1 Topic by rhiannon (edited by rhiannon 2017-06-25 21:32:04)

Topic: Breaking the 4th Wall

Kdot mentioned that I had broken the 4th wall, suggesting I either do it more often or not do it at all.  I had never heard that expression before but figured out from context what it meant.  There are three walls in a typical theater and an imaginary one between the world of the characters and the world of the audience. Sometimes, they characters break the 4th wall and directly address the audience.  Although attributed to Mell Brooks, it dates back to Chaplain, and I have heard that Bob Hope and Bing Crosby originated it in their Road series.  (In one, they are traveling in the desert at the intro of a movie, and see something that could be a mirage up ahead.  It's the logo of the movie studio.) I recall an episode of Hunter, where it's hinted that he and McCall might have an affair.  He looks at the audience and says, 'It could happen."  I don't think I do it, as Rhiannon is writing a memoir in her world and her audience is there with her, only reading about it, perhaps as history (If Ann Frank were an imaginary character, would her diary break the 4th wall?)  It seems a reasonable thing to do when writing in 1st person narrative, but then, in fantasy, readers want to be immersed in the world and not reminded that their world is very, very different.  So I felt a discussion coming on:  Have you ever broken the 4th wall?  And why?  Do you think it's a good thing or a bad thing?

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Re: Breaking the 4th Wall

Well, I know that in A Midsummer's Night's Dream, Puck addresses the audience. In Peter Pan, Peter asks the audience to save Tinkerbell. In fiction doesn't the novel written in first person stay entirely on the other side of the fourth wall? I know when I read Sue Grafton's alphabetical murder series, Kinsey Millhone speaks to the reader at the end of her novels. I can't think of any examples, offhand, that I have read where it's written in third person and the author just stops and says something to the reader.

As for whether it's a good idea or not, I think it's up to the writer.

smile

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Re: Breaking the 4th Wall

A first-person narrative is a missive to the reader so the fourth wall is already brokren.  The question then is breaking the narrative.  When the narrator tells us what he does or doesn't like, he's doing that.

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Re: Breaking the 4th Wall

njc wrote:

A first-person narrative is a missive to the reader so the fourth wall is already brokren.  The question then is breaking the narrative.  When the narrator tells us what he does or doesn't like, he's doing that.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, NJC. Not having any formal training in writing, I didn't know what breaking the fourth wall meant until I read Rhiannon's post about it. That's why I like this site. You learn so much here from the other writers.
smile

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Re: Breaking the 4th Wall

njc wrote:

A first-person narrative is a missive to the reader so the fourth wall is already broken.  The question then is breaking the narrative.  When the narrator tells us what he does or doesn't like, he's doing that.

I disagree. You break the fourth wall when you address the reader directly. Until Twilight came along, the difference between first and third is that first puts the reader in the passenger seat of the car of the adventure you're telling, while third puts them in the driver's seat. Twilight and Hunger Games made third and first the same, the reader is the driver seat.

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Re: Breaking the 4th Wall

So when a narrator tells the reader "I've hated spinach ever since my mother tried to feed me her creamed variety," is the fourth wall broken or not?

When Kate Paulk's first-person narrator tells us "Yes, I'm a vampire.  Deal with it," is the fourth wall broken?

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Re: Breaking the 4th Wall

njc wrote:

So when a narrator tells the reader "I've hated spinach ever since my mother tried to feed me her creamed variety," is the fourth wall broken or not?

When Kate Paulk's first-person narrator tells us "Yes, I'm a vampire.  Deal with it," is the fourth wall broken?

I think "not necessarily" for the first example. The character is just telling us a story.
Yes, for the second example. The character is addressing the reader to "deal with it".

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Re: Breaking the 4th Wall

Some would say speaking to the audience - in an aside way, not just a self-descriptor, a la, "I hate spinach," by the first-person narrator - is wrong. But a few well-known writers, Harlan Coben among them, do this frequently. It's like they're bringing the reader into the club, as it were, to participate with the character, rather than being a passive observer. Personally, I try to avoid this, though sometimes I let an aside slip in. smile

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Re: Breaking the 4th Wall

I think Rex Stout had Archie Goodwin make an occasional remark of that sort.  That's good enough for me.

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Re: Breaking the 4th Wall

If you want to see a grating example, read the Lemony Snicket series. I get that it's children's lit, but I got so tired of EXPLANATIONS, which is speaking to the reader in excess.

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Re: Breaking the 4th Wall

Tolkien also broke the 4th wall in The Hobbit, even though  it is known he later regretted doing so and writing the book as if it were for children.

Kiss,

Gacela

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12 Reply by Janet Taylor-Perry (edited by Janet Taylor-Perry 2017-06-27 00:29:41)

Re: Breaking the 4th Wall

Mariana Reuter wrote:

Tolkien also broke the 4th wall in The Hobbit, even though  it is known he later regretted doing so and writing the book as if it were for children.

Kiss,

Gacela

No normal kid today could read The Hobbit. It's definitely not written on a child's level.

Edit--No normal American kid. As a former teacher, I think I might have met half a dozen "kids" under age 12 that could comprehend the writing style of Tolkien.

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13 Reply by Mariana Reuter (edited by Mariana Reuter 2017-06-27 00:58:36)

Re: Breaking the 4th Wall

But it's true. Tolkien first envisioned his story for children. Check the way The Hobbit's first chapters are written and how he addresses the audience. Whether it's for children or whether children can easily understand it, it's another story.

Kiss,

Gacela

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