701

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

Amy, I don't mind you using the name either way, though Slash and Tazar seem well provided for.  I'll be thinking on this for a while.

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

I read 'Caneth' to rhyme with Gareth which is a male name as any ...

Other than that, I have no idea what is going here. I opened the chapters you posted njc, and had no clue what the hell I was reading. I could be tired, so I'll try again over the weekend. Sorry about this, it will happen, just no tonight.

703

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

Well, they seem okay.  I was afraid for a moment that the libretto to Wozzek had gotten switched in ...

704 (edited by njc 2016-02-18 11:49:57)

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

Janet, the chapter with Glaselle comes soon after Harsan and Glaselle leave Merran and Jamen on the road, after Glaselle gets her Atlas.  I'm opening up a thread for that family.

The two kids are the kids that Shogran had.  He's trying to get to the shack where he left them, under the effect of Merran's pain spell and the Barricade.

705

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

Regarding 'Caneth'--I've gone for two-syllable names because I did not want to suggest that they came from large families.  That creates backstory issues.  But I can do it for one of them, using some variant on Carruthers, maybe Carrothin.

More thinking needed.

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

njc wrote:

On the subject of names, I let Merran and her parents fall out of the naming system.  I should fix it.

Any opinions on Carreth or Carth instead of Caneth.  (I need to get the 'r' in it, so that 'Merran' is derived from both her parent's names.)

I would go with Carreth. It gives off the air of a wise, intellectual, but still fatherly and grounded, (not a snooty type).

"Carth" doesn't seem to fit the father's personality. Too brash, unmannerly, or dirty. Sounds more like his trouble making younger brother. I can defiantly see Merran stuck traveling with her "Uncle Carth" and being annoyed with him, or having to get him out of trouble.

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

Oh, and by the way njc, I got 0.16 points for the review I just did! whoo-hoo! smile

708

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

Sorry.  Yes, the splice episode is short.  There are longer chapters awaiting you, if you want them.  Two books, no waiting.

709 (edited by njc 2016-02-20 01:37:05)

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

Fear not the repeater, I say!

Before the gods that made the gods
Had seen their sunrise pass,
The White Horse of the White Horse Vale
Was cut out of the grass.

Before the gods that made the gods
Had drunk their morning fill,
The White Horse of the White Horse Vale
Was hoary on the hill.
  :
  :
  :
For the end of the world was long ago
And all we dwell to-day
As children of some second birth,
Like a strange people left on earth
After a Judgement Day.

For the end of the world was long ago,
When the ends of the world waxed free,
When Rome was sunk in a waste of slaves,
And the sun drowned in the sea.

How many of our precious rules do those verses break?  And yet they are greater than anything that most of us here are likely to write--or at least, they are part of that greater work.

Am I entitled to use the tools of a master?  There's only one way to find out.

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

njc wrote:

Fear not the repeater, I say!

Before the gods that made the gods
Had seen their sunrise pass,
The White Horse of the White Horse Vale
Was cut out of the grass.

Before the gods that made the gods
Had drunk their morning fill,
The White Horse of the White Horse Vale
Was hoary on the hill.
  :
  :
  :
For the end of the world was long ago
And all we dwell to-day
As children of some second birth,
Like a strange people left on earth
After a Judgement Day.

For the end of the world was long ago,
When the ends of the world waxed free,
When Rome was sunk in a waste of slaves,
And the sun drowned in the sea.

How many of our precious rules do those verses break?  And yet they are greater than anything that most of us here are likely to write--or at least, they are part of that greater work.

Am I entitled to use the tools of a master?  There's only one way to find out.

I'm not in principle opposed to repetition or breaking any rules for that matter, but repeating 'after' ... I'm not so sure it works or is exactly the same thing - it doesn't 'flow'. But if I'm the only one with the problem, you know what to do! And even I'm not the only with a problem! smile

711 (edited by njc 2016-02-20 05:14:34)

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

What kind of flow are you writing of?  Rythm and cadence?  Linear action?  Remember, this is scene-setting, not action.  It's a prelude to action.

712

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

And I can't even quote right.  It's "Had drunk at dawn their fill".  My profound apologies to the master.

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

njc wrote:

What kind of flow are you writing of?  Rythm and cadence?  Linear action?  Remember, this is scene-setting, not action.  It's a prelude to action.

Just the 'I had to stop and re-read this bit to make sense of it or to see if there is any good reason for doing this' kind of flow. I've never seen or heard say it like this:

After dinner, after Harsel and Gelsa were put to bed, Glaselle sat down to explore her new Atlas.

It doesn't read 'smoothly' or feel complete or deliberate or that there is any good reason really to do that (to this reader at least).

Now, this is your writing and voice. But if it was my writing, I would've put it this way:

After dinner and putting Harsel and Gelsa to bed, Glaselle sat down to explore her new Atlas.

And I've removed some passive voice too ...

But it still is only a suggestion/a note. smile

714

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

But you're saying that Glaselle put them to bed.  I'm leaving that question open.

Harsel and Gelsa are not the topic of the paragraph.  They are scene-setting.  The passive's vice is a virtue here.

How is it incomplete?  Could it be that there are only two items in the notional series instead of three?

Now, if you you argued that Harsel and Gelsa usually stay up a while after dinner you'd have a point.

What if it was 'Late, after dinner and after Harsel and Gelsa had been put to bed, Glaselle sat down ...' ?  That exposes an imbalance in weight and grammar in the two 'after' constructions which (I think) is less an issue with the comma separation.

715

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

There is a lyrical aspect to your writing. I see what you are doing, but I agree with Janet. It reads awkwardly. The double 'after' is what throws me. The way I read this is as if the neutral narrator is speaking and there is a pause between the two 'after' references.

Either, "After dinner and bedtime for the children, Glasselle sat down to explore her new Atlas."

Or, "After dinner and the children were put to bed, Glasselle sat down to explore her new Atlas."

Ex: It is assumed that the children would eat dinner. It is assumed that they didn't eat in bed, so the dinner would be before bedtime. Therefore, you could thin and eliminate the 'After dinner' reference. ..."After Harsel and Gelsa were in bed, Glaselle sat down to explore her new Atlas."

716 (edited by njc 2016-02-20 10:58:59)

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

I'm curious why you should say that my writing has a lyrical aspect.  I'm curious how a lyrical aspect would make the writing awkward to read.

And why that pause, which I intend, is a prroblem.

717

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

Here is my best answer to your question. The lyrical sing-song nature of sentences like you used reminds me of a dialect. Ex, Middle English. However it is only in random occurrences, so I never get used to the meter. You target certain areas with this dialect/irregular speech pattern. But I don't fall into the pattern without effort.

So your text reads (to me) like Shakespeare done in a rap format. You have a staccato pace to your writing that reads like a drum beat.

I also recognize that this is intentional. As your friend and reviewer, I'm trying to learn from this...trying to figure out what you want to accomplish. So I can help you reach your goals. However, I often fall short. You and I write on very different planes of existence.

That said, I agree with K's assessment 100%. Don't tell him I said that. He is going to gloat. I hate that.

718 (edited by njc 2016-02-20 15:07:34)

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

K. wrote:

That said, in modern speaking, we tend to want the writer to avoid any repetition at all, even of function words.

eg (former)

Here is Sir Bob, Earl of London, Earl of Lancaster, Earl of Shire.

now-a-days should be:

Here is Sir Bob, Earl of London, Lancaster, and the Shire

Except that the two are not identical.  The short version suggests that all three places are represented in the same office, not the same officeholder.  At the least, the 'of' should be repeated.

Ah, but you ask why the awkward pause. The problem is that each "after" implies a time section, and English generally only allows one time-related prepositional phrase per clause, usually located at the end of the sentence.

Lyrical: Bob knew that at 3:30, his homework was due.
Normative: Bob knew his homework was due at 3:30

But that's not quite true.  "He could talk with Smith after lunch but before the meeting."  Or "Later that evening, after Harsel and Gelsa had been put to bed ..."

Add a second time phrase and you have pauses all over the place

Bob knew that at 3:30 his homework was due because at 3:35 his teacher would get mad.
Bob wanted to submit his essay to the library after the game after he had finished reviewing it

(add pauses)

Bob knew that at 3:30 [pause] his homework was due because at 3:35 [pause] his teacher would get mad.
Bob wanted to submit his essay to the library after the game [pause] after [pause] he had finished reviewing it [pause].

The modern writer wants to avoid a sentence with multiple chained pauses. I could write pages on why this is so, but that would be a 10-page essay in itself.

And why that pause, which I intend, is a prroblem.

I don't think they're calling it a problem... but rather identifying places in th prose where they find themselves lost in a tangle of clauses and pauses.

Hardly a tangle, just a sequence perhaps more common in poetry than prose.
But there is a purpose.  The first expresses a rough time of day.  The second expresses a delay to a special event in the daily life of the household.  This chapter occurs not too long after several that reflect that cycle.  Together they intensify the lateness.

The first alone is incomplete.  The second is abrupt.

And I have no problem with pauses.  I don't believe that all pauses are awkward.

((pause))

Some are seemly.

719

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

amy s wrote:

The lyrical sing-song nature of sentences like you used reminds me of a dialect. Ex, Middle English. However it is only in random occurrences, so I never get used to the meter. You target certain areas with this dialect/irregular speech pattern. But I don't fall into the pattern without effort.

I suppose I'm opening the scene a little like an oral storyteller would.  Just a little like that.  For a certain definition of 'little'--I often ask for extra spicy stuff in my food.

You and I write on very different planes of existence.

Not parallel planes, I must garner!

I was once told by my manager that my broad vocabulary was a problem for our ESL people.  I asked if he was accusing me of erudition.  He said, after a pause, that he was.

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

njc wrote:

I was once told by my manager that my broad vocabulary was a problem for our ESL people.  I asked if he was accusing me of erudition.  He said, after a pause, that he was.

I honestly hope to be accused of this one day.

-Elisheva

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

Just to clarify - my problem isn't so much the repetition of the word, but more your choice of word to repeat and the place where you're repeating it.

I know I've asked you plenty of times if you have deliberately chosen to repeat words - and you confirmed that you did it on purpose. Those times I went okay with me, because it 'worked' and had purpose in my opinion. This time, I'm not so sure there is purpose behind the repetition. So basically, I'm left wondering why the need to repeat it and why not simply using what Amy said: 

"After dinner and the children were put to bed, Glasselle sat down to explore her new Atlas."

Your version is giving a lot of importance to two events (it takes the focus away from Glasselle IMO which I thought was the focal point of the chapter as I've read/understood it). There's no apparent reason forthcoming in the chapter that I read why this is important to note that she only explored her atlas after dinner AND after H&G were put to bed. If it is important enough that you want your reader to pause/stop and ponder the purpose of this sentence/the repetition, I think it's important enough then to give them that reason in the same chapter. As it is, you leave me hanging and wondering (and not in a good way).

But this is me and what I'm reading and thinking as some readers would. And if that's okay with you, it's okay with me! smile

Another thing: Harsel and Gelsa draws a very strong parallel to Hansel and Gretel - just so that you know someone has picked up on it! smile

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

Elisheva Free wrote:
njc wrote:

I was once told by my manager that my broad vocabulary was a problem for our ESL people.  I asked if he was accusing me of erudition.  He said, after a pause, that he was.

I honestly hope to be accused of this one day.

-Elisheva

I have no hope in hell! LOL

723

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

Glaselle waits until all the stuff is done because she's a dutiful daughter and big sister, and does her chores and watches the kids, and only when that's done does she sit down with her own stuff.  I thought I'd painted the family pretty well.

724 (edited by njc 2016-02-20 23:25:10)

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

AJ Reid wrote:

So basically, I'm left wondering why the need to repeat it and why not simply using what Amy said: 

"After dinner and the children were put to bed, Glasselle sat down to explore her new Atlas."

Because it's grammatically unsound.  One object of that 'after' is a noun and the other is a clause.  You can't 'and' them unless dinner was put to bed, too.  ("Is it warmer in the summer or in the Catskills?"  Quote due, as far as I know, to Professor Milton Stecher.)

Another thing: Harsel and Gelsa draws a very strong parallel to Hansel and Gretel - just so that you know someone has picked up on it! smile

Yes.  I'm still considering name changes, even though I really like the pairing.  (And I learned a few days ago that my shorthand outline for 'Glaselle' doesn't follow all the rules.  I like it, but I'm probably going to change it, going to the downward Ell for parallel motion with the L-hook on the G-stroke.)

Re: The Sorcerer's Progress

njc wrote:

Because it's grammatically unsound.

I get that it looks like dinner was also put to bed, but that's not the point. The point is: is it important to know the kids were put to bed? Why not simply 'After dinner, Gisselle ...' and that's it? So these are my questions:

Why is it important to know 'after dinner'?
It gives me the time of day. No probs.

Why is it important to know 'after H&G were put to bed'?
....... Uhm ... I have no idea. *reads on and get to end of chapter* I still have no idea.

You leave me hanging. So it's either important and then you need to explain to me why it is important that they are in bed because I don't know from the sentence or the rest of the chapter (remember, you wrote it such that I paused and started to wonder) or it's not important and then it shouldn't be there.