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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Oh, I haven't mastered that stuff.  I'm still working on it.  (I got a belly laugh over the point.)

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

amy s wrote:

Hmmm. I thought it was an autocorrect of 'flossing'. What does that say about me? Not good...not good...

It just means you never visited a whaling museum.  They have one on Nantucket.

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

njc wrote:
amy s wrote:

Hmmm. I thought it was an autocorrect of 'flossing'. What does that say about me? Not good...not good...

It just means you never visited a whaling museum.  They have one on Nantucket.

I have, in Albany WA (as in, Western Australia). I'm really going to lose my badge. yikes

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

D'OH! You're right about the bitty and biddy conflagration, as in itty-bitty tittie. I suppose you could also have an itty-bitty biddy tittie, or an itty biddy itty-bitty tittie, but I don't recommend using that.

ET

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

When Alina's staff exploded, and all the linked staffs separated and survived, was that 'natural' or was it the result of someone/something intervening?

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Natural. She kept the rule about not touching another person's focus (reinforced by a sacrificial example or two). However, it was a sham. Alina's wand/staff won't explode until the last linked student dies. Then there is going to be a wasteland the size of a couple nukes. Not Alina's problem. Katerin has to figure this out and find a way to continue recruiting. Otherwise kaboom.

Oh, Alina's wand didn't explode. Katerin's wand was sacrificed when Anver overloaded it and forced the charge onto Alina. That was how Anver beat her in the duel.

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Oops, right.  Kat got the Mistress's wand.  But what's happened, and to happen, is not the result of intervention.  Hmmm.


Tilly seconded the now-enhanced Anver.  Will she show any effects?  Oh, and is there some kind of truce between her and Kat, or is Anver just the fence between them?

1,008 (edited by njc 2015-12-13 17:20:50)

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Regarding the thing that I'm trying to teach and haven't yet mastered, let me quote not =The Elements of Style= but the out-of-print =The Elements of PROGRAMMING Style=, by Kernighan and Plauger.

The eternal wisdom to which I draw you attention is one of their foundation maxims:

Say what you mean, simply and directly.

It's easier to do this in program code than in prose, but it's worth working towards CONSTANTLY.

There's a book by Jacques Barzun called =Simple and Direct=.  I disagree with enough of his maxims that I can't wholly recommend the book.  But he was a great teacher and his =From Dawn to Decadence= (written in his 80s and 90s, when he thought he 'might have a few years left'--and subsequently revised!) ought to be required reading.

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

I'm listening, but you have an advantage in that you can see the pieces or building blocks. I can't. What I see is a spare and sparse Wordage that is supposed to mean the same thing as full prose.

Let's try this. Reword this para to your satisfaction. Realize that since this is a description of food, I want to include sensory overtones.

Sam came downstairs to the crisp overtones of bacon hanging on the
air. Eggs sizzled and popped on the nearby stove. Dishes chimed as the table was set, taking their places next to the warm-up cascade of silverware.

I think the crux of my confusion about your style is that adjectives are a communication tool. People understand nouns, but those don't evoke emotions. Adverbs force action, taking the reader someplace they might not want to go. However, adjectives make people drool, describing situations that they relate to.

By my understanding, the sentence above would be rewritten as, 'Sam walked downstairs while his wife cooked breakfast'.  Although I know this isn't what you are teaching, this is how I understand your advice.

Teaching and corrections requested.

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Amy, in my opinion, it depends. Is the crisp overtones of bacon and the sizzling eggs important in the plot/scene or not? It could be, because Sam might been in the bush camping for 3 months with no bacon and eggs. It'd be strange if he doesn't 'notice' it. Or does Sam have a hangover and the smells make him nauseous? Or does Sam have eggs and bacon every single morning? Then, you would change the 'pleasantness' of the smell to show his underlying grudge that it's *again* effin bacon and eggs. How hungry is Sam? I can carry on. If it's not important/critical/'carrying its weight', why expand and give it so much plot space? Not important? "Same came downstairs and kissed the back of his wife's neck where she was frying bacon and eggs." In my example, for example, it's about the kiss more than the bacon and eggs. But a hungry reader or someone who didn't have bacon and eggs for breakfast in a long time would still have that saliva thing going when reading "simple" bacon and eggs.

Now, if I could only be this clever when I write my own stuff ...

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

You just wrote that she was grilling bacon and eggs on her neck. Look at the tags:-)

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

amy s wrote:

You just wrote that she was grilling bacon and eggs on her neck. Look at the tags:-)

LOL! But you know what I mean!!!!!

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

;-)

1,014 (edited by Erndog 2015-12-14 03:00:26)

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Sensory input is important because it fleshes out the milieu. For me that's very important, because when I read I become very engrossed. It's like having a widescreen, 3D movie running in my mind. When description and sensory input is overdone it gets in the way and become superfluous, and it's like saying blah,blah, blah or yadda yadda yadda. Description and sensory can be minimal during scenes that are terribly exciting, providing the venue has already been established. If description and sensory information is too minimal when it should not be, it can become like listening to a radio drama with no sound effects. It's all dialog with no sense for those things that provide a backdrop for which the action takes place in. Finding the right balance can be summed up by saying don't put anything unnecessary in your writing unless it helps put the reader in their movie. Unfortunately, people have different opinions about how much to include.

On to something else. Amy. I really have to harp on this McGuffin thing. Here I am many chapters into the story, where the Voice sends Jaylene the message about the Defiler, and until this point I didn't have a feel for the direction of the story. The chapters work well and they are fun to read, but I don't get a sure feeling where all these characters are going and why they are going there, except to fix whatever has happened in that chapter. It's sorta like watching a race where people are running, but no finish line has been established, or how many laps, distance. one has to go.

So if the Defiler is the McGuffin, I think this threat needs to be noted up front as well as what (Bad) things are changing or happening to clue in the characters and the reader. What is at stake in the story?

Jaylene is back from the dead, Alda is a conduit, Tazar is saved, Charm turns out to be a demon. These are all important, but I don't have a clue as to where all this is leading (until maybe this last chapter.) Again, I might be totally wrong and may have missed something along the way.
Ernie, AKA mR. Fussy Pants

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Janet's remarks are on point here.  And much depends on the action and sequence in which this must fit.

amy s wrote:

Sam came downstairs to the crisp overtones of bacon hanging on the
air. Eggs sizzled and popped on the nearby stove. Dishes chimed as the table was set, taking their places next to the warm-up cascade of silverware.

You've got synesthesia here.   Sizzle is to the ear, bacon's aroma to the nose.  And bacon's aroma is so strong that it will overwhelm the eggs.

There might be another lesson here.  If you go to art school, even for photography, they'll want you to learn to draw first.  Pencil and paper is the simplest medium and requires the least learning of the medium freeing you to learn the essence of representative art, and that essence is to unlearn, to learn to see with your eyes instead of your brain.  To learn to see a thing as your eyes show it to you, not as your brain says it must be.  Because you are trying to present something to someone else's eyes, not directly to  his brain.

This might be the unwinding of your sorting socks.  Or maybe not.

Let me offer another analogy.  An electrical engineer learns first how to study the behaviour of an electrical circuit as a function of time.  But very soon the study turns to characterizing according to frequency or 'moment'.  The tools are the Fourier and Laplace transform, which have nearly the same algebraic form in practice, and have the great virtue of turning the calculus into algebra.  Hairy polynomial algebra, but algebra still.  (And today we have other transforms, and I don't know the beginning of it: Z transform, wavelets, ... ... ...)

The beginning student sees the circuit either in the time domain OR in the frequency domain.  The accomplished engineer (which I am not) sees it in both domains at once, and understands the effect of a circuit change in both domains at once.

The accomplished artist sees with both the eyes and the brain, at once.  Socks AND their sorting.

I think the crux of my confusion about your style is that adjectives are a communication tool. People understand nouns, but those don't evoke emotions. Adverbs force action, taking the reader someplace they might not want to go. However, adjectives make people drool, describing situations that they relate to.

Not always true.  'sizzle' is a verb (sometimes noun), not an adjective.  Strunk and White will tell you (perhaps paraphrasing Twain?) that the adjective hasn't been built that can get you out of a tight place.  And in the opening matter of An Exultation of Larks the author points to the glory of English's huge vocabulary, for instance the differing shades of 'paternal'' and 'fatherly'.

Let's see how I might have treated your incident, bearing in mind that grammar mood and grammar flow and topic flow are always involved.

How old is Sam?  It affects how he moves down the stairs.  Is he hungry or sated?  It affects his reaction to the smell of frying fat.  And of course, he is neither a vegetarian nor an observant Jew or Moslem.

Here's a first try:

The aroma of hot bacon had reached the second floor.  Sam's hunger became insistant and he padded down the stairs, the smell of sizzling eggs joining the bacon as he went.

A bit pointilistic, perhaps, but you might try pointilism as an exercise, just to pull you toward center.

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

I can go through a chapter and thin it to the bones by paying attention to a word count. That would initiate a similar thinning. However, for a first draft, I think my head would explode to refine my work that heavily.

Still thinking on this, though

1,017 (edited by njc 2015-12-14 05:49:00)

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

It wouldn't be the same thinning.

Try taking a sequence maybe 30 to 50 words long.  Consider sensation, awareness, emotive response, communication, and action all and each as events.  Place them in order, first to last, cause before effect (efficient causation).  Write first with nouns and verbs, then with modifiers of color, number, and place.  Look for the best description you can with those, and only then seek to flesh them out.  Choose modifiers that are specific rather than abstract.  Look for modifiers that (eep!) synergize with what they modify (but avoid cliche).

There's a wonderful line from a famous writer's description of Ted Williams: "... radiates the hard blue glow of high purpose."  The abstract has been given a feeling as concrete as concrete itself.

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

If I were the type to rewrite others' stories I'd change it to: I chewed a bite of potato, savouring the unusual flavour. I needed the distraction.

I'd even think working desperately in somehow would also be good.

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

njc wrote:

It wouldn't be the same thinning.Try taking a sequence maybe 30 to 50 words long.  Consider sensation, awareness, emotive response, communication, and action all and each as events.

In =Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance=, a book that I don't know whether to recommend, the narrator recalls trying to get a student to write with focussed specifics.  He wanted her to write an essay; she chose the USA as a topic.  Too broad he said, forcing her down through her state, her county, her town, neighborhood, and street, past her home and down to a single brick in the front wall.

She filled page after page with vivd descriptions of that brick, its colors and imperfections.

You don't have this fictional student's inability to focus, but your descriptions do not always stand up to close examination of the physics and your logic flow is sometimes irregular.  That's why I'm suggesting this detailed exercise--on the small scale, please!  If it works for you, you'll be able to carry the lessons to your larger work and the questions will nag you when you need nagging--and only then.  They'll pipe up more often at first, but experience will show them their place in the team.

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

K, I wouldn't have cut nearly as much as you did.  If it moves your character to tears, the reader shoukd know why.

1,021 (edited by njc 2015-12-14 10:45:01)

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Oh, K (where have we heard that?) you might want to see the revision I put up of my B1 Ch90 (which really belongs in a later volume).  See how it plays on these description and interior description questions.

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Minor edit to B1 Ch90.  It doesn't address any of Amy's comments.  That would be hard.  It's just a little fine-tuning of the alternating PoV/thread.

1,023 (edited by njc 2015-12-14 10:47:02)

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

That's not changing from oblique thinking to linear.  That's wiping the thinking out and writing in its outcome.

1,024 (edited by njc 2015-12-14 11:26:50)

Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Here's K's first (let's say background) version.

The first roasted potato I placed in my mouth was so different from what I’ve had for the last four years of my life that I had trouble chewing it. The textures were crisp on the outside, yet malleable and buttery. The insides were creamy, and burnt my tongue. This, by far, was the best meal of my life. It brought a tear to my eye that I tried to wipe at with the back of my hand as it crawled down my cheek.

Here's what he used.

I chewed a bit of potato thoughtfully, revelling in a flavour I was unused to. It was a delicious distraction.

Let's see how I would have cut it.

My first bite of roasted potato burned my tongue.  I smiled and wiped away a tear, but not for the pain.  I'd never had anything like it: crisp outside, squishy and buttery--and hot!--within.  It was the best thing I'd ever eaten.

You cut over three quarters.  I cut a little over half.  Yet I kept most of your detail.  I didn't do quite as well with Jenna's voice, but that's your personal skill.  I also used both the Dread Forbidden Colon and the Abominable Em Dash, as well as a med!al exclamat!on po!nt.  Nobody but a Crusading Editor would notice.

Edit: One more revison:

I burned my tongue on the roasted potato.  I smiled and wiped away a tear, but not for the pain.  I'd never had anything like it: crisp outside, squishy and buttery within--and hot!  It was the best food I'd ever tasted.


Edit: Another:

I burned my tongue trying the roasted potato.  I'd never had anything like it: crisp outside, squishy and buttery within--and hot!  I smiled and wiped away a tear, but not for the pain.  I'd never dreamed of anything so wonderful.

Moments like this are gold.  Don't be so quick to throw them away.  (PS: If you haven't, read The Screwtape Letters.  The book does apply to Jenna here.)

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Re: Acts/ Dictates/ Mandates/ Mantle - Amy's Thread

Thank you.  A KH compliment!  I must learn how to happy-dance.