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vern wrote:

Ahh, but you haven't lived long enough to have experienced a valid sample size. I, on the other hand, have seen both the "contenders" and can say with complete unvarnished truth that "Tombstone" wouldn't even have been imagined without the previous fame of "Shane", yeah, not even a trailer, lol. Take care. Vern

I don't consider this a valid argument. I could be ten years old and still have seen as many westerns as you have. They're right out there for the watching. It's not like they disappeared into the ether as soon as they were filmed. Second, you offer no proof that Tombstone wouldn't have been imagined without Shane beyond the fact that you have seen both and can therefore speak as an expert. Meanwhile, if you open up your history book and look up Tombstone you'll find an entry on the topic predating Shane by a good seventy years. You may put that in your pipe, sir, and smoke it. smile

http://i.imgur.com/RZ3Z8a7.gif

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Hmm, no proof? PLEASE read the below article on the subject. But, I do give you credit for your youthful enthusiasm as Tombstone is listed way down there in the top ten if you read all the way through. Oh, and just as another counterpoint, if you watched westerns all day every day of your life and someone a bit older did the same, I think it obvious who would smoke the field. He walks into the sunset. Take care. Vern


     
     SCOTTSDALE, Ariz., June 13 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- SHANE, director
George Stevens' classic 1953 movie about a weary gunfighter caught up in a
land war between Wyoming ranchers and farmers, is the greatest Western
movie of all time, Western Writers of America has announced.

     For top honors SHANE, which Pulitzer Prize-winning Western novelist
A.B. Guthrie Jr. adapted for the screen from Jack Schaefer's novel, edged
HIGH NOON, the 1952 movie that won Gary Cooper his second Academy Award as
Best Actor.

     Western Writers of America, a nonprofit organization of more than 600
professional writers, founded in the 1950s to promote and honor the best
literature about the American West -- including screenwriting -- announced
the 100 Greatest Western Movies of All Time on Thursday, June 12, at
Scottsdale's Chaparral Suites during the association's annual convention.

     "This year has been incredible," WWA Executive Director Paul Hutton
said. "Cormac McCarthy's brutal little contemporary Western NO COUNTRY FOR
OLD MEN did great at the box office, taking in over $60 million and was
nominated for a Best Picture Oscar. Directors Joel and Ethan Coen got
nominations, too. Paul Thomas Anderson also was nominated for THERE WILL BE
BLOOD, his amazing adaptation of Upton Sinclair's 1927 novel Oil, with his
lead actor Daniel Day-Lewis winning the Oscar."

     Members voted on their top 10 Western movies, and the ballots were
tabulated at the WWA offices at the University of New Mexico.

     No. 3 was THE SEARCHERS, director John Ford's powerful 1956 story about
a vengeful Texan's quest to find his two nieces, taken by Comanche Indians,
based on Alan LeMay's novel. No. 4 was BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID,
the 1969 movie that first teamed Paul Newman and Robert Redford. Kevin
Costner's Academy Award-winning DANCES WITH WOLVES (1990), from Michael
Blake's novel, rounded out the top five.

     Rounding out the top 10 were director Sam Peckinpah's bloody,
end-of-the-West opera THE WILD BUNCH (1969); Howard Hawk's first Western,
RED RIVER (1948), which gave John Wayne one of his best roles; the surprise
cult O.K. Corral favorite TOMBSTONE (1993), starring Kurt Russell and Val
Kilmer; THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN (1960), a Western retelling of Japanese
director Akira Kurosawa's brilliant SEVEN SAMURAI, and OPEN RANGE (2003),
which starred Robert Duvall in another Costner-directed movie.

     "It's not the Top 10 I would come up with," says incoming WWA president
Johnny D. Boggs, "but that's the fun of lists like these. It prompts lively
debate, and members of Western Writers of America can be as passionate
about Western film as they are about literature of the West."

     WWA's membership roster is filled with writers who are no stranger to
Hollywood, including screenwriters Kirk Ellis, Steve Harrigan, C. Courtney
Joyner, Andrew J. Fenady, Stephen Lodge, and Miles Hood Swarthout, whose
father, the late Glendon Swarthout, wrote the novel THE SHOOTIST, which
became John Wayne's last movie. Bill Gulick (BEND OF THE RIVER, THE
HALLELUJAH TRAIL) and Max Evans (THE ROUNDERS, THE HI-LO COUNTRY) saw two
of their novels adapted for the screen. Hutton, Boggs and fellow members
Michael F. Blake, Win Blevins, Brian Garfield, and Arthur Winfield Knight
have written extensively about Western film.

     In 2009, WWA plans to announce the 100 Greatest Western Television
Movies, Series and Miniseries of All Time during the convention in Oklahoma
City.

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Dill Carver wrote:
vern wrote:

You're too young to remember the best western of all time...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhGkcOoTlkQ

LOL, yep, that would be up there somewhere in the OK Coral in the sky. Take care. Vern

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vern wrote:

He walks into the sunset.

Well said! lol

I'm not convinced by your argument. The fact that a bunch of people who write westerns voted for their top ten favorites is still just opinion. They haven't said why they claim Shane as a favorite in this article -- only (it seems) that they personally prefer it, which is still ultimately an opinion. If what you mean to argue is that Shane is your favorite, that's a valid argument and we shake hands. Telling me that it is the best is negotiable and you haven't yet convinced me... or, it seems, the president of the group of writers you cite.

My mother used to watch westerns all the time with her brother and dad. The old kind, like Shane. She's seen A TON of them. She says Shane is good and I should watch it, and Tombstone is also good, but the greatest Western of all time is How the West Was Won. She then reminded me that I exist because of her. I find that to be an impenetrable argument.

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corra wrote:
vern wrote:

He walks into the sunset.

Well said! lol

I'm not convinced by your argument. The fact that a bunch of people who write westerns voted for their top ten favorites is still just opinion. They haven't said why they claim Shane as a favorite in this article -- only (it seems) that they personally prefer it, which is still ultimately an opinion. If what you mean to argue is that Shane is your favorite, that's a valid argument and we shake hands. Telling me that it is the best is negotiable and you haven't yet convinced me... or, it seems, the president of the group of writers you cite.

My mother used to watch westerns all the time with her brother and dad. The old kind, like Shane. She's seen A TON of them. She says Shane is good and I should watch it, and Tombstone is also good, but the greatest Western of all time is How the West Was Won. She then reminded me that I exist because of her. I find that to be an impenetrable argument.

Well, yeah, of course it's opinion - that's a given like everything about art -- and you can't argue with your mother, so let me know what you think of Shane after you watch it. BTW, as challenged, I did offer substantial subjective proof outside myself or yourself; just saying, lol. Take care. Vern

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I will definitely tell you what I think of Shane. I'll actually probably like it. Ma described it to me and says it's good. I find the trailer I watched nauseating and awful. She says the trailer is not a good reflection of the movie. She's going to watch it with me one of these days when I have the time.

I was mostly messing with you, Vern. My point wasn't that you should cite other people who say it's the best. Unless they can tell me why they hold that opinion (by assessing the work itself), I don't care what they say. 

I didn't ask for "substantial proof outside" you and me? At least I don't think I did? The only time I mentioned proof was when I suggested that you offered no proof that Shane couldn't have been imagined without Tombstone. My proof was the fact that Tombstone actually happened LONG before Shane was a glint in somebody's eye, so I wanted to know more on that point: why do you say Tombstone wouldn't have existed without Shane, as in, what was your proof? From the actual film. In your own words. As in, why do you make that claim? I certainly didn't mean by that that you should quote someone beyond yourself. That's not proof. I could easily find a source to back up my own opinion and it would be meaningless without actual analysis of the film. I want to know what you think, and why, based upon your own expertise and an analysis of Shane alongside Tombstone. As in, why is one superior? Why do you say that Shane made Tombstone possible? A proper answer might have convinced me.

But I didn't expect you to actually do it. No one has time for that! I certainly don't, and intend not to bother with it myself. Ha! Tombstone isn't even really my favorite. I just pulled that one out to annoy you by disagreeing. I think it's good, but Buffalo Girls with Melanie Griffith and Angelica Houston is my actual favorite. I wouldn't say it's the best. I haven't watched everything western and can't make such an all-encompassing argument.

I think you can debate art and develop something more substantial than flat opinion. Yes, ultimately, it's opinion, but you can back yourself up with a sound argument and take your position beyond opinion to whatever it is that art inspires -- intelligent discussion, sound analysis. Sound analysis is not quoting other people or relying upon your age as proof that you are right. That's a flippy argument, sir, and I will never buy that. Nor would anyone sensible. Which is why I began poking at you. I was thinking, "Re-he-he-he-heally, then"? when you started defending your position by minimizing mine. Not a good plan if you want to win. I probably would have been convinced by a sound defense of the film itself. I've never seen it, so you could have only told me the good parts and I'd have bowed to your greatness. Too late now! lol

(I am still teasing you. Grin on my face, and such. Not easy to see online, so I thought I should say so! My uncle and I do this all the time at the dining room table. He often hauls out the "I am older and know more" empty argument as proof of things, to his detriment.)

Buffalo

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Re: Say the first word that comes to mind...

corra wrote:

(I am still teasing you. Grin on my face, and such. Not easy to see online, so I thought I should say so! My uncle and I do this all the time at the dining room table. He often hauls out the "I am older and know more" empty argument as proof of things, to his detriment.)

There was no doubt in my mind it was all in jest and would hope that my perhaps less artful tongue-in-cheek grin also was evident. And with that I respond to your Buffalo below. Take care. Vern

NICKEL

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Yes, saw the smile. smile THE SMILE OF ME WINNING THE ARGUMENT. lol

wheat (penny)

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pancakes

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Pancreas

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Penguin

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suspense

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novel

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belly button

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Omphalos

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snow halos

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s'no angel

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devil in disguise

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Devil in disguise

Re: Say the first word that comes to mind...

Dill Carver wrote:

Devil in der skies

1,221 (edited by njc 2017-04-28 21:01:07)

Re: Say the first word that comes to mind...

Der gabelschwanz Tuefel
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Lockheed_P-38J_Lightning_-_1.jpg/300px-Lockheed_P-38J_Lightning_-_1.jpg

Re: Say the first word that comes to mind...

The Horten Ho 229

The Horten Ho

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Any ol' ho

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Andy Warhol

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Raggedy Andy