Re: Unbar's Thread

Hello Everyone,  Secret of the Master, book 2 in my series is now available on kindle and in 2 days will be going up on paperback.  This is the book I workshopped here as Secret of Murinar.  I would like to ask a favor.  For those who read it here could you please go give it a review?  I am running a bunch of promotional marketing in the next few days and only have one review as of right now.  Thanks in advance and here is the link: https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Master-Bo … the+master

Re: Unbar's Thread

As I mentioned in a previous post, I am diving headlong into marketing my books starting with a subscriber list.  From what I have learned, the only way to make a living as an indie writer is to build your subscriber list as big as you can get it and then keep them engaged with your work.  I started my list a little over 2 weeks ago and as of this morning I just passed over 400 subscribers.  I am giving away book 1 as motivation for signing up.  I started by posting the news to my 1,000 Facebook friends then tweeting to my 1,400 followers.  This started bringing in around 4 or 5 a day for about a week.  Then this week I have entered a cross promo with 160 other fantasy and sci fi authors and my list has just exploded.  I got more than 100 just yesterday.  The promo runs to the 20th so I can wait to see where I end up by then.  I will keep you guys up to date on my progress as I navigate the business of writing.  My goal is to go full time with it as quickly as I can.

Re: Unbar's Thread

Pulls out the pompoms and shakes them at you. "Gooooooooo, Unbar!"

Re: Unbar's Thread

Thought I would post another update.  My group promotion just ended and the results are pretty amazing.  I ended up with over 700 downloads/sign ups to my newsletter, sold a dozen books and got a new review on Amazon.  I would think if I ever want to go the traditional publishing route having my own subscriber list with thousands of fans might get me out of the slush pile. A guy can hope, right?

On a related note I am writing a prequel short story for my newsletter only which I will workshop here before putting up more of book 3.  I will let everyone know when it is up.

Re: Unbar's Thread

Since you didn't partake in our conversation about google searches, realize that your title can be googled while on this site. Since you are actively publishing, make sure that you don't use the same title or break into an abbreviation so that it can't be hunted down with three or four keywords.

Re: Unbar's Thread

amy s wrote:

Since you didn't partake in our conversation about google searches, realize that your title can be googled while on this site. Since you are actively publishing, make sure that you don't use the same title or break into an abbreviation so that it can't be hunted down with three or four keywords.

Thanks amy, I'll post a working title here so it isn't easily gettable.  That's a word, right?

Re: Unbar's Thread

I tried Googling the series title and nothing popped other than the amazon link, so good job. I tried the key words of 'Wor*d of B**ks, Ame*ia, and *ommy *ravers, so you are looking pretty safe in your choice of names. As opposed to K, who won't know the actual spelling of his character's names if he tried.

Re: Unbar's Thread

I mostly got links to covercritics.com.

He has the advantage that his main character's name overlaps another semi-famous name (I didn't have that - too many made-up names) and he's using a pseudonym as his author name here. Two great combinations for evading the mighty google.

Re: Unbar's Thread

I wish I could say I planned all that but I'm not that smart.

Re: Unbar's Thread

I just published my short story prequel to my series.  It is called Escape.  I would love to get your eyes on it.  I will be sending this out to my subscribers next week and entering it in a cross promo with 100 other fantasy authors.  My list has grown to over 1100 people now.

Re: Unbar's Thread

Got it.

62 (edited by Unbar 2017-01-24 23:17:05)

Re: Unbar's Thread

Got a review back from a fellow author basically excoriating me for what an amateur I am.  It is hard to take these things in context and not get defensive.  I know criticism is helpful should assist me in improving.  The problem is, what to take with a grain of salt and what to internalize.  I do appreciate the time and effort of anyone who reads my stories.   Anyway, I thought I would post the comments in case anyone else can learn from them. 
This email is difficult to write. I commend you for the task before you that you have begun: two books out and a third nearing completion in what looks to be an epic tale. Ironically, it's the kind of story I like to read, although I prefer a female protagonist. Since you have 8 daughters, I'm surprised at your choice of a male protagonist.

But your book is not one I would read after checking out the Look Inside feature. I don't know any other way to say this, so I'll just blurt it out. I never got past chapter two. Robert, there is so much wrong with your book. Of course, there is a great deal that's right, too. But the errors (and we're not just talking about typos) are everywhere. I am attaching the Word doc where you can see my comments and "corrections." Some things might be a matter of personal taste, but if I were you, I would enroll in a writing class at a community college. That way you will see that this isn't just my opinion. Or spring for an editor from, say, BookBaby. You don't have to use them to publish.

Be aware there are 4 types of book editing: (1) The Big-Picture Edit (developmental, structural or substantive editing), (2) The Paragraph-Level Edit (stylistic or line editing), (3) The Sentence-Level Edit (copyediting), and (4) The Word-Level Edit (proofreading).

Frankly, many of the contextual errors you make are those made by most beginning writers. And anyone who reads a lot of books will see your inexperience right off. In part, the following is WHY I couldn't ready anymore. Most editors would have stopped on page one. This isn't a complete list. (I didn't want to totally blow you out of the water or just piss you off.) Let's just say it's like the top layer of what needs fixing.

1) Using VERY to modify words that are strong enough to stand alone. Very is a throw-away word and has little to no meaning.
2) Using descriptions and actions as though they are dialogue tags.
3) Using too many dialogue tags when only two people are "on stage" talking. If your characters have unique "voices" we should be able to tell who is talking, either by WHAT they say or HOW they say it.
4) Using tags other than "said," "replied," "asked," and "responded." Tags, when you MUST use them, should be invisible, so the reader doesn't even notice them. Throwing in a "he queried" or a "she chided" suddenly turns a spotlight on them. Not a good idea.
5) Using 2 spaces between sentences. I know most of us learned to hit the space bar twice, but such things evolve over time. We use fewer commas now and since printing is digital, all those extra spaces add up.
6) Your book is longer than the norm. Yes, the Harry Potter books were huge after the first couple. But you do not have command of the English language quite like JK Rowling, who is brilliant at putting words together on a page to hold the interest of her readers--even young readers.
7) Your characters, in the first two chapters, are cardboard. They have zero personality, except (sort of) the black girl with the ponytail on the side of her head that your protagonist mentally criticizes, BUT she is simply bad-tempered. Your protagonist is your first-person storyteller, and he's not any different than any other adolescent male, although I love the fact that he LOVES to read. But one trait does not build a believable character.

You're probably saying, "Well, if you'd read the whole book, you'd know." But your reader wants to know and root for your point-of-view character almost from the get-go. I'm quite sure you know this character yourself from the inside out. The trouble is, it's not on the page. That's the hardest lesson to learn. Getting what you see in your head actually on the page so that your reader sees and hears and feels what you do is what it's all about.

I wish you well on this. And I will not be reviewing your book so as not to skew your review average. I've read that even a 3-star takes you down quite a bit. I have the .mobi version, which I will load onto my Kindle. And I got Book 1 since it's free. Maybe if I read them without my editing hat on I will forgive some of your writer faux pas. Who knows?

Again, I wish you well. You have accomplished what 83% of Americans surveyed said they wanted to do "someday." You've already done that TWICE. Now you just need to get the words right. All the best.


P.S. - The people who tell you how wonderful your writing is will likely NOT be writers. How do I know this? In a former life, I was a singer. People always, and I do mean always, told me how wonderful I sang. I knew, however, none of them were singers. None of them had a clue if it was good or not. They only knew that they LIKED what I did. If I was on top of my game, they wouldn't have known the difference if I'd fallen flat on my face musically. The ones whose opinions mattered were other singers. THEY knew what was good and what wasn't.

So take this writer's words for how they are meant, to encourage, to teach and to help you become the writer you are meant to be.

Re: Unbar's Thread

Hi Unbar... you're doing okay. Deep breaths.

The nicest thing anyone can do for you is tell how why they didn't like your story. What you don't want is tons of feedback that it's average or good only to release and have a readersip silence and not know why. Every negative comment makes you more powerful. In so doing, a negative comment is not negative at all but a strengthening comment.

Having read book 1 of Tommy's journey, allow me to weigh in on her points

1) Use of modifiers. I didn't notice this. I'd say it's not that much of an issue. My advice re: editing hasn't changed. Your editor has a vested interest in saying nice things, even if she's unaware of this interest. You're not going to get objective edits from her. Also, everyone on TNBW is falsifying our reviews including me. The only honest reviewer I've ever seen here is Robert Stockington, and they ran him off the site in a day. CFB is close, but he tries too hard to be unreasonable.

2) Descriptions as dialogue tags. I used to be guilty of this - still don't see an issue. I'm saying I don't have a problem with your usage which is 100% of the reason you should ignore me.

wait... what?

Pretend 4 people read your story once it hits market. #1 & #2 like it. #3 is so-so. #4 doesn't like it. 9 times out of 10 it's #4 that leaves the review. You're not writing to please #1 and #2... you're writing to not displease #4. Therefore, even though descriptions as dialogue don't bother me, if they're considered bad by a quarter of the market, you might consider giving it a close look.

(A lot of people have attacked my opinion on this saying "It's my story. I'll write it how I like". This is commendable, but I want you to sell a million copies. 3 million. A billion million.)

3) Too many dialogue tags

I struggle with this on a daily basis. No matter which way I go, someone says not enough or too many. At this time, I lean towards too many deliberately, because no one really wants to read a story where they don't know who's talking. Whereas at least if too many, you know what's goig on even if you don't like the writing

4) Fancy tags

I'm guilty of this too. I'm always reminding myself to stick with the he said / she said.

5) Two spaces after period

I can't recall if I commented this when I read your book 1. Not an issue for me, but see the rule of 1-in-4 above

6) Book too long

Didn't notice the length in book 1. I did notice in book 2, but I was certain to highight the parts in 2 that made me feelthis way.

7) Flat characters

Oooh, this is a difficult one. It's their very flatness that makes them fascinating later in book 1 when they pop. Especially the mother-brother. I like them in all their initial flatness. You won't often hear me say that in my reviews. I can see your reviewer's point that they seem generic and no one wants to wait for them to fill out. That's the problem with today's society - no attention spans.

overall:

Glean what you can from this. Don't need to try to pick what's usable - your instinct will tell you that. Remember she's trying to help you and she belongs to group #4. This is rare and a blessing.

-K

Re: Unbar's Thread

One way to avoid the overuse of dialogue tags is to have the speakers say the other person's name from time to time in the dialogue. Also, you don't need them if the context makes it obvious (e.g. One person is mad, the other is trying to mollify them. In that case the dialogue should make it obvious.)

As for fancy tags, when they contribute value to the dialogue, I use them. Mostly I stick with said, asked, and replied, and even those can usually be eliminated. For example: "That hurts," John said, wincing. becomes: John winced. "That hurts."

65 (edited by njc 2017-01-24 20:59:52)

Re: Unbar's Thread

I begin by suggesting you remove the other author's signature/name.

As you say, it's hard to take words like this as helpful, but the critique is not mean-spirited, and the point about not writing the three-star review is a gesture of good faith, as much as it must surely sting.  ('must surely'--meaningless redundancy in modifiers smile )

I suggest you approach this with strength, patience (with her and yourself) and humility.  True humility knows that you always have much to learn and many things you can learn from.  Strength carries you through the hurt.

(Someday maybe one of you can quote this advice back to me.)

How many readers are as exacting as she is?  I suspect very few.  But getting measured against a high standard can help you.

Ironically, it's the kind of story I like to read, although I prefer a female protagonist. Since you have 8 daughters, I'm surprised at your choice of a male protagonist.

It's unfortunate that she mentioned this.  It's not a substantive criticism; it's a statement of reader preference, and it can add to the emotional stress caused by the substantive criticism that follows.  (And let this be a lesson to me!  I sometimes do the same thing.)  Put it out of your mind; it is as if a reader said, "I do so like blue-eyed heroes."

... but if I were you, I would enroll in a writing class at a community college ...

Phrased in a most unfortunate way.  Perhaps it needed to be said, but, "If I were you ..." is a stinging phrase that is too damned easy to use.  I'm not saying her points have no merit, though I'd be chary of expecting a community college course to offer just what I need.  Her other suggestions here do make sense.  I'll bear them in mind myself.

(By the way, have you thanked her?  You may have to do it with tears in your eyes, but you might make a friend.)

Be aware there are 4 types of book editing: (1) The Big-Picture Edit (developmental, structural or substantive editing), (2) The Paragraph-Level Edit (stylistic or line editing), (3) The Sentence-Level Edit (copyediting), and (4) The Word-Level Edit (proofreading).

Yes, and her comments cross these lines.  Moreover, her exacting standards on copyediting and proofreading may keep her from enjoying a great story.  Still, you'd like her to buy it, so her exacting preferences matter.

Frankly, many of the contextual errors you make are those made by most beginning writers.  ...

1) Using VERY to modify words that are strong enough to stand alone. Very is a throw-away word and has little to no meaning.

This may be true, in which case we-your-TNBW-reviewers have not been working hard enough for you.  But make allowances for a character's mental voice coloring sections written in that character's PoV.

2) Using descriptions and actions as though they are dialogue tags.

Pushing writers to beats instead of tags is a common thing here.  We now have one pro's opinion on the matter.  We've also had contrary opinions.

3) Using too many dialogue tags when only two people are "on stage" talking. If your characters have unique "voices" we should be able to tell who is talking, either by WHAT they say or HOW they say it.

And yet ... as a reader I find I prefer to have more tags than the 'best advice' says.  Maybe I'm not sure yet of my characters' voices.

Let me digress.  There are several components to character voice, and there is some linkage between them:
1) Word choice (and stock phrases).  (Note also that real speakers DO repeat words; in searching our vocabulary as we construct our sentences, we find most readily the words most recently used.)
2) Grammar preferences
3) Coherence of speech (topics and ideas)
4) The character's concerns and emotive state at the moment, toward first person, second person, and perhaps toward third persons.
5) The character's intent in speaking.

The first two are pretty much fixed, unless your character is drunk or overwhelmed with anger.  The rest vary to some degree with the circumstances of the moment.

A reviewer who is fixated on the first one or two points will miss excellence in the others.

Erle Stanley Gardiner's characters have very similar voices on point 1 and especially point 2.  We see variation most in points four and five.  Gardiner was a successful writer, who turned the courtroom drama into a popular subgenre and made it his own.  His plotting and clue-laying were superb.  He wrote from beginning to end with almost no editing, while switching from story to story to let his typists keep up with him.

So excellence in all five of those points (and any that I have missed) is not necessary, only very desirable.  And maybe if you clear a reader's minimum hurdles on all points, they will hang around to appreciate the points in which you excel.

4) Using tags other than "said," "replied," "asked," and "responded." Tags, when you MUST use them, should be invisible, so the reader doesn't even notice them. Throwing in a "he queried" or a "she chided" suddenly turns a spotlight on them. Not a good idea.

She's not alone in offering this criticism.  I would strike 'responded' from her list, and perhaps add 'added' and 'noted'.  Also, there are a few 'sound' tags that I consider valid, 'whispered' and 'shouted' among them.  Better writers than I have used 'purred' and similar words, even though we get criticized for them.  I suspect we use them where they are too easily noticed.

5) Using 2 spaces between sentences. I know most of us learned to hit the space bar twice, but such things evolve over time. We use fewer commas now and since printing is digital, all those extra spaces add up.

This lies between copyediting and production.  TNBW does knock the doubled spaces out, but goes inserting spaces into the HTML it generates.  (Makes me so med.)

6) Your book is longer than the norm. Yes, the Harry Potter books were huge after the first couple. But you do not have command of the English language quite like JK Rowling, who is brilliant at putting words together on a page to hold the interest of her readers--even young readers.

Was the modifier 'quite' quite necessary?

Snark aside, the norm varies by genre.  I didn't find your books too long by word or page.  If there's a criticism to be made, I think it's not on command of English, but on flow and structure.  These are my biggest weakness, so maybe I'm projecting.

7) Your characters, in the first two chapters, are cardboard. They have zero personality, except (sort of) the black girl with the ponytail on the side of her head that your protagonist mentally criticizes, BUT she is simply bad-tempered. Your protagonist is your first-person storyteller, and he's not any different than any other adolescent male, although I love the fact that he LOVES to read. But one trait does not build a believable character.

I disagree with your criitic.

But maybe we need to make things larger than life, like stage gestures, especially when we establish characters.  It's easy to fall into self-parody here.  (Again, a thing for me to take to heart.)

You're probably saying, "Well, if you'd read the whole book, you'd know." But your reader wants to know and root for your point-of-view character almost from the get-go.  ....

I could point again to Erle Stanley Gardiner, but she's right in general.  Whether the criticism applies to you is another question.

Have strength, and strike the signature from the quoted text.

Re: Unbar's Thread

Thanks everyone,  I put that up just after reading it so emotions and all that.  Since then I have cooled down, thanked her for caring enough to write to me and looked over her list carefully to decide what I will implement in trying to better my writing.  I have been so focused on the marketing side of things lately that it is easy to forget the craft.  It would be nice to make four copies of me but alas, I will just have to keep juggling. 

Character development and voice is perhaps my biggest worry.  I am least confident in this area of my writing than any other.  So having another author say I suck at it does cut to the core a bit.  She only read 2 chapters of book 2 so there is that.  And the point of Tommy is that he is a typical 15-year-old kid who crazy stuff happens to.  But I need the first 2 chapters to grab the reader's attention and if my characters are lacking, I need to fix it.

Re: Unbar's Thread

I learned to eliminate the two-space-hit after a period by clicking on 'show invisibles' on my Mac. There has to be an option for this on a Windows machine. Once you see the markings, it vastly improves your typing so that the mistakes don't happen in the beginning and you can see them to correct them if they already exist. If you do a 'find' and look for (.  ) and change it to (. ), then you only have to go back to the end of each sentence to correct the double spacing. (Except for a pass where you look for exclamation points or question marks. Those need to be corrected separately)

A lot of the criticism about your chapters is also about it being the second book. If she finds the characters to be 'cardboard' then it is worth it to spend a little bit of time on making the first couple chapters worth of characterizations stronger...the advantage of self-publishing. You can learn and improve the work after the initial release.

I'm neutral about the review. It was brutal...that is for sure. I think that the reviewer needs to learn how to function in polite society and recognize that this is a learning environment. Telling someone to take a creative writing class isn't a solution. Who knows what the person teaching the class wants to teach (realize that I took an EIGHT credit Creative-Writing class in college that was only about Black and African History. We wrote three things during the entire class) Identifying weaknesses alongside strengths is a better way of getting a point across. In education, you don't expose kids to 100% new material. You introduce it and build on old skills. There is some study out there that I remember...kids can get about 20% of material wrong without getting discouraged. In the review Miss Bomb-Pop gave you, I see about 10% compliment to approximately 90% negative. No wonder you were discouraged.

In the Beta read I just finished, I told the author about my three-strike rule. Once I saw three glaring novice mistakes, I showed her where I thought an editor would put down her book, knowing that the mistakes had to be everywhere throughout the manuscript. The bad news was that she lasted two pages. The good news is that the things I noticed were easily fixed and had nothing to do with the content.

Bomb-Pop seems to be a punctuation nazi. And she couldn't get past the technical to enjoy the story. That is the key take-home from her review, I think.  There will be others who take her stance. Since most of her critique is about technical issues (tags, spacing, and length of the story), these are all easily fixed/ thinned. The only exception is the characterizations in the beginning of the second book, and that is also something you can address in a comfortable period of time (I think).

Take heart. Take what seems correct from her review and make it your own. Discard what you don't agree with. Let your skin be a bit tougher. You want to be a pro writer and support your family from this series, so your skill level at this point in time isn't an end point. Your learning curve is just beginning.

I'm an optimist. I think this is within your reach.

FYI, Who was she? I want her to read my stuff and rip me a new bung-hole as well. Or is she floating around the site and dropping big flaming piles of poo all over everybody's business? Because I like a nice, cozy campfire.  Did she dare to post something? If that is the case, I'm going to review her back. When I get old, I wanna be more truthful. Maybe I'll just have to start...right...now:-)

Re: Unbar's Thread

I think Robert Stockington's review was the one that caused me to abort my first draft halfway through, not because he was blunt, but because he was right.

69

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Amy, I fear you have learned from the best.

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Damn right, Mr. Best.

71

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You must be confusing me with Rocky Snarkingham

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No. No confusion. Take credit where it is deserved. You have improved my game  without sending me into a spin of doubt (Despite initiating a flurry of rewrites). I'm mad at Bomb Pop. She messed with my peeps.

73 (edited by njc 2017-01-26 03:26:26)

Re: Unbar's Thread

I guess it's true that you can learn something from anyone.  I wish I were as wise.

Re: Unbar's Thread

In answer to your question amy, this woman was on my newsletter subscriber list.  She agreed to post a review for an Advanced Reading Copy of book 2. I told everyone that if they found typos or other glaring issues to send them.  This is what I got back from her.  In retrospect much of what she says is helpful.  She just comes across as a snob. There isn't one way to do this. Much of what she says about dialogue tags is poppycock and holding J. K Rowling up as the next Ernest Hemingway is also telling. In fact, if she paid attention she would notice that Harry Potter himself is a pretty boring character at least to me. I have been scanning through all three of my manuscripts for some of the issues she brought up so in the end her message was helpful. She is definitely off my ARC list for book three though. As to fixing my double spaces after periods I just did a simple find and replace all in word. It took 60 seconds.

Re: Unbar's Thread

There are better ways to say, "Go back and revise again. Blah blah is something that needs improvement before showing this work to the public."