited by B Douglas Slack 2017-10-22 20:27:58)

Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

In my Japanese novel, the first time any dialogue appeared, I mentioned they were speaking Japanese. Then I used English with scattered phrases of Japanese in italics. In spots where they shifted back and forth between the two languages, I had to use the tag you mentioned, but I used it sparingly. It can be done, Dirk. You have to be careful not to overwhelm anyone with "he said in Japanese" tags.

As a secondary thought, if you self-publish through Kindle/Amazon, keep in mind that not all languages (and fonts for those languages) are supported.

Bill

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

You can say it once that the characters said in Italian, and then it should be a given, but you write it in English. Throw in a word that everybody knows now and then, and MAYBE remind periodically that they are speaking Italian.

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

Catchphrases, proverbs, explitives maybe, in the 'real' tongue?

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

Thanks, Bill/Janet/njc. Throwing in occasional words or phrases of actual Italian is appealing, although I'll probably end up with errors. Even Dan Brown got some of his Italian wrong in the original release of Angels & Demons. Fortunately, only real Italian speakers will know. More intimidating is getting inside the head of the most senior cardinal (the Secretary of State) and into meetings of the Council of Cardinal Advisers. How do the most senior Catholics on the planet think and conduct themselves?

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

Check and see how Dan Brown did it in The da Vinci Code. He has enjoyed a modicum of success, if I recall correctly.

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

Thanks, JP. He did the same in Angel & Demons, but got some of it wrong in the original release. His factual errors have their own Wikipedia page, a level of fame I aspire to. :-)

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

I would suggest using a modification of the Universal Translator of Star Trek fame. Be sure to leave a note at the beginning that you are using a Universal Translator Typewriter just in case some might not recognize the text as written. They can be tricky for the uninitiated. Take care. Vern

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

You can say it once that the characters said in Italian, and then it should be a given, but you write it in English. Throw in a word that everybody knows now and then, and MAYBE remind periodically that they are speaking Italian.

I kinda disagree, Janet. If you've established the dialogue is in Italian, then you can't really insert an Italian word here and there. That would be for English-speaking characters to do. Like a mob boss giving an order in English and ending it with "Capisce?"

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

Don't you know anybody from Italy? The best would be to ask a native speaker to translate the lines for you. I did it for Lucy Crowe (Sugar Man's Daughter, Maypops in September, both workshoped in TNBW) even though her quotes were not in Italian but in Spanish--meaning I can't help you, sorry. Lucy used a dictionary and the Google translator and most of the time she got the lines almost right, but there was always something that needed tine tuning. Else, she used an idiom wrong, or an expression that was too formal when her native-speaking character would have used an informal one. This is normal when you don't know the language, and even many times when you know it but it's not your native tongue.

In these internet days, it might not be that difficult to find an Italian native speaker willing to help. There must be chat rooms where you can find an Italian chap or girl who wants to help the next best selling author. mustn't it?

Kiss,

Gacela

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

Mariana, *all* of the dialogue in the book is among native Italians. I can't write an English book with purely Italian dialogue. Who would understand it?

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

No, no, no!  I didn't mean that. I but it's my fault you got it wrong because I had the idea in my mind, but never explained it. I'm just like my own character Melissa, LOL!

I was thinking of "throwing in occasional words or phrases of actual Italian" just like Dan Brown did, but avoiding Dan Brown's mistakes by asking a native speaker to translate them. That was what I did for Lucy Crowe whose character was a Latino living in the USA. Hence, he spoke words in Spanish from time to time.

Kiss,

Gacela

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

Got it. Thanks.

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14 Reply by j p lundstrom (edited by j p lundstrom 2017-10-23 20:19:59)

Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

Mariana Reuter wrote:

Don't you know anybody from Italy? The best would be to ask a native speaker to translate the lines for you. I did it for Lucy Crowe... Lucy used a dictionary and the Google translator and most of the time she got the lines almost right, but there was always something that needed tine tuning. Else, she used an idiom wrong, or an expression that was too formal when her native-speaking character would have used an informal one. This is normal when you don't know the language, and even many times when you know it but it's not your native tongue.

All joking aside, I have been giving the matter serious thought. I have the same problem when I write about the Spanish-speaking community. I do have a smattering of the language I learned as a child and from my high school and college studies. I also learned enough professionally to teach fourth grade, but that isn't good enough for a writer.

One problem is we speak in different registers. A university professor speaks in a different register than does a country farmer, or a fourth-grade teacher, for that matter. Haven't you noticed that Janet Taylor-Perry's characters speak differently than mine? I couldn't write dialog like hers if my life depended on it. When we write dialog in our native language, we use sentence structure, vocabulary and colloquialisms to add nuance to a character's spoken words. It's how we subtly tell our readers the character's education level and social background. If the foreign language you want to use is not also as familiar to you as your own language, you can't do it, not even with computer translators.

Mariana is right, to an extent. A native speaker does have a certain fluency, BUT it's likely that an untrained person doesn't understand how meaningful the differences in register can be. Characters may speak the same language, and correctly, but what we might call the tone is different in the way they talk. And if you, the writer, are not familiar with the language your friend has contributed to your story, how can you be sure they gave you what you needed? (The scariest place this happens is in a court of law, when the interpreter gives the wrong translation. I've seen it happen.)

It drives me crazy when I'm reading a perfectly well-written story and the author has thrown in some imbecilic misuse of foreign language. How stupid would you feel if you were that writer?

I suggest you write everything in YOUR native language, and use action and description to convey to the reader that the characters are speaking in THEIR native language.

Have at it.  JP

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

In the book I just completed (still up on site if you're interested smile ), I had Vietnamese characters speaking to each other. To me, it was obvious they would be speaking in their native language, and I thought no such explanation from me (author intrusion) was needed. Later, a Vietnamese character talks to an American. Because he's become a successful businessman, he has learned English, though he hasn't quite gotten down the use of contractions - a way to set his voice apart. And this same character speaks to an ethnic-Chinese Malaysian, who has had more of a worldly experience than the man from Vietnam, so he speaks in rather fluent English. It's the context of the characters that provides the background for the speech, obviating the need for the author to "explain." The reader will understand. In another story of mine, I have a Lebanese-American ISIS soldier meeting an Arabic sheikh. He speaks Arabic to the sheikh in the greeting, but then the author (me) states that the sheikh switches to English in talking with his acolyte. He does this so his Iraqi bodyguards will not be privy to the conversation. Again, I don't need to say why he does this - it's for the reader to figure it out.

It's a discussion-worthy topic that probably has classes devoted to it in Creative Writing courses. Thanks for bringing it up, Dirk.

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16 Reply by njc

Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

The point about registers is good.  You can also use differerent grammar patterns for speakers in the different languages.  If you know a Latin-speaker it will help ... even if the person only reads it.

Of Yoda-speak a milder version think.

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

jack the knife wrote:

...It's the context of the characters that provides the background for the speech, obviating the need for the author to "explain." ...

Exactly! You said it so much better than I.

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

njc wrote:

You can also use differerent grammar patterns for speakers in the different languages.  If you know a Latin-speaker it will help ... even if the person only reads it.

Well, you can if you're sure that foreign-language speaker can provide dialog in the correct register. But then again, how can you be sure if you yourself don't have the knowledge to do the quality control?

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

In my novel, I was taken to task by reviewers that I did not use enough contractions. Trouble was, the Japanese language does not have  any words for contractions. Oh, in general speech there may be, but when speaking formally -- none. As a result of the reviews, I added contractions to make the story flow better. I didn't even attempt to use proper Japanese construction of English sentences. For instance, the adjectives come before the verb. Ex: "We had a nice meal." In Japanese, you'd say: oyshi shojuji o shimashta (literally Nice meal o did). And that's a simple phrase.

You do what you have to.

Bill

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

Is anyone here following Angela Musumeci's  "The Puppeteer"  in which all the speakers are speaking Italian rendered into English with a cadence that reminds you it is  Italian  or Temple Wang's "Call Me Zhou"  where the speakers must be speaking Chinese but she has chosen to render the dialogue to sound very American?   Neither one has had to remind us of the language. but both styles sound right to me.  You owe these stories a look and maybe find a way to get them to add to this topic.
(I'll send them quickees)
John Matthews

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

Don't you need to be fluent in the language to do that? At best, I might be able to hire someone to translate a few dozen words or phrases sprinkled throughout.

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22 Reply by njc

Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

What if you got some Latin text from Virgil or Marcus Aurelius and fed it to Google Translate?  It might give you something useful.  Or, the text of the Carmina Burana is online.  That has Latin parts, some of them quite racy.  (Et ius virginia, resserassem vincula!)

Latin has no articles.  You might omit them when you can.
The copula is often omitted (In vino veritas).
The in/into distiction gets blurred.
There is an 'absolute' construction for circumstance.  (His horse having been fed, he atttended his guests.)
There are past (plu-) and future perfect tenses corresponding to our perfect aspect, but no distinction matching our progressive (continuing) aspect.
  :
  :

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

No, I need Italian in this case. The Church uses Latin for important written documents, but the common language spoken among the senior cardinals is Italian. Plus, there will be non-Church characters who will also be Italian. So far, all of my major characters speak Italian, although there's nothing that says they can't also speak English.

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Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

Why are you obsessed with using another language in the first place? You've read everything we all had to say about its being unnecessary. So far, we've learned:
When you insert random phrases in a foreign language, you run the risk of making glaring mistakes.
When you ask a fluent speaker to provide phrases, you risk language that may not fit the character or the situation.
When you use an electronic translator, you get gobbledygook.
Why would you even want to mess up your hard work by taking those chances?

Stick to the language you know. It reads better, it'll be easier to write, and you'll look like the intelligent writer you are.  JP

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25 Reply by Norm d'Plume (edited by Norm d'Plume 2017-10-24 18:11:57)

Re: How to handle foreign language dialogue?

I've simply been responding to the suggestions people are making. I don't plan to write in Italian. I couldn't. Based on this discussion, I will either pretend everyone is speaking Italian (rendered into English), and I'll state that in the description a few times where needed, or I'll pretend almost everyone generally speaks English and throw in a few words or phrases in Italian now and then in their dialogue. The latter is what Dan Brown did, and it worked very well.

Thanks to everyone for their ideas.
Dirk

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