Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

corra wrote:

I just love her writing. It's so poetic and vocal.

For me, this is pure gold. Hurston personifies the words that come from these people so that the words grow larger than the speakers: they become the slaves freed of their chains and charge forward as one entity in the harmony of violent and sudden freedom. My goodness, that is thematically powerful.

Language in which words have fixed meaning is indeed un-poetic, and thematic content based on words that have no fixed meaning is theme without meaning. There are black women who do believe the opposite of 'slavery' is not anarchy of subjectivism, and  they have more to say in un-poetry than any poet who says otherwise.

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Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

You are confused on the meaning of genre. It is a predictor of the story arc and to a lesser extent the sorts of characters and thematic content...

You say that I am confused.
I say that I disagree.
And, unfortunately I may not have the time to carry this discussion with you through.  But you deserve to know that I have not accepted your definitions and instruction.

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Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

Chesterton wrote that the essence of prose is that the words mean what they say, and the essence of poetry is that the words mean things they do not say.

Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

njc wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

You are confused on the meaning of genre. It is a predictor of the story arc and to a lesser extent the sorts of characters and thematic content...

You say that I am confused.
I say that I disagree.
And, unfortunately I may not have the time to carry this discussion with you through.  But you deserve to know that I have not accepted your definitions and instruction.

Strong-start opening paragraph ... or not?

Before he entered that intersection of X and Y, in a moment—so brief as to be unremarkable to the conscious mind— a flicker of light, a light so small but so intense, distracted him from the traffic light ahead that had turned green in his favor. He did not enter that intersection after the light turned green as was his right to do; and at that moment, so brief and insignificant to the driver of the semi that he should think the light having turned red against him before entering the intersection of X and Y of no consequence, did a semi-trailer truck and a car not collide.

Why I think it is objectively SS is that it (1) shows there will be strong thematic content to the book and (2) foreshadows the sort of characters and story and style (effectively genre-less construction ) which will follow. Clearly.

What a subjective judge may say: This is confusing sh**.

A subjective judge hanging on to some objective criterion may say: although does this does show (1) strong thematic content to the book (to those who have the intellectual capacity to discern) and (2) foreshadows the sort of characters and story which will follow, it is unsellable.

Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

njc wrote:

Chesterton wrote that the essence of prose is that the words mean what they say, and the essence of poetry is that the words mean things they do not say.

Fine to the extent that it leaves out the possibility of a growing culture of acceptance of the anti-concept (essentially that words are alleged to mean the opposite of what they mean) that outside of religion did not exist in Chesterton's time. .

Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Strong-start opening paragraph ... or not?

Or this one:

Who is John Galt?

Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

While I am interested in what constitutes a strong start beyond the obvious, this thread brings up something that I've always felt the SS contest needs: simple critique. I understand the lengthy critique is and should be reserved for the winner, but it would be enlightening for the judges to give a brief idea of what ultimately qualifies, or disqualifies an entry from consideration. Even if it is a simple checklist that could be distributed to the entrants privately after judging is complete. This kind of feedback would be invaluable to all, but even more so to the semifinalists who passed some sort of muster to make that list, but not enough to ultimately prevail.

I also think doing so would go a long way to addressing the original question posed by this thread. If writers could see some of the specific criteria used, it would make extrapolating the degrees of subjectivity an easy thing to figure out (similarly to the review process here on the site).

Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

Linda Lee wrote:

While I am interested in what constitutes a strong start beyond the obvious, this thread brings up something that I've always felt the SS contest needs: simple critique.

Or the very least a mission statement. All contests are like beauty contests to some degree or other where the winner shor do look mighty purdy.

Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Language in which words have fixed meaning is indeed un-poetic, and thematic content based on words that have no fixed meaning is theme without meaning. There are black women who do believe the opposite of 'slavery' is not anarchy of subjectivism, and  they have more to say in un-poetry than any poet who says otherwise.

"Why, look at the lines on this map! Lines on this map go places! And lines that are not on this map don't go to these places. Extremely tall men of Scandinavian heritage believe that the opposite of sitting is not standing, but they see more lines than any other people could say otherwise."

Charles, I'm hardly going to engage in a discussion with you about literature. You aren't equipped. You don't discuss to exchange ideas: you discuss to elevate your own view of yourself, and be the lord of a group of writers in progress whose intellect far surpasses your own. If you haven't even begun to understand humanity, how can you possibly expect to assess its literature?

To be quite frank, I find you to be an angry, bigoted individual grasping violently at literary "rules" without understanding an iota of what you read. Yes, there are sets of rules and laws that the self-conscious lay out to "prove" their tastes are measurable. These are useful to a point, but art touches the soul. How or why moves with one's perspective, which is why honest discussions about literature are so potentially rich.

You don't seem to be capable of an honest exchange of ideas. You are capable of stubborn pronouncements and foul remarks more appropriate to a stable than a circle of intelligent writers.

It's a real shame. I was on the edge of my seat to find out what unpoetic poetry without meaning means for theme. Or whatever in the world it is you've got down next on your "THESE ARE THE UNALTERABLE RULES OF LITERATURE" syllabus of tedious close-mindedness.

Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

I wanted to throw in my two cents here, because "What constitutes a strong start?" is such a critical question for aspiring writers in all genres. Charles -- I certainly agree that judging fiction is intrinsically subjective, but this doesn't necessarily mean there aren't some common traits that make some stories more compelling than others. I've picked up literary fiction or romance novels that I couldn't put down, and scanned through some YA, sci-fi or fantasy that didn't hold my interest past the first paragraph.  As for action, many of the best sci-fi or horror novels and movies have very little in the way of "cinematic" spectacle, and way too many big budget blockbusters are just plain boring because they bludgeon you with non-stop action and special effects without bothering to craft characters and stories to care about. If I had to break down what hooks me, I'd point to three things: 1. Craft, 2. Voice, and 3. Conflict. Here's what I mean:

1. Craft: this is akin to the "compulsory" exercise figure skaters perform before the "long program"; without skilled writing, even the most creative ideas will fall flat. If the writing is choked with grammatical errors, tense and POV shifts, purple prose or rambling asides, pretentious musings and other author intrusions, I won't make it past the first few paragraphs. On the other hand, beautiful, tightly constructed prose will hold my interest even when the subject material isn't something I'd usually be drawn to. There's no short cut to honing writing skills. There are no "naturals." It takes thousands of hours of writing and reading well into the night to become an amateur, and a lifetime to improve.

2. Voice: this is a huge draw for me. If I'm not drawn to the character(s), then I probably won't read past the first few pages. I plowed through Catcher in the Rye (cliché, I know, but there's a reason this "first YA" novel is so popular) because of Holden Caulfield's voice. He had me hooked from his first jaded "If you really want to know about it" comment. Same with Rick Yancey's "5th Wave." I didn't buy the book because it features aliens exterminating humans. I loved Cassie Sullivan's voice, from the first line when she says: "Aliens are stupid." Whether you write fantasy, sci-fi, romance or literary fiction, your story (or movie) will be easy to put down if you don't create compelling characters. This is especially critical for literary fiction, where most of the hook lies in the writer's craft and ability to create fascinating and realistic characters worth investing time in getting to know.  If you wouldn't want to hang out with someone in real life, why on earth would you spend hours reading about them?

3. Conflict. Without conflict, there's no story. This may sound obvious, but many aspiring authors seem to lose sight of this fact, or they just don't seem to care. You need to create characters that we love, then put them through hell. This hell may be emotional or through a complex and tumultuous relationship, or it may be a "Hunger Games/Battle Royale" type life-and-death struggle. Conflict needs to be present from the first page, preferably the first few paragraphs, and conflicts need to evolve and change, driving your characters' arcs. This holds as true for romance and literary fiction as it does for sci-fi and YA. In a page-turning romance, the protagonists must endure all sorts of emotional baggage, near-misses, false starts and obstacles before they earn their "happily-ever-after." In literary fiction, characters must grapple with a myriad of challenges (emotional, social, economic, sexual identity, physical disability, substance abuse, traumatic childhood, etc....).

So that's how I'd down what draws me in: writing craft, voice, conflict. I realize this may be a simplification, but these same principles apply for all genres (with the possible exception of Children's picture books and early Middle Grade). What do you think? Gray

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Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

Nice summary.

37 (edited by Charles_F_Bell 2016-09-22 00:26:05)

Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

graymartin wrote:

I wanted to throw in my two cents here, because "What constitutes a strong start?" is such a critical question for aspiring writers in all genres. Charles -- I certainly agree that judging fiction is intrinsically subjective, but this doesn't necessarily mean there aren't some common traits that make some stories more compelling than others.

[...]

So that's how I'd down what draws me in: writing craft, voice, conflict. I realize this may be a simplification, but these same principles apply for all genres (with the possible exception of Children's picture books and early Middle Grade). What do you think? Gray

Somewhere within this discussion you will find that I prefer objective criteria, not subjective taste-satisfaction. There is, however, in the brief contest description a wholly subjective mission statement to the effect: "stuff that makes a reader go on past the first three chapters."

You have identified three such criteria that could be objective but choose to go in a different direction. (1) "craft," as you describe, I think is a given, but suppose one asserts that the technique of italicizing internal dialog -- a technique that infests TNBW like a virulent zombie virus -- is not in the CMS?

(2) Voice, as you describe, not quite the way I describe it in a narrower way, in a novel written wholly omniscient third has only the "voice" of the author in narration, and a reader liking or disliking any character is something removed from that. Moreover, a reader liking or disliking a character (in omniscient third or anything other than limited 1st, perhaps) is to me an irrelevancy, but that is a different topic. On the other hand, suppose a novel is about a psychotic gender dysphoric -- let's call zim Caityn Jenner -- whose personality dysfunctions and antics is loathsome to many readers, ought a judge base his SS criterion on that? Or only if he has a disliking for the MC but the hypothetical reader does not, or vice-versa?

(3) Conflict - yes, I cannot disagree with that, but that is objective. "Without conflict, there's no story." Indeed, there are basics of every story arc that should be in SS - except those that involve the quest/climax/resolution - that should be introduced in the first three chapters or 10% of the book. These can be objectively identified.

I say that SS should include indications of impending conflict (the trigger, the reason for making a critical choice), scene-setting (stasis), and finally the "surprise" - and the reader is off in journey to the resolution through the rest of the book.

What I find failing in many TNBW novels is a timely (if any) presentation of the stasis for the ensuing story -- all the bits of information a reader can set his mind to the context of what is and will happen. In fact, there are those who ridicule  the notion as mere a "info dump." There is a right way and a wrong way to "info dump" a stasis, but it is always wrong to ignore the task in SS.

Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

corra wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Language in which words have fixed meaning is indeed un-poetic, and thematic content based on words that have no fixed meaning is theme without meaning. There are black women who do believe the opposite of 'slavery' is not anarchy of subjectivism, and  they have more to say in un-poetry than any poet who says otherwise.

"Why, look at the lines on this map! Lines on this map go places! And lines that are not on this map don't go to these places. Extremely tall men of Scandinavian heritage believe that the opposite of sitting is not standing, but they see more lines than any other people could say otherwise."

Okay. And...?

corra wrote:

Charles, I'm hardly going to engage in a discussion with you about literature.

Yes, dear.

A mean, mean MAN using yucky logic dispelled any veracity to anti-conceptual NEWSPEAK in an apology of a sort called 1984. Give it a try.

Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

Thanks for the response, Charles. This is a thought-provoking thread, so thanks for starting the discussion. Part of the challenge is that writers must compete with so many "instant gratification" stimuli and distractions today (internet, TV, social media, etc...) Commercial fiction is being driven into a more compressed format, where a reader expects to be grabbed by his or her collar and pulled in from the first paragraph. Scene setting, for instance, is often relegated to a few carefully chosen words, and backstory gets "trickled in" a few lines at a time to avoid disrupting the all-important "pace" and "flow." Whether or not you like these trends, they're pervasive, at least in the commercial fiction I've been reading.

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Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

That's not entirely new.  It continues from the terser, tighter style that came between the World Wars.  It will be interesting to see how much it can reverse in the 'long tail' created by ebooks and Print on Demand.  Take a look at some of the stuff by the Mad Genius Club authors.

41

Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

I say that SS should include indications of impending conflict (the trigger, the reason for making a critical choice), scene-setting (stasis), and finally the "surprise" - and the reader is off in journey to the resolution through the rest of the book.

What I find failing in many TNBW novels is a timely (if any) presentation of the stasis for the ensuing story -- all the bits of information a reader can set his mind to the context of what is and will happen. In fact, there are those who ridicule  the notion as mere a "info dump." There is a right way and a wrong way to "info dump" a stasis, but it is always wrong to ignore the task in SS.

In many of these 'starts' the reader is presented with the character and jeopardy first, sometimes in a setting that will be absurd if not quickly explained.  In the extreme cases, I find it unsettling and unsatisfying, almost like the book cover that says, "Buy this book or I will shoot this dog."

So I think I agree with this thesis in principle.  In practice, our language is expressed in a linear sequence of words, phrases, sentences, paragraphs, etc., and it is necessary to put one thing before the other.

Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

A mean, mean MAN using yucky logic dispelled any veracity to anti-conceptual NEWSPEAK in an apology of a sort called 1984. Give it a try.

I've not read Ayn Rand's work thoroughly yet, though I've had it strongly recommended to me by a person I respect who is able to suggest reading which offers a viewpoint that opposes my own without also calling me a man- hater. (She is also a feminist.) The excerpts I have read of Rand's work frankly repulse me. I agree so far with very little that she argues.

However, I just read her theory on the anti- conceptual and must thank you: now I see what your issue is. Friend, that concept fully describes you.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I consider men mean? You seem to fixate on this issue whenever you speak to me, which makes me wonder if, as with the anti- conceptual remark, you are projecting. I love men. As do many feminists. My issue is with pigs.

I also voiced no issue with logic, beyond suggesting that you seem to lack it. I spy another red herring. You seem fully unable to focus.

I will be bowing out of this conversation now, though I can only assume bait is forthcoming. As I said, I consider speaking to a person of your mentality a waste of my time.

Thanks for the book rec. It's been on my list.

Re: meaning for 'strongest start'?

corra wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

A mean, mean MAN using yucky logic dispelled any veracity to anti-conceptual NEWSPEAK in an apology of a sort called 1984. Give it a try.

I've not read Ayn Rand's work thoroughly yet,

Piaget. [and in the way he disputes Chomsky, for example, on the origin and purpose of words.]

corra wrote:

(She is also a feminist.

Rand: "I don't believe that any good woman would want to be President." 

That's 0 for 2, lil' lady.

http://orwell.ru/library/novels/1984/english/en_app

The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of Ingsoc {English Socialism}, but to make all other modes of thought impossible. It was intended that when Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought — that is, a thought diverging from the principles of Ingsoc — should be literally unthinkable, at least so far as thought is dependent on words.

Take for example the well-known passage from the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among men, deriving their powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of Government becomes destructive of those ends, it is the right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government...

It would have been quite impossible to render this into Newspeak while keeping to the sense of the original. The nearest one could come to doing so would be to swallow the whole passage up in the single word crimethink. A full translation could only be an ideological translation, whereby Jefferson's words would be changed into a panegyric on absolute government