1,026 Reply by amy s

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

And use awesome sauce in a sentence. Don't forget that.

A confusing thing to me is that NJC says, "I don't do well with Jenna's voice. That's your skill." Yet K says, "I slashed away words with ruthless efficiency...I was able to do it by trampling the character's oblique thinking pattern with my own linear pattern."  So K didn't edit to clarify Jenna's voice. He made Jenna conform to his needs as the author. In other words, he wiped her voice. All over a potato, no less.

NJC, you said, "That's not changing from oblique thinking to linear.  That's wiping the thinking out and writing in its outcome".  I disagree. You advise that I try a writing exercise that has me follow rules, lay out words like wooden blocks, and construct a sentence/paragraph/ chapter from a pre-conceived outline where I already know the outcome. This is so opposed to the way that I write that it can only be described as linear. It implies a plan. Organization. The words may not be scribed in a line, but the plan makes it like the construction of a jigsaw puzzle.

Back to writing for utter efficiency, parity of word choice and targeted value per word count... The way I see this happening is for me to write as I normally do and then go back to summarize, writing an outline of the action only. Then I could insert adjectives and description, tightening it down to words that HAD to be there. Then I would go back and add in the flow, smoothing out the prose. I would probably leave the conversation since that is how I drive the story forward.

I know this sounds back-assed. Even to me. However, it also sounds like a great editing tool.

When I went to the convention in Chicago, an author gave a talk on editing. She initially self-published, but her book was picked up by a publishing house. However, to get her book to a wider audience, this woman had to go from 130K words to 50K words.  No joke. She had to slash her novel in half.

She did so, going through the work and thinning everything for clarity and value. Every word had to mean something.

Then her publisher decided they could market a book of 80K words. She had to go back again and add material. (She said she couldn't just use her old manuscript because by then, it was an entirely different book). By the time she had her draft done, the book was unrecognizable. It had been stripped, cleaned up, and then remodeled.

For me to do what she did, I need to have the first draft done. (Writing first for concept so that I'll have the outline in my head). Doing this with new writing makes my head spin. However, that doesn't keep me from trying this out on a previous chapter somewhere in the dungeon. I'm willing to try. I'll make this one of my goals. Just as an exercise. We'll see what happens.

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1,027 Reply by njc

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

I hope you never have to do that!

Now ... as to preconceived formula:  The preconceived formula is just the exact sequence of events, for all events internal and external.  It doesn't cover things like 'I'd never dreamed of anything so wonderful.'  Nor do I suggest or demand that you write everything that way ... only that you practice a little so that you learn, as a habit, how to see that ordering.  That will give you the freedom to use it or avoid it by choice.  I don't think you'll ever be a pointilist, or want to be.  But doing things on that very foreign way for an hour or so, on a very short sample, may show you the other side of Jack Spratt (or his wife ... you decide which is which).

Unless you think the exercise will ruin you forever?

When a movie script is written, especially for an action movie, it's often converted into cartoon-like drawings called a storyboard.  Sometimes (as for Jackson's LoTR) the director or author and a few others play out the parts before a camera to test both the script and the director's blocking and composition of shots.

What I'm suggesting is a little like rehearsing the story internally, going through things as they happen, as they must happen, for things to make sense.

Back to The Elements of PROGRAMMING Style for a moment.  The authors suggest, in different words, that the first step is to be able to identify bad style so you can go back and revise it ... and the second step is learning, during the revision, how to avoid the problems when you first write it, so revision is less and less necessary over time.

Only KH can say how well the samples I wrote match Jenna's voice.  In part, that's because he's kept it to himself so much!  More specifically, he's let Jenna show herself by her large actions, but not by small details.  A detail like the Unfamilar Potato can be telling--and touching.  If I didn't know Jenna before, this would hit me in the face like a mudpie.

I  have to work on description because I don't see things that way--yet.  When I work mentally I cut right to the action and skip the establishing shots and all the rest.  But I'm trying, and maybe even doing a little better.  The ideal, of course, is to have the description and action so closely linked that you can't pigeonhole the bits of story into one or the other.  That's a long way off for me.  But the nearer goals will get me closer.

Ah, I've got email about your next posting.  And Awwwayyy Wweee Gooo!

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1,028 Reply by njc (edited by njc 2015-12-14 15:39:08)

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Tazar fit through the narrow passage, but it was tight. Each one of the priests had light glowing from their speartips, so he could see well enough to know where to place his hands for the least damage.

Tazar worked his way through the narrow passage.  It was a tight fit, but with the light from five glowing speartips he was able to find safe handholds.

Still not great, but a bit better.

Critter must have cut a bleeder, he thought. He limped to his pack and sat down next to it. He reached inside without looking, pulling out a supply of bandages. Using a waxy plug of poultice, he chewed the slug and then slathered the mix over his wound. He replaced Alda’s bandage with one of his own, wrapping it around his calf.

Critter must have cut a bleeder, he thought. He limped to his pack and sat down next to it. He reached inside without looking, and pulled out a roll(?) of bandages and a plug of poultice.  He chewed the waxy plug into a paste and slathered the mix over the length of his wound. He replaced Alda’s bandage with one of his own, wrapping his injured calf tightly.

Not sure if I preserved the facts ... but you see how I read them.

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Amy, first priority is to get the first draft done. Any new writing from now on, keep this in the back of your mind and try to apply, but don't let it interrupt your flow/speed. Something like this, if you're a little bit like me, could make you go around in circles instead of forward. So try to incorporate it, but not at all cost. Easier said than done though!

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

njc wrote:

Tazar fit through the narrow passage, but it was tight. Each one of the priests had light glowing from their speartips, so he could see well enough to know where to place his hands for the least damage.

Tazar worked his way through the narrow passage.  It was a tight fit, but with the light from five glowing speartips he was able to find safe handholds.

Still not great, but a bit better.

Critter must have cut a bleeder, he thought. He limped to his pack and sat down next to it. He reached inside without looking, pulling out a supply of bandages. Using a waxy plug of poultice, he chewed the slug and then slathered the mix over his wound. He replaced Alda’s bandage with one of his own, wrapping it around his calf.

Critter must have cut a bleeder, he thought. He limped to his pack and sat down next to it. He reached inside without looking, and pulled out a roll(?) of bandages and a plug of poultice.  He chewed the waxy plug into a paste and slathered the mix over the length of his wound. He replaced Alda’s bandage with one of his own, wrapping his injured calf tightly.

Not sure if I preserved the facts ... but you see how I read them.

I'm not so sure what you're trying to achieve with these edits njc. Your changes are not really/drastically different. Dare I say this might be more a difference between your writing style/voice and Amy's?

My biggest gripe is your changes to the first example. Priests are holding the glowing spears, by cutting that, it may now come across as if five glowing spears are hovering around Tazza. Given this is magic, I'd think important to note that bit. Then again, I still need to read the chapter, so in context it might have been mentioned before and this is more of the same/repeating. But if not, someone has to be holding those spears unless they are walking by themselves.

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1,031 Reply by njc

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

The problem with the five priests is that the sentence is overloaded.  The main topic (Tazar's traverse of the passage) is introduced, and then we have to introduce a whole 'minor premise' almost as an aside.  You could change 'five glowing speartips' in my version to 'the five priests' glowing speartips' but we've tread that point repeatedly in the story.

Amy's version of the second paragraph doesn't tell us if plug is slug is poultice, or why Tazar would chew it.  I had to guess at the connection to make it explicit.  It uses the participle for 'pulling out' as a modifier on the act of going in--a contradiction.  We're left to surmise (reasonably) that Tazar bandages the injured calf, but saying so does not break the flow.  'Supply' is a vague word with no picture.  'Roll' is specific, and provides a picture.

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Second paragrapgh I'm not too fussed - some clarification is warranted. But on the first one I still disagree. If it's Tazza's POV, and he sees five priests holding spears with light bulbs while he's on his arse squeezing through a tight spot, that doesn't take away from the main topic at all especially because it's mentioned as an aside. Now, if Amy describe each spear, what each priest was wearing, etc etc, get the scissors.

Quote Post 1,032

1,033 Reply by njc

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

I don't say the information shouldn't be there (though Tazar probably doesn't actually see them as he weaves through), but that if you put it in that place, in that sentence, in that paragraph, you distract from and dilute the main action of the paragraph.

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1,034 Reply by njc

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Let me add a thought on Janet's "It's just an aside."  A Cooper Mini is a small car, but it would be very large if you tried to use it as a motorcycle sidecar!  The result would be hideously unbalanced--unless maybe you used this motorcycle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Tomahawk  (That's a frightening thought, actually.)

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1,035 Reply by njc

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

To answer your Q? tell me where to look for the clues I missed.

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1,036 Reply by amy s

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Fair enough. But I need time to write that email. Give me some time.

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1,037 Reply by njc

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

At a certain point you have to stop showing or your story mires itself in detail.  That said, I think this passage might be improved, but not by going as far as you have.  'tight fit' is a plausible target, but 'narrow' is direct description, though not related specifically to Tazar's scantlings.

You've also added conclusions not supported by the original story.  Had an animal broken through that, the crystaline points would have broken off.

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

njc wrote:

Let me add a thought on Janet's "It's just an aside."  A Cooper Mini is a small car, but it would be very large if you tried to use it as a motorcycle sidecar!  The result would be hideously unbalanced--unless maybe you used this motorcycle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Tomahawk  (That's a frightening thought, actually.)

Hey! That's your "It's just an aside", not mine, you said it first!

And since I'm ruining a good friendship ... wink

Amy said "so he could see well enough to know where to place his hands for the least damage" while you changed it to "safe handholds". There's a difference. "Safe" for me is "no damage" whereas I think Amy meant "a place with least damage" which is better, but still will result in some damage, i.e. not safe in other words. Amy can correct me if I'm wrong. smile

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1,039 Reply by amy s

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

I was seeing clumps of rocks at bad placement that he has to squirm around to get through. Because there are crystalline formations, there are limited places for him to grab, hold, or turn against without getting cut again. Those formations can be sharp.

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1,040 Reply by njc

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Well, by now Amy's reader has a sense of Tazar's packaging dimensions, and her narrator said it was a tight fit for him.  I think this distinction might matter in Lit Fic, but not in Fantasy or Commercial Fiction.

Your point about narrative versus dialogue is worth remembering.

Janet, yes I did say it's an aside ... an asidecar the size of a Cooper Mini.  Technology has a worse expression: 'A bag on the side'.  I'm sure Amy gets the picture, even if you don't.

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1,041 Reply by amy s

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Everybody who has been shot in the belly comes in and somehow they all know what a 'bag' is.

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1,042 Reply by njc

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

See The New Hacker's Dictionary on catb.org .

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1,043 Reply by amy s

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Interesting. Didn't know the evolved meaning though

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

njc wrote:

The problem with the five priests is that the sentence is overloaded.  The main topic (Tazar's traverse of the passage) is introduced, and then we have to introduce a whole 'minor premise' almost as an aside.  You could change 'five glowing speartips' in my version to 'the five priests' glowing speartips' but we've tread that point repeatedly in the story.

Amy's version of the second paragraph doesn't tell us if plug is slug is poultice, or why Tazar would chew it.  I had to guess at the connection to make it explicit.  It uses the participle for 'pulling out' as a modifier on the act of going in--a contradiction.  We're left to surmise (reasonably) that Tazar bandages the injured calf, but saying so does not break the flow.  'Supply' is a vague word with no picture.  'Roll' is specific, and provides a picture.

So if I understand this correctly, you meant aside here as an asidecar? And not only that, an asidecar the size of a mini cooper? Yeap, for sure we aren't talking of the same thing!

But irrespective of aside, asidecars or the size of the things, I didn't find it as big of an intrusion as you, I saw it as necessary from T's POV. And I think readers will unlikely find Amy's original version problematic, they will read it and read on. This isn't saying we shouldn't strive to put out the best work we can, just that there is, like with all things in life, a balance.

I'm going to step away now with the grace of a hippo. smile

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1,045 Reply by njc

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

janet reid wrote:

I'm going to step away now with the grace of a hippo. smile

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FTlnV6_uaK4

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1,046 Reply by Erndog

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Regarding Alda's inner voice. That will work just fine, but the reader needs to be able to distinguish it from what reads like narrative. I don't recall anything where this is explained. As for a back story way earlier you could explain it thus:, Alda has become a loner, maybe because of her different point of view or being a conduit and not knowing it. This little (narrative) voice in her head is her way of dealing with her special circumstances. This 'voice' needs to be explained an an early chapter, chapter one or two perhaps,  so we know what's going on and are not confused by these inner conversations.

Ernie

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

njc wrote:
janet reid wrote:

I'm going to step away now with the grace of a hippo. smile

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FTlnV6_uaK4

Not those hippos though, the other ones! wink

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1,048 Reply by amy s

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Point taken, Ernie. Hit me in the head with a brick enough and I'm bound to pay attention.

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1,049 Reply by njc

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

For reference, this monster has a mouth and a spare: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.p … VnGMFv9Okm

Hitting with bricks is for kets, not rytters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krazy_Kat

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1,050 Reply by Erndog

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

For some cool medieval eye-munchies of old castles (estates really) see the program "Great Houses with Julian Fellows."  It's on Public TV (PBS) on Sunday nights where I live. Not only are there fantastic things to see (for ideas) the stories about the owners and their servants are also very applicable to the Fantasy genre.

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