1 (edited by Norm d'Plume 2015-05-27 05:31:40)

Topic: Creating an ideal world for conservative Christians.

What follows are key questions I have trying to create an ideal fictional world for conservative Christians. I'm not expecting anyone to answer all of my questions, but I wanted to put this up so that there is a single thread to capture the conversation. One common thread through many of these questions is the extent to which an ideal Christian government should be involved in society vs. the role of the church.

Although this is not specifically a Christian story, it ultimately reaffirms faith. But it's going to be a dark and difficult road.

As I've mentioned in other posts, one of my characters, Joseph, grew up on a highly religious world, New Bethlehem. In the current draft, I describe it as a fundamentalist Christian world, where people two millennia from now go in order to practice their deep faith in peace among like-minded individuals. That includes a belief in the inerrancy of the Bible. I'm considering modifying my fictional world to encompass other conservative Christians in addition to fundamentalists. Provides for more diversity of opinions in that society that should help propel the story.

By way of additional background, Joseph begins to hear God talking to him at age four and, because of his beliefs, never questions the reality of who he is hearing. His mother assures him it's just dreams or an imaginary friend until Joseph learns to stop talking about it. He spends twelve years growing up talking to the Lord every day. He does eventually learn about mental illness, but dismisses the possibility. He's absolutely certain that his God is the same one that spoke to Noah and Moses.

That's when Joseph's life begins to unravel. God asks Joseph to create a new religion that increasingly upends all of Joseph's ideas about Christianity. God's stated purpose for this request is to save an increasingly violent galaxy from the Apocalypse using a new religion that will sweep the galaxy like a tidal wave, ultimately returning mankind to paradise.

Joseph's been put into a nearly impossible position. Option 1 is to give up on the voice in his head as never having been real, take the throne after his mother, and live out a quiet life on his homeworld, trusting that God will take care of the galaxy. Option 2 is to continue to believe in the voice in his head and follow it wherever it leads to save a galaxy on the verge of self-destruction, an option that eventually leads Joseph into slavery, prison, and unimaginable personal loss. Is he the future version of Job?

Having written about 3/4 of my 2nd draft, I realize in hindsight that Joseph is too secular to be the future king that his people would expect him to be. Joseph can quote chapter and verse as well as anyone, but doesn't live it the way he should. I want conservative values in my next draft to really seep into Joseph's bones. I want his well-intended decisions to lead him so far astray that, live or die, he can never be the same person again. Next draft, he also has to deal with being a deeply closeted self-loathing homosexual.

Following are some of my open questions. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

1 - New Bethlehem expects people to be self-reliant, not expecting a handout from government. How far should I take that? What would conservative Christians do to support the sick and the poor without making them dependent upon government? I've currently written it so that the sick/poor live in "havens" created around major churches, which provide support through charitable contributions. In this case, the churches struggle because there are always people in need.

2 - In an ideal conservative world, would there be universal health care funded through taxes? Medicare and old-age pensions from the government? Mandatory unemployment insurance? Universal daycare with the expectation that able-bodied adults work? Would there be welfare?

3 - What amount should the "haves" of New Bethlehem give to the "have-nots"? 10% of income? More from the rich than from the poor? Mandatory or optional? If the church is unable to support those in the havens, should government step in and use tax dollars to fund what politicians deem necessary? That's how entitlements got started. What role should the Prosperity Gospel play in the ideal world I'm trying to create? Is it heresy?

4 - Would divorce be allowed? What if it involves an abusive spouse? If you imprison the spouse, there goes at least one income. Where does the remaining spouse turn if there isn't sufficient income to support the family?

5 - What societal punishments should there be for violating the various Ten Commandments? For example, what should happen to those who don't keep the Sabbath or use the Lord's name in vain?

6 - Would there be corporeal punishment for some behaviors? Kids getting spanked at Future-Mart? Adults getting caned? What about capital punishment? Under what circumstances (murder, treason, child molestation, ...)? What about older practices documented in the Bible such as stoning? Should New Bethlehem rule one out but not the other? I use public hangings in my current draft. I figured if society's going to kill people, it would be very public, so everyone once again learns the lesson it's supposed to teach. I extended that logic to broadcast hangings live across the planet.

7 - From a fairness perspective, should the state be required to provide the same financial resources to defendants as it does to prosecutors? Not everyone can afford O.J. Simpson's defense team.

8 - What should be the minimum age for capital punishment? Some crimes by juveniles are so atrocious they get transferred to adult court, with the possibility of a death sentence. The youngest person ever sentenced to death in the U.S. was 10 when sentenced (killed at 19). The youngest person actually executed was 14, by electrocution. I went with 14 for the scene as currently written, for his role in treason that could have caused the overthrow of New Bethlehem by its enemies.

9 - Obviously, abortion is out. Would abortion be allowed if a pregnant mother's life is at stake? What about birth control? The Catholic Church says no. Who takes care of unwanted children? What if there aren't enough willing adoptive parents? The government again?

10 - How should New Bethlehem intervene in the growing instability between the two major powers in the galaxy (one of which it is a member of)? New Bethlehem's population is 100 million people in a galaxy of tens of billions, but is a resource-rich world and constantly threatened with conquest, so it  spends staggering amounts on defense. Should it be interventionist, near the vanguard of all galactic disputes, thereby building and maintaining influence that may help it survive, or should it step back, allowing more powerful worlds to lead, trying not to draw attention to itself from among its potential enemies?

11 - How would this society appproach environmental questions like Big Oil vs Global Warming? Should the government use tax dollars to provide subsidies for oil drilling, solar energy, both, or neither? Should the government provide subsidies for farmers to support farms in bad years? A subsidy for one person may be seen as pork to another. And subsidies have a bad habit of becoming permanent because politicians want to get re-elected.

12 - Should women on my world submit to their husbands? This comes up primarily because the current monarch is a queen and her husband is a prince, like Queen Elizabeth & Prince Phillip. Whose decision should dominate in such a relationship when the Queen disagrees with the Prince about a matter of state? Like Queen Elizabeth, my story's queen is a legitimate descedant of King David.

13 - How should New Bethlehem deal with homosexuality? Should it be illegal? What about those who claim to have been born that way? Should they be required to undergo reparative therapy if the parents want it? Since Joseph will be homosexual, is it a sin if he has homosexual thoughts even if he resists any temptation to act on them?

Thanks in advance for all your help.
Dirk

Re: Creating an ideal world for conservative Christians.

1.  New Bethlehem expects people to be self-reliant, not expecting a handout from government. How far should I take that? What would conservative Christians do to support the sick and the poor without making them dependent upon government? I've currently written it so that the sick/poor live in "havens" created around major churches, which provide support through charitable contributions. In this case, the churches struggle because there are always people in need.<< I might have the churches requiring the people in the havens to work to grow their own food. Thinking about Paul saying basically, "If you don't work, you don't eat."

2. - In an ideal conservative world, would there be universal health care funded through taxes? Medicare and old-age pensions from the government? Mandatory unemployment insurance? Universal daycare with the expectation that able-bodied adults work? Would there be welfare?<<If the "church" ministered to the needs of its people, there would be no need for welfare. (ideally). I would make the church desperately trying to meet what they consider the Biblical mandate to care for the widow and the orphan, but struggling b/c of the widespread poverty. Still, they don't want "government" handouts b/c they would no longer be a separation of church and state.

3. What amount should the "haves" of New Bethlehem give to the "have-nots"? 10% of income? More from the rich than from the poor? Mandatory or optional? If the church is unable to support those in the havens, should government step in and use tax dollars to fund what politicians deem necessary? That's how entitlements got started. What role should the Prosperity Gospel play in the ideal world I'm trying to create? Is it heresy?<<See above answer

4. - Would divorce be allowed? What if it involves an abusive spouse? If you imprison the spouse, there goes at least one income. Where does the remaining spouse turn if there isn't sufficient income to support the family?<<Don't get me started here. In my personal experience with fundamental and ultra-conservative church, women have no rights. Many even act as if it's all right for the husband to beat his wife if she's not "submissive." Just saying, it's a chauvinistic, woman-belittling existence.  Most likely, the wife would be expected to stay home and raise the kids. You can go and read my piece, that I think you've already ready.

5. - What societal punishments should there be for violating the various Ten Commandments?<< Read up on how those were punished in the Bible. I'd try to stick close to that. Deuteronomy might give you good info.

6. - Would there be corporeal punishment for some behaviors? Kids getting spanked at Future-Mart? Adults getting caned? What about capital punishment? Under what circumstances (murder, treason, child molestation, ...)? What about older practices documented in the Bible such as stoning? Should New Bethlehem rule one out but not the other? I use public hangings in my current draft. I figured if society's going to kill people, it should be very public, so everyone once again learns the lesson it's supposed to teach. I extended that logic to make the hangings live across the planet.<< I say, yes, to the corporal punishment. Read up on Puritan practices.

7. - From a fairness perspective, should the state be required to provide the same financial resources to defendants as it does to prosecutors? Not everyone can afford O.J. Simpson's defense team.<< Not a religious issue. I say, make the defense attorney a state appointed position. for every defendant.

8. - What should be the minimum age for capital punishment? Some crimes by juveniles are so atrocious they get transferred to adult court, with the possibility of a death sentence. The youngest person ever sentenced to death in the U.S. was 10 when sentenced (killed at 19). The youngest person actually executed was 14, by electrocution. I went with 14 for the scene as currently written, for his role in treason that could have caused the overthrow of New Bethlehem by its enemies. << Bar mitzvah is 13. In many societies that is considered adult. I think 14 is good.

9. Obviously, abortion is out. Would abortion be allowed if a pregnant mother's life is at stake? What about birth control? The Catholic Church says no. Who takes care of unwanted children? What if there aren't enough willing adoptive parents? The government again?<< Id say that the father would need to petition the court if his wife might die. And, maybe these folks can find some form of natural birth control. Then, again, I'd advise about tackling all social issues in one story.

10.  How should New Bethlehem intervene in the growing instability between the two major powers in the galaxy (one of which it is a member of)? New Bethlehem's population is 100 million people in a galaxy of tens of billions, but is a resource-rich world and constantly threatened with conquest, so it  spends staggering amounts on defense. Should it be interventionist, near the vanguard of all galactic disputes, thereby building and maintaining influence that may help it survive, or should it step back, allowing more powerful worlds to lead, trying not to draw attention to itself from among its potential enemies?<< The government would go with the one that would benefit them the most or fall most in line with their beliefs.

11. - How would this society appproach environmental questions like Big Oil vs Global Warming? Should the government use tax dollars to provide subsidies for oil drilling, solar energy, both, or neither? Should the government provide subsidies for farmers to support farms in bad years? A subsidy for one person may be seen as pork to another. And subsidies have a bad habit of becoming permanent because politicians want to get re-elected.<< Another social issue. I say make them good stewards of what they have and willing to conserve if it doesn't cause hardship.

12. - Should women on my world submit to their husbands? This comes up primarily because the current monarch is a queen and her husband is a prince, like Queen Elizabeth & Prince Phillip. Whose decision should dominate in such a relationship when the Queen disagrees with the Prince about a matter of state? Like Queen Elizabeth, my story's queen is a legitimate descendant of King David. <<Make this an ongoing argument. Make the Queen actually vocal about this issue. See what I said about women earlier. And do remember how God raised up Deborah and Esther.

13. - How should New Bethlehem deal with homosexuality? Should it be illegal? What about those who claim to have been born that way? Should they be required to undergo reparative therapy if the parents want it? Since Joseph will be homosexual, is it a sin if he has homosexual thoughts even if he resists any temptation to act on them?<<If this is a fundamentalist/conservative world, they would stone them. It would be a crime and one punishable by death.  Joseph would soooooooooooooo try to hide his sexual orientation. You could make it so that they are allowed to live, but outcast to something akin to a leper colony.

Just my thoughts. Hope it helps.

Funny how you have 13 things!!!

Re: Creating an ideal world for conservative Christians.

Thank you for taking the time for such a detailed response. The numbering was a good idea. I went back and did the same for my initial post.

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

1.  New Bethlehem expects people to be self-reliant, not expecting a handout from government. How far should I take that? What would conservative Christians do to support the sick and the poor without making them dependent upon government? I've currently written it so that the sick/poor live in "havens" created around major churches, which provide support through charitable contributions. In this case, the churches struggle because there are always people in need.<< I might have the churches requiring the people in the havens to work to grow their own food. Thinking about Paul saying basically, "If you don't work, you don't eat."

I like this, although it will be difficult to carve out plots of land in the inner cities to grow food. That's usually done on a large scale in the country. Perhaps they have to take a daily shuttle to the farms. Also, what about people who can't work due to high unemployment, disability, or age?


2. - In an ideal conservative world, would there be universal health care funded through taxes? Medicare and old-age pensions from the government? Mandatory unemployment insurance? Universal daycare with the expectation that able-bodied adults work? Would there be welfare?<<If the "church" ministered to the needs of its people, there would be no need for welfare. (ideally). I would make the church desperately trying to meet what they consider the Biblical mandate to care for the widow and the orphan, but struggling b/c of the widespread poverty. Still, they don't want "government" handouts b/c they would no longer be a separation of church and state.

Your answer has led me toward an interesting change. It will be a Christian governent. That makes it more difficult to answer some of these questions, since where does the government's responsibility end and the Church's aid begin.


3. What amount should the "haves" of New Bethlehem give to the "have-nots"? 10% of income? More from the rich than from the poor? Mandatory or optional? If the church is unable to support those in the havens, should government step in and use tax dollars to fund what politicians deem necessary? That's how entitlements got started. What role should the Prosperity Gospel play in the ideal world I'm trying to create? Is it heresy?<<See above answer

See above response. :-)  What about the sick or the elderly?


4. - Would divorce be allowed? What if it involves an abusive spouse? If you imprison the spouse, there goes at least one income. Where does the remaining spouse turn if there isn't sufficient income to support the family?<<Don't get me started here. In my personal experience with fundamental and ultra-conservative church, women have no rights. Many even act as if it's all right for the husband to beat his wife if she's not "submissive." Just saying, it's a chauvinistic, woman-belittling existence.  Most likely, the wife would be expected to stay home and raise the kids. You can go and read my piece, that I think you've already read.

I'd be very interested to know what the experience is of other women.


5. - What societal punishments should there be for violating the various Ten Commandments? For example. not keeping the Sabbath or taking the Lord's name in vain. << Read up on how those were punished in the Bible. I'd try to stick close to that. Deuteronomy might give you good info.

I'd be interested to know what other members of the group believe.


6. - Would there be corporeal punishment for some behaviors? Kids getting spanked at Future-Mart? Adults getting caned? What about capital punishment? Under what circumstances (murder, treason, child molestation, ...)? What about older practices documented in the Bible such as stoning? Should New Bethlehem rule one out but not the other? I use public hangings in my current draft. I figured if society's going to kill people, it should be very public, so everyone once again learns the lesson it's supposed to teach. I extended that logic to make the hangings live across the planet.<< I say, yes, to the corporal punishment. Read up on Puritan practices.

Are we talking about just corporeal punishment of kids? What about caning of adults?


7. - From a fairness perspective, should the state be required to provide the same financial resources to defendants as it does to prosecutors? Not everyone can afford O.J. Simpson's defense team.<< Not a religious issue. I say, make the defense attorney a state appointed position. for every defendant.

It falls under my attempt to separate Repulican beliefs (smaller government) from conservative Christian beliefs, which may not always align. Some court cases are incredibly expensive (millions of $); giving defendants access to those same resources would double the cost to society.


8. - What should be the minimum age for capital punishment? Some crimes by juveniles are so atrocious they get transferred to adult court, with the possibility of a death sentence. The youngest person ever sentenced to death in the U.S. was 10 when sentenced (killed at 19). The youngest person actually executed was 14, by electrocution. I went with 14 for the scene as currently written, for his role in treason that could have caused the overthrow of New Bethlehem by its enemies. << Bar mitzvah is 13. In many societies that is considered adult. I think 14 is good.

Other opinions?


9. Obviously, abortion is out. Would abortion be allowed if a pregnant mother's life is at stake? What about birth control? The Catholic Church says no. Who takes care of unwanted children? What if there aren't enough willing adoptive parents? The government again?<< Id say that the father would need to petition the court if his wife might die. And, maybe these folks can find some form of natural birth control. Then, again, I'd advise about tackling all social issues in one story.

What about prayer for the life of the mother and baby, rather than the court? I won't be tackling all of these issues in one story, but I want to understand the conservative Christian mindset on as many issues as possible, so I can accurately portary those that I need.


10.  How should New Bethlehem intervene in the growing instability between the two major powers in the galaxy (one of which it is a member of)? New Bethlehem's population is 100 million people in a galaxy of tens of billions, but is a resource-rich world and constantly threatened with conquest, so it  spends staggering amounts on defense. Should it be interventionist, near the vanguard of all galactic disputes, thereby building and maintaining influence that may help it survive, or should it step back, allowing more powerful worlds to lead, trying not to draw attention to itself from among its potential enemies?<< The government would go with the one that would benefit them the most or fall most in line with their beliefs.

You know my story better than anyone here, Janet. Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain declared peace in our time right before Hitler rolled into Poland. I'm leaning toward making them interventionist in my next draft, but would like to know if anyone has a different opinion. Turn the other cheek?


11. - How would this society appproach environmental questions like Big Oil vs Global Warming? Should the government use tax dollars to provide subsidies for oil drilling, solar energy, both, or neither? Should the government provide subsidies for farmers to support farms in bad years? A subsidy for one person may be seen as pork to another. And subsidies have a bad habit of becoming permanent because politicians want to get re-elected.<< Another social issue. I say make them good stewards of what they have and willing to conserve if it doesn't cause hardship.

That doesn't really answer the question about subsidies. Who gets subsidies and who doesn't? Do we have lobbyists pushing their agendas in a government overrun by money? Also, this is going to be a Christian govenrment, so social issues are heavily intermingled with religion on this world.


12. - Should women on my world submit to their husbands? This comes up primarily because the current monarch is a queen and her husband is a prince, like Queen Elizabeth & Prince Phillip. Whose decision should dominate in such a relationship when the Queen disagrees with the Prince about a matter of state? Like Queen Elizabeth, my story's queen is a legitimate descendant of King David. <<Make this an ongoing argument. Make the Queen actually vocal about this issue. See what I said about women earlier. And do remember how God raised up Deborah and Esther.

Any other opinions on this?


13. - How should New Bethlehem deal with homosexuality? Should it be illegal? What about those who claim to have been born that way? Should they be required to undergo reparative therapy if the parents want it? Since Joseph will be homosexual, is it a sin if he has homosexual thoughts even if he resists any temptation to act on them?<<If this is a fundamentalist/conservative world, they would stone them. It would be a crime and one punishable by death.  Joseph would soooooooooooooo try to hide his sexual orientation. You could make it so that they are allowed to live, but outcast to something akin to a leper colony.

I'd like to hear other views as to whether stoning/killing would make a return for homosexuality. There's no question that he's going to hide it, but first he has to realize he is one. This will be a major part of Joseph's character arc, so I'd like to get his society's response right.


Thanks again for the detailed response.
Dirk

Re: Creating an ideal world for conservative Christians.

I think just for the sake of a wee bit of evolution of mores that they would treat gays like they have a disease, like a leper, and ship them off to live in a colony of sorts, but it's a really hard existence. One reason Christian keeps his sexuality under wraps. And this would be the step after they try to realign thinking by some sort of "therapy."