Re: Moving a Story Forward

I think you will find most successful authors claim the conflict and the stakes are the heart of a story.

That being said, there is no one who says that word choice is unimportant. I choose my words very carefully, so that my stories read naturally. I hate it when it's obvious the author didn't take the time to choose the best words for the job.

Which means an "artist" who is obsessed with selecting the most erudite-sounding word on the palette is wasting the reader's time. In some cases, the reader won't know the word, and will be driven to the dictionary. In many, many others, the writer has chosen an ill-fitting word (or, God forbid, a homonym), so that his prose looks like donation day at the Good Will. I used to tell my students, "If you don't know that word well enough to use it in fifty different sentences, don't use it in your writing."

In other words, fancy word choice does not equal a good story. Just read Mark Twain.

Re: Moving a Story Forward

j p lundstrom wrote:

In other words, fancy word choice does not equal a good story. Just read Mark Twain.

Amen! One of the best tidbits in this entire thread in my opinion.

Alan

Re: Moving a Story Forward

Sideman wrote:
j p lundstrom wrote:

In other words, fancy word choice does not equal a good story. Just read Mark Twain.

Amen! One of the best tidbits in this entire thread in my opinion.

Alan

I don't think anyone is arguing for using fancy words. The right word doesn't equate to fancy. Mark Twain used the "right" words for his characters and chose them very carefully  --  he did use what some might consider "fancy" words in his writing when called for which was not generally the case in his best known works of Tom and Huck. In any case, I doubt that there are many which would call "paused" a fancy word though it is the one which jump-started this discussion. However you would describe the word (fancy or plain), if it is used in a manner such as a speaker tag where the use defies logic because it could not possibly be spoken -- you can't possibly speak a pause  by definition -- then it just might need to be given a second look.

It should be obvious that one word is not going to make or break a story -- no one is saying such -- but if the wrong words are constantly chosen, a "good story" is most likely not going to be read by a lot of people. Fighting with ill chosen words will dampen the impact of even the best of stories to the point where it just might remain unread. More to the point, there are only so many plots (seven is an often used number though there is jiggle room in both directions) to write a good story about and the way to make our "good story" stand out from the millions of versions of the same storyline is the words we choose to tell that story and the way we put them together. In our own telling, we will hopefully choose words, fancy or not, which is the most appropriate and accurate for the story being told and the characters involved in such story. Every author is certainly entitled to whatever words they so choose regardless of what any reader, editor, publisher, etc. thinks about it even if they produce an impossible scenario as does "paused" used as a speaker tag. No one can choose our words for us without our permission. I offer only my opinion which anyone is free to consider or ignore. Write on. Take care. Vern

Re: Moving a Story Forward

Corra and all,

Sorry I have not been keeping up with this thread. But I still believe it is so important to keep tension alive in your story. I was just critiquing someone's work (no one from this group). There was absolutely no tension so the story was dull and I couldn't wait to finish it. If I was reading the book for pleasure, I would have put it down and never picked it up again.

I just finished a great book about Writing Style by Gary Provost. I'll quote a few of the things he said. "Tension is uneasy suspense. It is a cord, or a series of cords, that stretch across every paragraph that you write. And tension is not always a matter of life and death. It is the thing that makes your reader turn pages. Get your reader into a state of uneasy suspense and keep him there. That means the reader should always be uncertain about what's coming u and should always be asking questions. Tension can come from what's happening in a story, from the words and sentences you use to tell the story, and even from the fact that you're telling the story. 'Why is he telling me this?' is a reader's question which creates tension."

You can do this by using words that raise the stakes: paused, cautious, abruptly, urgently, threatened, froze, waited, defended, hid, fled.  If I write, "Jane ran down the street." Ho-hum - Yawn. But if I write "Jane fled down the street." now you're wondering why, who's after her, did she rob a bank, etc.

"Tension comes from the way you reveal the information." Don't give the answer to the tension too quickly. Take your time to unfold the answer. Let your reader squirm.

If any of you have read Outlander you will know what I mean. The main characters are Jamie Fraser and his wife Claire. They gets into a lot of scrapes. When you read the Claire is talking a walk in the woods, you are on the edge of your seat because you are so concerned she will get kidnapped, raped, robbed, etc. The author, Diana Gabaldon, has set the reader up for this. The entire 8 book series is like that and the author does it paragraph by paragraph building the tension.  Gabaldon claims that she doesn't even have to think about it any more. It just comes naturally. As a reader I got to care about the characters so much that when I would put the book down, I was angry that the characters were fictional. That's great writing. That's what I want to achieve.

I mentioned I belong to another online writing group. Diana Gabaldon belongs to that one as well. She did a sample from her own writing to show how this is done. Impressive.

If you got this far - thanks for reading.
Sherry

30 (edited by Sherry V. Ostroff 2017-09-18 02:35:07)

Re: Moving a Story Forward

vern wrote:

Okay, I'm going to get a little nit-picking here as far as the subject of moving the story forward is concerned -- any good thread always seems to veer from the path somewhat. That being said, if we're going to move forward, it just as well be logical. My concern is the use of "he paused" as a speaker tag as presented above. I bring this up only because it has been used in more than one post. It seems to me rather impossible to speak a pause. You can certainly have a pause after speaking, but you can't speak that pause; therefore it is not an effective speaker tag imho. Thus a period rather than a comma would seem more appropriate in the sentence "'I have terrible news,' he paused." ("... news." He paused.) Just a thought. Take care. Vern

Vern,

No. The "he paused" is not a tag as we use them in dialogue. Let's try "froze" instead because it's getting confused as a dialogue tag. Consider this example.

John walked into the room. He froze.
As a reader, I am wondering why. What's in the room? What does he see? What made him stop?
And I'm not going to give the answer in the next sentence. I may describe some sweet foul odor and an unidentifiable figure bundled in the recliner first. Then I'll reveal to my reader that there's a dead body in the room and it's John's father. 
Sherry

Re: Moving a Story Forward

Sherry V. Ostroff wrote:
vern wrote:

Okay, I'm going to get a little nit-picking here as far as the subject of moving the story forward is concerned -- any good thread always seems to veer from the path somewhat. That being said, if we're going to move forward, it just as well be logical. My concern is the use of "he paused" as a speaker tag as presented above. I bring this up only because it has been used in more than one post. It seems to me rather impossible to speak a pause. You can certainly have a pause after speaking, but you can't speak that pause; therefore it is not an effective speaker tag imho. Thus a period rather than a comma would seem more appropriate in the sentence "'I have terrible news,' he paused." ("... news." He paused.) Just a thought. Take care. Vern

Vern,

No. The "he paused" is not a tag as we use them in dialogue. Let's try "froze" instead because it's getting confused as a dialogue tag. Consider this example.

John walked into the room. He froze.
As a reader, I am wondering why. What's in the room? What does he see? What made him stop?
And I'm not going to give the answer in the next sentence. I may describe some sweet foul odor and an unidentifiable figure bundled in the recliner first. Then I'll reveal to my reader that there's a dead body in the room and it's John's father. 
Sherry

You are correct in that the example you use here is not a speaker tag because there is no dialogue as written. If, however you wrote it as "he paused" was used in the opening of this thread i.e. "'I have terrible news,' he paused" then it would be a speaker tag because "I have terrible news" is written as dialogue. By the same token if you had written, "'I have terrible news.' He paused." then that would not be a speaker tag and this discussion would never have happened. As I've stated, you are of course free to write it any way you wish, but the way the original is written is a speaker tag which makes using "paused" illogical. Still, it is your call to do whatever you wish with your writing. I'm merely pointing out the problem with the way "paused" is used as a speaker tag. The ultimate choice is up to you and any future editor, etc. you may wish to work with. As stated previously, best selling authors may get away with ignoring a lot of technical grammar stuff, but even James Patterson, who was given as an example of one to break the rules, uses the speaker tag correctly in every instance I've seen. Take care. Vern

32

Re: Moving a Story Forward

You write a story.  The story you write isn't the story you want to tell.  The story you write tells the story you want to tell.  But that isn't the story that keeps the listener reading.  The story that pays the reader is told by events in the story that have effects the reader cares about on characters in the story (including characters not shown, eg. everyone who will die if that nuclear bomb goes off), or sometimes on things, if the reader is convinced to value those things.

33 (edited by corra 2017-09-18 16:12:50)

Re: Moving a Story Forward

j.p. lundstrom wrote:

I used to tell my students, "If you don't know that word well enough to use it in fifty different sentences, don't use it in your writing."

Extremely good advice, and exactly my point. KNOW your tools, so you can use them precisely.

j.p. lundstrom wrote:

In other words, fancy word choice does not equal a good story.

My exact argument.

j.p. lundstrom wrote:

Just read Mark Twain.

Twain is a great example: an author with a distinct style. He knows how to use words with precision. He delivers the whole flavor of an era, region, and class through his words. You read on because you believe in the world he crafts for you. You can hear it. Certainly you care about the plot as well, but can you imagine Twain stripped to a functionally invisible lexicon? What a loss that would be.

I think style is especially important for literary fiction. For genre fiction, you want the style to pretty much stand in the background, I think? Bring the plot, characters, and tension to the front, and let the stakes pull the reader? I see advice all over to hide the writing in genre fiction. If you don't know how to do that, you can keep the reader from moving to the next paragraph by standing too much in the way.

It sounds like you're saying, "Sure, we know about the importance of word choice, but that isn't the driver that gets the reader to the next paragraph." I'm not sure I agree, but I lack the experience at this point to say why. I would say that the wrong word can STOP a reader, point her far off track, and turn a simple scene into an exhausting, vertiginous experience. And what defines a wrong word depends on the story, its genre, and the style and voice the author has established.

I took Tolstoy's perfectly sensible scene and muddied it up with distracting words and punctuation. My point is that nothing changed in his scene, except the delivery. I would never read Choice #2 in my sample, however great the stakes.

Re: Moving a Story Forward

Sherry V. Ostroff wrote:

You can do this by using words that raise the stakes: paused, cautious, abruptly, urgently, threatened, froze, waited, defended, hid, fled.  If I write, "Jane ran down the street." Ho-hum - Yawn. But if I write "Jane fled down the street." now you're wondering why, who's after her, did she rob a bank, etc.

Great points here, Sherry, about how word choice can raise questions. I guess I'd caution you to not rely so much on the effect of a word ("abruptly"), that you fall into the habit of substituting a descriptive word rather than playing out a live scene and demonstrating the word. This is the same point I tried to make above about typing "paused" rather than creating a pause. I may be way off, however. Just adding a perspective. I realize the brevity of a single, perfect word might be just right for a scene.

35

Re: Moving a Story Forward

The right word is economical.  It delivers great value to the reader with minimum interpretive effort, and no distraction from a need to assemble a picture from multiple words.

Re: Moving a Story Forward

njc wrote:

The right word is economical.  It delivers great value to the reader with minimum interpretive effort, and no distraction from a need to assemble a picture from multiple words.

"That's right," he economical.
Take care. Vern

Re: Moving a Story Forward

lolololol  jp

38 (edited by dagnee 2017-09-20 00:26:26)

Re: Moving a Story Forward

njc wrote:

The right word is economical.  It delivers great value to the reader with minimum interpretive effort, and no distraction from a need to assemble a picture from multiple words.

Ian McEwan, author of Atonement, is an example of an economical writer. And a good one at that. I love his books.
smile

Re: Moving a Story Forward

Adam Smith was a good economical writer -- The Wealth of Nations, etc. Take care. Vern

40 (edited by corra 2017-09-25 20:20:03)

Re: Moving a Story Forward

Well, I'm still thinking on this topic, even if it has quietly fainted.

The initial question was how to get the reader from paragraph to paragraph. The answer above seems to be "story stakes & conflict." I said it. We all said it. While falling over ourselves to remark on Sherry's use of the word "paused" and why it didn't work in our collected view.

Sherry V. Ostroff wrote:

... what does the writer do to more a story forward?...  I mean the little things to get a reader to move from one paragraph to the next and to turn a page.  Is it a certain word you add that creates questions (or bubbles of tension)  that the reader wants answered?

j p lundstrom wrote:

I think you will find most successful authors claim the conflict and the stakes are the heart of a story.

j p lundstrom wrote:

That being said, there is no one who says that word choice is unimportant.

But there is someone who says it is important. As in, the most important thing. (ME!) Word choice doesn't stand behind stakes and conflict in a novel. Word choice is the only way we can create stakes and conflict. It is our one tool as writers. The rest is the product of how we choose to use words.

I find the catch-all mantra "the heart of the story is stakes & conflict" a flat bit of writing advice that could easily be poorly executed, now that I'm thinking about it. That's like saying what makes a good nation is "good people." What does that mean? I'm thinking it is a tad more involved than that. "Stakes and conflict" don't appear out of thin air. They have to be crafted.

Now WHAT might we use to craft stakes & conflict (and tension)? Cotton balls? Bits of tissue paper? Hm... I know! WORDS. smile

Words are the fundamental element of story-telling. If I was going to make a story recipe, I would toss three things in my bowl:  pages, ink, and words. From that I might bake some conflict.

Films rely on stakes and conflict, yes? Which are translated to the viewer through excellent camera shots, a good soundtrack, the right actors, tricks with color (Schindler's List), close-ups contrasted against wide panoramic scenes punctuated by the film's main soundtrack. It's in those juxtapositions & artistic decisions that the tale is delivered -- the tension is amplified by such choices.

Well, what I'm saying above is, we have to do everything a film accomplishes (and more!) -- the visuals, the camera angles, the details, the acting, the close-ups, the speaker's volume -- through the words we choose, the punctuation we apply,  and the way we choose to focus the reader's attention with both. We don't get to create tension with music. We create music with the single and solitary tool we have: written language.

We get readers to the next paragraph by using words WELL. And sure, part of what we want words to do is to convey a sense of tension (or time passing, or any of the varied human emotions that can universalize the reading experience.) I agree on that. Without a good story, we have lots of words that potentially say nothing at all pretty well. But the question is "how do we get readers to the next paragraph?" Finesse with words. Knowing the craft.

Two authors writing the same story with the same stakes will write two completely different novels. That's the voice. That's the art.

Charles Frazier. Ian McEwan. George Saunders (please read Lincoln on the Bardo and tell me that man doesn't have a distinct style). J.R.R. Tolkien. Colson Whitehead.  Jodi Picoult. Jane Austen. Alison Weir. Edith Wharton. Ernest Hemingway.

J.P.
Sherry.
Vern.
Corra.

Different voices. Why? Because we took those tools and used them differently. One would hope.

J.P., you say most successful writers would say conflict and stakes are at the heart of the story, but would these same writers say anyone could have written their novels -- or would they protest that their indelible fingerprint is on the pages? Why? What is their fingerprint? Is it the stakes?

Do we read to the next paragraph because we must know the answer to the scene's dramatic question -- or because we trust the author to write the answer to that question in a satisfying way? It isn't the question that gets us, really. It's the belief that by plowing through this paragraph, and this one, and this one, we will be delighted on our way to an answer we trust will inevitably please us, or convince us, or surprise us, or move us. Are we going to trust an author to take us there if the author fumbles through words, focuses everywhere but where it matters, relies on gimmicky alliteration and a large, fumbling vocabulary to convey mood, and writes in generalizations? Are we willing to go to the next paragraph if the one that preceded it proves the author's worth, even if and especially if the author uses sprawling sentences in the middle of a tense scene?

I won't demure with a "but what do I know?" because I do know. smile What gets me to the next paragraph is a belief that the author is in complete control. After that, depending on the genre, absolutely, stakes and tension keep me going. But the heart of it is the author's ability to control her craft. I don't believe the stakes if I don't believe the author. The tension isn't effective if it reaches me through a gasp. I have to believe it's real. I have to trust the authenticity of whatever the author is saying, even if that author is telling me there is such a thing as a little tiny half-person with big feet named a hobbit. I have to so trust the author's voice I don't question this. That happens through words. That is the heart. And if we as writers don't know this fundamental truth about writing, we need to spend a lot more time closely reading. 

I don't think you can separate a novel's words from its stakes and conflict and say one is "not something anyone has said is unimportant" and the other is "the heart of story-telling." The words give birth to everything else. 

Pardon me. I shall be off now to dust the hedges and think fancily about the word grumbit.

Re: Moving a Story Forward

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0us2UbWFTCI

Take care. Vern