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Jeez, a gazillion posts since the recommendation to preview "The Martian" and see how bad the writing is. Well, I did that this morning. And I didn't find anything outrageous or outre. It was a log, and I thought it read like a log would. No "showing" or dialogue applied. I don't get the sneering. But I only read a few pages. Does the author lose all sense of literacy further on? Just curious, since I didn't see anything, even if it were written by a TNBW author, to nit about.
Oh, and what's this about closing the thread (presumably because of the increasing vitriol) and then reopening it? I don't get it, Sol.
Jeez, a gazillion posts since the recommendation to preview "The Martian" and see how bad the writing is. Well, I did that this morning. And I didn't find anything outrageous or outre. It was a log, and I thought it read like a log would. No "showing" or dialogue applied. I don't get the sneering. But I only read a few pages. Does the author lose all sense of literacy further on? Just curious, since I didn't see anything, even if it were written by a TNBW author, to nit about.
A piece of commercial writing is reviewed objectively by individuals who then subjectively express their individual opinions about it for the purpose of a discussion (as you do). Why are the opinions that don't conform to your own, labelled sneering? Are you the ultimate authority upon the official quality of prose? It is totally okay that you liked it; that's the point of the discussion. The opinions that are pro or con are valued equally. Nobody is going to call you a shallow minded cheerleader or some such for having an opinion of your own, but why be aggressive and attack other legitimate points of view as sneering? It comes across as if you hold any opinion other than your own in contempt?
There is a broad span of personal taste, opinion and preference when it comes to any art form or media product. Can this community not hold an open minded discussion upon literature and the art or writing within the bounds of respect, understanding and civil minded debate? Where is the professionalism and camaraderie? Why must aggression be injected and points be made with snarky digs at people with opposing views? That kind of behaviour discourages others from entering into a conversation because it is not friendly and not conducive to an open minded community.
... You spoke earlier about using the natural speech patterns within dialogue. To alter this character's speech pattern would change him....
Har! True.
Looks like I gone GOT busted! 
jack the knife wrote:Jeez, a gazillion posts since the recommendation to preview "The Martian" and see how bad the writing is. Well, I did that this morning. And I didn't find anything outrageous or outre. It was a log, and I thought it read like a log would. No "showing" or dialogue applied. I don't get the sneering. But I only read a few pages. Does the author lose all sense of literacy further on? Just curious, since I didn't see anything, even if it were written by a TNBW author, to nit about.
A piece of commercial writing is reviewed objectively by individuals who then subjectively express their individual opinions about it for the purpose of a discussion (as you do). Why are the opinions that don't conform to your own, labelled sneering? Are you the ultimate authority upon the official quality of prose? It is totally okay that you liked it; that's the point of the discussion. The opinions that are pro or con are valued equally. Nobody is going to call you a shallow minded cheerleader or some such for having an opinion of your own, but why be aggressive and attack other legitimate points of view as sneering? It comes across as if you hold any opinion other than your own in contempt?
There is a broad span of personal taste, opinion and preference when it comes to any art form or media product. Can this community not hold an open minded discussion upon literature and the art or writing within the bounds of respect, understanding and civil minded debate? Where is the professionalism and camaraderie? Why must aggression be injected and points be made with snarky digs at people with opposing views? That kind of behaviour discourages others from entering into a conversation because it is not friendly and not conducive to an open minded community.
Perhaps my use of "sneering" was a bit much, but that was the impression I got. I didn't intend to disparage other viewpoints on the piece, only to inquire why those who thought it was a bad example of writing thought so, since I didn't see it. It's supposed to be a discussion, not a vehicle for ad hominem comments.
Perhaps my use of "sneering" was a bit much, but that was the impression I got. I didn't intend to disparage other viewpoints on the piece, only to inquire why those who thought it was a bad example of writing thought so, since I didn't see it. It's supposed to be a discussion, not a vehicle for ad hominem comments.
It started with Vern congenially expressing an opinion then asking for other opinions, and me supplying one;
.... Just curious about other opinions on this particular book or one which may have had the same "junk" status for you, yet did quite well in the market. Take care. Vern
Hi Vern
We were discussing similar in an adjacent group forum/thread;
In this case it is the current bestseller, (and now a major movie) ‘The Martian’
I wasn't impressed with what I read and I'm more than happy to outline why (which I shall do). But that is just my personal take and I was delighted to hear other views, especially those that contradict mine. (I want to understand what it is about this novel that has made it so successful and revered). Therefore, I am very interested in understanding what others see in it and have read corra's comments in detail and am grateful to her for taking the time to express her own opinions whilst answering or addressing my concerns about the prose with her own views.
I don't mean to be harsh or aggressive, I'd just love this site to harbour genuine discussions about literature and writing where anyone feels comfortable to voice an opinion and have that opinion respected, discussed and addressed with a counter-argument if another opinion warrants it; but without digs or personal attacks.
Yes, we all have passion and enthusiasm and yes it pours out. But there is a balance. If we are open-minded and readily agree to disagree, there is a huge amount of value and enjoyment to be had here within our discussions, if only we allow it.
It's epistolary: the protagonist begins the novel writing as he would speak. He has no idea anyone's actually going to read the logs.
I "got" a different opinion in that he does seem to at least hope that someone will read it. It will/should be discovered when the next mission returns to Mars regardless of whether he is still alive or not. He takes great care to tell those who left him it was not their fault and he also speaks of trying to make it understandable by any laymen who might end up reading it.
He also is a botanist as well as a mechanical engineer so obviously well educated. So would he really speak this way? Perhaps he would as I do know fairly well educated folks who tend not to show such through their normal speech. However, he is writing this with the stated hope and possibility that it will indeed be read; otherwise his time could be much better spent on the things he is actually writing about doing in order to survive.
Regardless of his speech pattern, that is not what makes it a difficult sale in my view. I think the logs could well be incorporated by spreading them out rather than all at once in order to bring more action/drama/hook at the beginning. For instance, the story of how he was actually stranded could be told through normal narrative as well as inner thought to better effect imho. He could even bring in dialogue from his last communications with the others as well as futile attempts once he was cut off. That could increase the tension and show some small character traits of the others while trying to rescue or decide to abandon him.
At any rate, it is hard to argue with success and my hat is off to anyone who pulls it off, especially if it was indeed initially self-published. I shall have to read further based upon your report of later chapters. Take care. Vern
I felt that introducing the story with a log was a blatant and inelegant way of trooping out the backstory in condensed format.
I mean this guy is stranded on another planet by way of a traumatic disaster and assumes he is about to die and his first thought is to write a log that documents the chronology of the previous Mars missions and a breakdown of the exploration program and circumstances that led up to his own mission?
Is that really the psyche of a seemly reluctant astronaut who has been recently been stranded alone, presumed dead on another world? I’ll be honest, as a reader I’m having difficulty believing the character at this point.
These are the real-time thoughts of a man in a desperate situation (in situ) whilst he stares (self-proclaimed) certain death in the face….
“From there, we took the MDV (Mars descent vehicle) to the surface. The MDV is basically a big can with some light thrusters and parachutes attached. Its sole purpose is to get six humans from Mars orbit to the surface without killing any of them. “
“And now we come to the real trick of Mars exploration: having all of our shit there in advance.”
“A total of fourteen unmanned missions deposited everything we would need for surface operations. They tried their best to land all the supply vessels in the same general area, and did a reasonably good job. Supplies aren't nearly so fragile as humans and can hit the ground really hard. But they tend to bounce around a lot.”
This and all the other mission chronology stuff should come out in another way, it might be a good story but the intro is lazy writing IMO.
Maybe a good case for a prologue?
I believe it! He's got no one to talk to! The log is his only real reason to use his voice. To work out his ideas and leave a bit of himself, should the inevitable happen: a bit which with luck won't be destroyed by sand storms or quill pigs invading the planet -- or overlooked. (No one knows he survived, and who is going to waste time and money looking through old wreckage?)
The author made a structural call to begin the novel with the reader and Mark alone on Mars together. The log makes the communication from Mark to the reader personal and direct. It creates a vehicle for suspense (we find out what's gone wrong as he does), and we don't know as the novel opens more than he knows.
His personality is flippant throughout the book. That's part of his character. He begins by filling in a lot of background detail on the off-chance that someone will find the log one day and want the back story. Piping believable! Says I actually!
(I wrote that quickly! I got to run!) 
I believe it! He's got no one to talk to! The log is his only real reason to use his voice....
Ah, I see! It's written in that other POV; not 'First Person,' 'Third Person' or even 'Second Person', but 'Only Person'
Literary Fiction, it ain't. However far Mars is from Earth is how distant this opening is from Literary Fiction.
Okay, okay, I kind of buy what you are saying and normally I trust your judgement above my own. I do see the need for the backstory to be put out there somehow, but I'd like to see a bit more of the man before he gives me the history of NASA.
Straight into the random remote information dump is maybe not the best constructed intro chapter IMO.
I "got" a different opinion...
LOL! Are we going to 'get' quotation marks, apostrophes, bold or italic wherever we 'get' "got" from now on?
Below is a review of the Martian cut and pasted from the Amazon (UK) site. There are plenty of very positive reviews too, but this one with its;
"he seems to be devoid of any actual thoughts. Considering his position, stranded on Mars, you'd think he may have a moment of depression, doubt, or desolation; not a bit of it! Nothing, not even followed by a bit of "pull yourself together man!"
...seems to resonate with me and way I feel about it. I've bought the novel, a real bargain at three quid for the paperback with free next day delivery (I don't know how they do it? It would cost me £3 just to send this book to myself using 2nd Class (economy) postage).
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40 of 41 people found the following review helpful
1.0 out of 5 stars Makes Dan Brown look like Dostoevsky
ByWoodenlighthouseon 24 May 2015
Format: Kindle EditionVerified Purchase
I was recommended this book by a friend, so I came at it wanting to like it. I'm a technologist so it ought to have been right down my street; oh dear. It's been said before, but bears saying again; this is appallingly written. I had to give up, I'm sorry, but there are too many good books in the world to persevere with this tosh.
The main character is shallow and other than his ability to think through a technological solution to any given problem, he seems to be devoid of any actual thoughts. Considering his position, stranded on Mars, you'd think he may have a moment of depression, doubt, or desolation; not a bit of it! Nothing, not even followed by a bit of "pull yourself together man!"
This seems more like a sixteen-year-old's extended school essay, than a proper book. And it wouldn't have gained anything higher than a B. Simplistic solutions, annoying writing style, boring characters. I'd travel to Mars just to knock him senseless with a spade, but he'd probably see it as a minor set back he could solve with a few more litres of his own excrement.
Any film of this must be based on the premise, not on the style.
vern wrote:I "got" a different opinion...
LOL! Are we going to 'get' quotation marks, apostrophes, bold or italic wherever we 'get' "got" from now on?
Ditto the lol. Yeah, we probably will; at least till another subject comes along to dim the memory. I think it's a natural law or something right up there with gravity. Take care. Vern
Okay, okay, I kind of buy what you are saying and normally I trust your judgement above my own. I do see the need for the backstory to be put out there somehow, but I'd like to see a bit more of the man before he gives me the history of NASA.
The novel is plot-driven. It's not so much about who the man is as where he's ended up and what in the world he's going to do about it. It's not particularly well-written, but it's not meant to be literary fiction. The words do the job, as I said: they convey the tale. The opening had me bored by sixty pages in, but that's when the story picked up. (I didn't actually mind the early part of the opening, but the logs get repetitive after a while.)
My point was that, given that the author made the structural call to open in the "only person" POV, I'm not sure how else he could quickly offer back story? I was glad to get it out of the way, and I found the premise (he's writing the back-story on the off chance someone finds his log) believable.
I didn't find him unemotional about his situation? He cries in a few places, he gets extremely angry in a few places -- I can't say more without spoiling. But his personality is very much, "This is the situation I'm in. I'm going to see if I can think my way out." He doesn't spend his log saying, "This is horrible and these are all of the ways I'm scared." He uses it to say, "This is the current situation." Of course he's scared. That can be assumed.
I don't think the book would be as good restructured to a third person perspective as Vern suggests. I was bored with the back-to-back logs as it begins, but having read the whole, I can see why it opens that way.
(You bought a copy? I'm not recommending it. I'm saying I liked it.)
(You bought a copy? I'm not recommending it. I'm saying I liked it.)
Seeing as you are recommending it so highly, I will hold you personally responsible for my enjoyment of this pulp.
Yes, I made a purchase and it should be there at the home, like a dead goldfish or a sick puppy, waiting for me when I return from work this evening.
Or, should I say, "Yep, I've gone and got me it."
From a small bunch of reader reviews that I've read (Amazon UK and Goodreads), there are several that, like you, state they began reading and were less than enamoured with the initial experience but grew to like it very much and by the end were very pleased that they'd stuck with it. The book seems to have a certain charm that is perhaps not immediately felt.
I've based my opinions upon the first few pages, I've never read beyond. If you recall I started to talk about 'the Martian' within the 'Literary Openings' thread on the discussion forum. My opinions are from that exercise and I stand by them; I am less than impressed with the 'Martian' as a literary opening. This was a direct result of me standing in the bookstore at a London railway terminus and reading the intro chapter. On the basis of my feeling for the book after that quick peek, I decided in that moment that the book was not for me. To be honest, I'd expected more and relayed my experience in that other thread.
That doesn't mean to say that the book doesn't blossom into something much better than the opening would suggest. In fact, I'm convinced that it does; as I say, I trust your judgement upon literature other than 'Tess of the d'Urbervilles,' without question.
Also, I feel that I should read the entire novel before I express another opinion because the discussion has opened up beyond the perceived quality (or not) of the intro and has widened into opinions based upon the structure and sum of the entire novel. In truth, Vern's premise for this discussion was based upon an entire novel and the reader's perseverance with a story they were not liking too much; and I weighed in with an opinion about an intro section and that without having read more than four or five pages.
Plus, I feel that I owe it to the author to at least buy a copy of his work if I'm going to discuss its merits or publically share my critique upon it.
That said, you remain entirety responsible for my enjoyment (or not) of said story.
I think it's a natural law or something right up there with gravity.
"Up there with gravity?" Newton would have a baby. I think we got us a case of oxymora breaking out!
vern wrote:I think it's a natural law or something right up there with gravity.
"Up there with gravity?" Newton would have a baby. I think we got us a case of oxymora breaking out!
Oh yeah, I'm quite sure. At least they both start with a nice guttural sound, lol. Take care. Vern
But the cup is hot?
Why? Does it depict Lady GaGa wearing nothing but a staple through her midriff?
So, on Mars and in Georgia you'd always say;
'A chilled glass of wine,' rather than 'a glass of chilled wine?'
and
'A cold can of beer,' rather than 'a can of cold beer?'
and
'A hot plate of food,' rather than 'a plate of hot food?'
and
'A full room of people,' rather than 'a room full of people?'
and
'A steeple with a church', rather than 'A church with a steeple.'
and
a 'knocker on a door' rather than a 'doorknocker?'
Are you a cart horse or a horse and cart type? '
In my opinion, it is that degree of confusion which has led to you people eating nothing but this https://letsblogaboutamerica.files.word … oodusa.jpg
corra wrote:But the cup is hot?
Why? Does it depict Lady GaGa wearing nothing but a staple through her midriff?
So, on Mars and in Georgia you'd always say;
'A chilled glass of wine,' rather than 'a glass of chilled wine?'
and
'A cold can of beer,' rather than 'a can of cold beer?'
and
'A hot plate of food,' rather than 'a plate of hot food?'
and
'A full room of people,' rather than 'a room full of people?'
and
'A steeple with a church', rather than 'A church with a steeple.'
and
a 'knocker on a door' rather than a 'doorknocker?'
Are you a cart horse or a horse and cart type? '
In my opinion, it is that degree of confusion which has led to you people eating nothing but this https://letsblogaboutamerica.files.word … oodusa.jpg
A chilled glass of wine, a cold can of beer, and a hot plate of food are more commonly used in the US, though I do see your point. It makes far more sense when you say it the other way. As for the rest, a room full of people, a church with a steeple, and a doorknocker sound more correct to my American ear.
-Elisheva
So, on Mars and in Georgia you'd always say;
Not always! Sometimes I say you are this, as well as a dog-day cicada AND a parrot-toed pipjenny. 
[You should know that I also HIGHLY RECOMMEND this show. (Mom would let me stay home with her and watch this in syndication when I was sick. It's mighty cozy. You can get it at a good price used!)
Wow, memories! I think I saw this once. It was the episode when they struck oil and went off to live in Beverly Hills with a cool 40 year old teenager who loved his motorcycle and their cousin Daisy who owned but only one pair of hot-pants.
I'm sure I watched it with my mother too; only, I think I may have been a foetus at the time. Although, I'm sure it was that episode which turned me from the television to books.
By "jaded" I of course meant "predisposed to like it." I don't know why I said "jaded."
Don't worry. The meaning of words don't actually matter. It is what you actually meant but didn't say that is impotent.
The odd wrong worm in the wrong place is neither hear nor their. I got what it was you were getting at 
corra wrote:But the cup is hot?
Why? Does it depict Lady GaGa wearing nothing but a staple through her midriff?
So, on Mars and in Georgia you'd always say;
'A chilled glass of wine,' rather than 'a glass of chilled wine?'
and
'A cold can of beer,' rather than 'a can of cold beer?'
and
'A hot plate of food,' rather than 'a plate of hot food?'
and
'A full room of people,' rather than 'a room full of people?'
and
'A steeple with a church', rather than 'A church with a steeple.'
and
a 'knocker on a door' rather than a 'doorknocker?'
Are you a cart horse or a horse and cart type? '
In my opinion, it is that degree of confusion which has led to you people eating nothing but this https://letsblogaboutamerica.files.word … oodusa.jpg
I wouldn't say any of those things, but I might say:
A bottle of wine from the cooler and two glasses, please
An ice cold beer
A hot bowl of soup or a cold watermelon or just, Food, I'm hungry
A crowded room or the room is too crowded
The church puts on a good steeple chase
A door-bell or the door has/had an antique knocker
Take care. Vern
I kind of buy what you are saying and normally I trust your judgement above my own.
I hadn't realized. Then you should definitely read Fifty Shades of Grey next. I have read it and found it titillating. There is a gripping work called The Faerie Queene by Edmund Spenser which I feel certain you would enjoy. The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire might make good bedtime reading. And over the summer you might dip into Clarissa by Samuel Richardson. All are my personal favorites. If you have time over the holidays I recommend The History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides, and you mustn't pass up the latest release of the Twilight series: it has new scenes and perspectives all through it. Good for a winter morning!
I'm not all tied up in The Martian, Dilbert. It's pop fiction, and it certainly isn't clinging to me eternally as some fine literature does. I wasn't trying to shame you with my family anecdotes yesterday. I was just sharing some of what went into the read for me beyond a sense of the structure.
I agree it's probably better to assess the structure after you've read the whole book. I'd love to discuss after you read? (I don't have a copy of my own, so I'll have to trust your remarks!) I don't think your ideas on the writing are at all off. Sometimes I can overlook the structure when the story (for me) is strong enough, especially in a work intended more for entertainment than style. I think this story did a great job building on the suspense, and you don't really get to see that fairly in the early chapters. I also feel that Mark's character (your interest in who he is at the start of the tale) is displayed through his actions as the book unfolds. I've said that the epistolary style forgives a lot of your objections (like the back-story chunk to start), but that's just my opinion. I didn't study the thing, and I read it in snatches at night right before I fell asleep. So I probably missed a lot. x
If you don't end up liking it, it's probably still a good mission for learning! The seeing what not to do.
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