Topic: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

It drives me crazy! It's the use of past perfect in place of simple past tense. I first noticed this trend years ago when I taught in the inner city, where I guess people hadn't been taught properly, or they were trying to demonstrate a greater command of language than they possessed. It's so widespread now, it's everywhere--and it's still wrong!  http://www.ecenglish.com/learnenglish/l … st-perfect

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

I had baked beans for dinner.  smile

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

I got them all right except #6. But we did drink it before we realized... They both [had looked] (look) right to me!

4 (edited by Norm d'Plume 2016-11-03 03:19:26)

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

JP, are you saying that people are using past pefect when they should be using simple past? I seem to be the exact opposite. I prefer simple past for a few of the questions where past perfect is the "correct" tense. Language evolves, and I write the way I speak, which is pretty gooder.

Did anyone notice the missing comma before the coordinating conjunction in question 3? tongue

Don't mess with me.
Dirk

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

I had all of them correct except number 3. It might have been because of the missing comma, it confused me.  wink

Kiss,

Gacela

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

I would have got all them not wrong if I wrote it after now. Took care. Vern

7 (edited by j p lundstrom 2016-11-03 12:23:16)

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

Norm d'Plume wrote:

JP, are you saying that people are using past pefect when they should be using simple past? I seem to be the exact opposite. I prefer simple past for a few of the questions where past perfect is the "correct" tense. Language evolves, and I write the way I speak, which is pretty gooder.

Did anyone notice the missing comma before the coordinating conjunction in question 3? tongue

Don't mess with me.
Dirk

Yes, I'm saying that people are using past perfect in place of simple past. For example: My mother had gone to the store instead of my mother went to the store.
In my opinion, it's safer to use the simple past. We should remember to KISS, not over-complicate.
(I hate to admit it, but I got two wrong, myself. I have a tendency to answer questions too quickly. In my defense, I don't understand number 10 at all. It didn't make a bit of sense to me. I guess whoever wrote the test didn't use a proofreader.)

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

The use is required when you are writing in past tense and then talk about something that happened in the past. That calls for past perfect to separate the two times. I find that it is best to avoid it through a little writing trick: Have the character talk about the event in dialogue. Then you can use simple past tense and still have a clear separation of time. There are always ways to eliminate a problem without violating the rules of writing. That is why they call our tools a bag of tricks.

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

njc wrote:

I had baked beans for dinner.  smile

I had baked beans for dinner, but Father brought home pizza instead.

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

I had made baked beans for dinner, so I had baked beans for dinner.

11 (edited by Charles_F_Bell 2016-11-04 09:27:05)

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

j p lundstrom wrote:
Norm d'Plume wrote:

JP, are you saying that people are using past pefect when they should be using simple past? I seem to be the exact opposite. I prefer simple past for a few of the questions where past perfect is the "correct" tense. Language evolves, and I write the way I speak, which is pretty gooder.

Did anyone notice the missing comma before the coordinating conjunction in question 3? tongue

Don't mess with me.
Dirk

Yes, I'm saying that people are using past perfect in place of simple past. For example: My mother had gone to the store instead of my mother went to the store.
In my opinion, it's safer to use the simple past. We should remember to KISS, not over-complicate.
(I hate to admit it, but I got two wrong, myself. I have a tendency to answer questions too quickly. In my defense, I don't understand number 10 at all. It didn't make a bit of sense to me. I guess whoever wrote the test didn't use a proofreader.)

10 is an attempt at humor.  When people speak they don't always include all of their thoughts. Thinking: "I snuck into the house after my mother had gone to store," but in answer to the question: "Did your mother go to the store?" the respondent might say: "My mother had gone to the store" while still thinking, but not offering the information: "before I snuck into the house."  Something like that. Apparent bad grammar like verb mismatch in speaking is sometimes incompletely expressed thoughts.  On the other hand, the correct form of so-called irregular verbs does not always come to mind while speaking.  I was stuck the other day trying to come up with the past tense of forgo while thinking it could not possibly be forwent so I said "had forgone" because it did not sound as ridiculous only to realize the person to whom I was speaking did not even know what forgo, forwent, forgone means. So many people think what a wonderful thing that language evolves not understanding that it is because too many people are ignorant or at least softly unknowledgable of what the language is.

12 (edited by Norm d'Plume 2016-11-04 02:46:59)

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

So many people think what a wonderful thing that language evolves not understanding that it is because too many people are ignorant or at least softly unknowledgable of what the language is.

I had had baked beans for dinner, but I forewent foregoing dessert since my diet had ended.

According to this article http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2014/ … forgo.html
forgo, forgone, and forwent are not the same as forego, foregone, and forewent, but have evolved to the point where they are used synonymously.

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

Norm d'Plume wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

So many people think what a wonderful thing that language evolves not understanding that it is because too many people are ignorant or at least softly unknowledgable of what the language is.

I had had baked beans for dinner, but I forewent foregoing dessert since my diet had ended.

According to this article http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2014/ … forgo.html
forgo, forgone, and forwent are not the same as forego, foregone, and forewent, but have evolved to the point where they are used synonymously.

It is primarily a spelling issue between the two words which is not helped by Webster's jumbling all the spellings and meanings into one entry. Forgo and forego are two different words with two different spellings and two different meanings. I have never used, or heard or seen used forego except in the expression foregone conclusion. I was thinking he went without a week's vacation "to forgo a week's vacation" in the past tense: "he forgoed that vacation" --no-- "he forwent that vacation" --huh?-- so I said "he had forgone that vacation", but also in that context I cannot have meant "to forego" = "to go before" but the best I could hope was the person listening might understand  he had forgotten to take his vacation and have the same effect without conveying the same meaning, and it worked. However, when I corrected myself, mostly speaking to myself, "he forwent..." I got nothing but a blank stare from a college grad.

He forwent foregoing the vacation schedule means he went without going ahead of the vacation schedule which put him forgoing his vacation until he was suppose to take his vacation on schedule. At least, with the two different spellings for two words that have different meanings, it is possible to derive correct meaning from the written form, but in speaking, it sounds like a double negative "to forgo forgoing" - to keep to the schedule which is still what I mean!

14

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

We got a lot of smilage out of dem beans.

15 (edited by j p lundstrom 2016-11-04 18:13:20)

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

According to this article http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2014/ … forgo.html
forgo, forgone, and forwent are not the same as forego, foregone, and forewent, but have evolved to the point where they are used synonymously.
!


I did have occasion to use this knowledge once in a review. I suppose I overdid it, since it appears to be acceptable to use the two interchangeably. I enjoyed reading the article, until I go to the ending and read the quote.

Hector: I am unarm’d; forgoe this vantage, Greek.
Achilles: Strike, fellows, strike; this is the man I seek.

Damn! I hate that Achilles. I always rooted for Hector. He was the one who was wronged. Stupid, impulsive, arrogant brother, and stupid, hot-headed, vengeful opponent. He didn't have a chance.

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

j p lundstrom wrote:
Norm d'Plume wrote:

According to this article http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2014/ … forgo.html
forgo, forgone, and forwent are not the same as forego, foregone, and forewent, but have evolved to the point where they are used synonymously.
!


I did have occasion to use this knowledge once in a review. I suppose I overdid it, since it appears to be acceptable to use the two interchangeably. I enjoyed reading the article, until I go to the ending and read the quote.

Hector: I am unarm’d; forgoe this vantage, Greek.
Achilles: Strike, fellows, strike; this is the man I seek.

Damn! I hate that Achilles. I always rooted for Hector. He was the one who was wronged. Stupid, impulsive, arrogant brother, and stupid, hot-headed, vengeful opponent. He didn't have a chance.

The article is a good example of a screwy ass-backwards argument in which its own facts do not substantiate its conclusion. The historical facts do not mean it is acceptable to use the two words interchangeably at all. You cannot argue that homonyms  which have different meanings and spellings are "interchangeable."  Consider too and two.

And Homer would consider you a fuddy-duddy in love with a long-dead civilization rather than accepting the up-coming new one. When you vote, you should thank Achilles, not Hector.

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

And Homer would consider you a fuddy-duddy in love with a long-dead civilization rather than accepting the up-coming new one. When you vote, you should thank Achilles, not Hector.

Oh, fun! Are we channeling Homer now? I'll play:

Homer would be far more concerned with your inability to communicate imaginatively than in criticizing someone's interest in the civilization from which he wrote. Your use of "screwy ass backwards" is uninspired and would bore a poet of his merit. Yesterday he and I discussed the fragmentation of language, and he actually used the phrase "screwy ass backwards" within a lesson, explaining to me, "This is the sort of limp, unremarkable stock phraseology which is replacing real poetry. Look for empty phrases like this one when you critique an argument: they are evidence of an empty pen well." Of course, he said this to me in ancient Greek, and rhymed it, and the story involved an ancient rivalry with someone's brother which transformed all of western history, but the lesson was located within the ancient frame and is still, to my way of thinking, quite relevant.

He doesn't realize he's from the past, though. If he read about World War One he'd wonder how such an event could POSSIBLY illuminate his poetry. And certainly the goings-on in the States today would have no bearing on his epic. I wouldn't dare suggest this to him, though. Every great poet likes to think that his work is only relevant in its own era. And the wisest thinkers omit all past affairs from their assessment of current events.

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

corra wrote:

And Homer would consider you a fuddy-duddy in love with a long-dead civilization rather than accepting the up-coming new one. When you vote, you should thank Achilles, not Hector.


He doesn't realize he's from the past, though. If he read about World War One he'd wonder how such an event could POSSIBLY illuminate his poetry. And certainly the goings-on in the States today would have no bearing on his epic. I wouldn't dare suggest this to him, though. Every great poet likes to think that his work is only relevant in its own era. And the wisest thinkers omit all past affairs from their assessment of current events.

Caroline Alexander in The War That Killed Achilles, for example, claims otherwise.

"Today, headlines from across the world keep Homer close by," she states in her note to reader. She ends her book with: "A hero will have no recompense for death, although he may win glory."  Hector lost his life in a stupid war defending an ignoble brother, vainglorious father, an insipid wife, and an ungrateful civic population. Achilles lost his life for love.

Life is more precious even than glory. Achilles never wavers in this judgement. It is not, after all, that he sacrifices for glory but for Patroklos.
Caroline Alexander, The War That Killed Achilles p. 224

19 (edited by Janet Taylor-Perry 2016-11-06 01:31:51)

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

j p lundstrom wrote:
Norm d'Plume wrote:

JP, are you saying that people are using past pefect when they should be using simple past? I seem to be the exact opposite. I prefer simple past for a few of the questions where past perfect is the "correct" tense. Language evolves, and I write the way I speak, which is pretty gooder.

Did anyone notice the missing comma before the coordinating conjunction in question 3? tongue

Don't mess with me.
Dirk

Yes, I'm saying that people are using past perfect in place of simple past. For example: My mother had gone to the store instead of my mother went to the store.
In my opinion, it's safer to use the simple past. We should remember to KISS, not over-complicate.
(I hate to admit it, but I got two wrong, myself. I have a tendency to answer questions too quickly. In my defense, I don't understand number 10 at all. It didn't make a bit of sense to me. I guess whoever wrote the test didn't use a proofreader.)

I made a 100! The English teacher should. Yeah, #10 was nuts. I'm sure the verb should have been studied. I hear people use the past perfect incorrectly ALL the time. Drives me nuts.

Re: The imperfect use of Past Perfect

j p lundstrom wrote:

It drives me crazy!

We ae of a like mind, Janet. What's that they say about great minds? lol  JP