Topic: it's, its', let's, lets'
and more. a rant about the apostrophes benefits for soothing savage punctuation
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and more. a rant about the apostrophes benefits for soothing savage punctuation
Kill the apostrophe
https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/0 … nding.html
MT
Memphis Trace wrote:Kill the apostrophe
https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/0 … nding.htmlMT
All I can say in order to end this rant I've found myself riled up about is I've lived too fucking long.
MJ
Rants are good, they keep us moving. To not rant once in a while is to not care one way or the other. Take care. Vern
English Lit was a class you sat through in awe, and your English professor was someone you admired and secretly swore to be like him/her one day.
In my school, English Lit was a separate course from English 20 (grade 11). You had to choose one. I went with English Lit. Turns out, English 20 is where they taught all of the grammar rules one needs to write a book today. On the plus side, English Lit was taught by the department head, who "secretly" drank alcohol out of his coffee cup. He was a hoot.
Memphis Trace wrote:Kill the apostrophe
https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/0 … nding.htmlMT
Then along comes this idea where someone is either too ignorant or too lazy to put in an apostrophe. All I can say in order to end this rant I've found myself riled up about is I've lived too fucking long.
MJ
Did you read the article?
MT
One relatively new one for me is that ", and then" has now become ", then". When did "then" become a coordinating conjunction?
MJ, long live the Oxford comma!
I’m reading Turow’s Personal Injuries now. Apparently, he likes to have it both ways. He eschews the apostrophe in goin’, havin’, etc., but still puts the comma in before a sentence-ending “too.” Old school and, apparently trendy, apostrophe avoidance.
Rules change, and they should. Internet and dumpster used to be capitalized, and now often aren’t, but there’s still some who do honor the brands. (There is a transition period!) Foreign phrases used to require italics, but increasingly, they’ve become a part of English usage and are in normal font. I often have to consult the CMOS or the AP Stylebook to see what the latest consensus is. Writing has changed a lot since I learned the “rules” in high school!
Marilyn, I grew up with the double space between sentences, but that’s dead, dear, and I’m living with that just fine.
Marilyn, I wish I could type like that! My father tried to teach me typing when I was a kid, but I couldn't have cared less. So now I use the one-finger method. I've gotten quite adept at it, though. Talk about new tricks!
You should try a French computer keyboard. You'd be amazed how much that will slow you down. I spend more time on the backspace key than any other. I'd splurge for something new, but I have too many bills to pay.
Well, not to get too fired up about it, but the whack-o who called a comma merely 'a lower apostrophe' is an excellent illustration of the state of today's writing. The comma is just as misused as the poor apostrophe. It gets jammed in where it doesn't belong and left out when it is sorely needed.
You'd think at least somebody would have been paying attention in English class, but alas! the disregard of English grammar has been going on for so long, even today's teachers don't know what's what. (Much like the teachers who can't write in cursive, yet are called upon to teach it.)
Anyone who tells you it doesn't matter what the rules are, because rules were made to be broken by creative thinkers, is just wrong. The rules of grammar are what standardize language, enabling us to communicate with one another.
I agree with MJ. Why mess with something that works?
I think creative writers are messing with things because they aren't working.
I like these quotes from the article:
In contractions like hes, shes, youre, theyre, and its, there are ones no one gets wrong, and there are ones that are gotten completely wrong all the time (theyre/their/there, youre/your). Either way, people still know what the writer means. Every. Single. Time. The apostrophe makes no difference.
In Ill, youll, hell, shell, well, itll, and theyll, there are some apparent points of confusion. “Ill do it if hell do it and shell do it” might seem like odd English referring to sickness, Hades, and mollusks. But odds are very good you understood it anyway.
And in possessives? Thats where people get them wrong most often, and yet we always know what they mean.
&
3. Many apostrophes are really only there for condescension
Apostrophes do have one consistent function: The grammar griper brigade likes to use them as the tips on their cats-o-nine-tails. Theyre excellent tools for condescension. Dont tell me theres no classism in terms like “greengrocers apostrophe” (for apostrophes in plurals). Such agitation over a little mark that conveys nothing new—other, evidently, than, “This person doesnt know how to use apostrophes.” Its a fashion infraction on the level of wearing white after Labor Day or socks with sandals.
In fact, the apostrophe in the possessive forms is there only because some people wanted to show their superior knowledge. It wasnt there originally. The possessive s in modern English is descended from one of several Old English forms: es, e, an, and a.
MT
Memphis Trace wrote:Ann Everett wrote:I agree with MJ. Why mess with something that works?
I think creative writers are messing with things because they aren't working.
I like these quotes from the article:
In contractions like hes, shes, youre, theyre, and its, there are ones no one gets wrong, and there are ones that are gotten completely wrong all the time (theyre/their/there, youre/your). Either way, people still know what the writer means. Every. Single. Time. The apostrophe makes no difference.I go back to my original thought on this matter. It's not that things aren't working, because they are. And have been for many years. They're working for those who took the time to listen in class, for those who were interested enough to learn their native tongue. It may be correct that people still know what the writer means, every time. I know what they mean, but it doesn't mean it should be my place to have to figure out exactly what it is you mean. When I see the misuse of theyre/their/there, youre/your, it's/its, I cringe. It tells me the writer doesn't care and never did, else they'd learn proper English, which, as JP pointed out, is our form of communication with each other. It means you don't care if someone has to figure out what you mean.
Mark Twain cared enough to write the greatest American novel (The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn] in the dialect of the times. Every school marm in the country got their bloomers in a bunch. They are now dead, some probably tied to a tree and beaten to death metaphorically. Huck Finn lives on, accessible wit and wisdom for all.
Students should learn by THIRD grade that the plural of potato is not potato's, or tomato tomato's. This simply boils down to how lazy our country has become. Many teachers get teaching degrees and teach what they know, which in this day and time is very little. We let kids pass on to the next grade when many of them shouldn't. And I'll go back to my old pet peeve of homeschooling. A homeschooled child is only going to be as smart as the one teaching them. We have no rules governing who can home teach and who can't, or at least we don't have rules here in the south where I live. So if you're a homeschooled kid and your teacher (probably parent) writes "Its cold out today, so everyone should wear they're mittens when your going outside" --- then I rest my case. If you home school and your kids are the smartest in the world, then congratulations because not every homeschooled child has that opportunity.
One of the points of this article is that anyone regardless of whether they know the difference between potato and potato's understand what a semi-literate means when they write it wrong. The same way you know what they mean when they speak both words. That you know the difference hardly gives you license to shame a semi-literate trying to communicate in writing. Killing the apostrophe would cure both your imperious attitude and allay the child's shame.
There's an old saying here in the south: You'll never rise above your raising if you don't take the initiative and do it yourself.
There are many old sayings in the south. I like Mark Twain's best: Education consists mainly in what we have unlearned.
I one hundred percent agree with John Richards: "The ignorance and laziness of modern times have won."
When going with the times means going the wrong way, I resist every time. I'll leave you with a quote that my father used to tell us kids every single day: Do it right or don't do it at all.
If you are waiting to do something right before you do it at all, why do you belong to a writing workshop? Why did you ever do arithmetic homework?
MJ
MT
I really get tired of hearing how lazy we are today. OMG- we work harder and more hours than any previous generation. Multi-tasking has become a given in just about every industry. I long for the time to pontificate over the correct use of a comma and an apostrophe. I am one of those on this site that invariably put the damn comma in the wrong place. Sue me. I try. There are so many rules, that sometimes I just put it where I feel I want a pause. OOPS!
I learned that when a word ends in an "s" you just add the apostrophe to the end- I get my chapters marked up that it should be 's. It looks inelegant to me and causes me to hiss when I read the words. So I'm going back to just leaving it s'. I'm sorry if that makes me lazy. But Christ, I work 14 hours a day at my job and write to relax and enjoy myself. It's fun. I'm on this website to improve. But I don't need the experts treating me like I'm ignorant, either.
Thank you, Memphis! I also am a huge fan of Sam Clemens. (Or is that: I, also, am a huge fan of Sam Clemens.)
CJ
Listening is the new reading. I don't remember the last time I read a book. Even on this site, I click the reader view option. It has a voice feature and I just listen to the members' work. My point is, when you're listening punctuation does not matter.
We're like political candidates arguing about the "write" way to do this or that when we are actually all arguing for the same thing which is to get the damn story done and over with and hopefully published. When all is said and done, the author will heed whatever advice suits their vision and the reviewer will give whatever advice they think might help under the circumstances -- it may or may not, but the effort is valuable and hopefully appreciated and not denounced as some evil editor bound to keep their story off the shelves. We can learn and ignore with wisdom or simply ignore the rules and sound advice of others. And that's the truth, phtttt. Take care. Vern
Listening is the new reading. I don't remember the last time I read a book. Even on this site, I click the reader view option. It has a voice feature and I just listen to the members' work. My point is, when you're listening punctuation does not matter.
When you're listening, punctuation matters the most. Written language mimics the spoken language. When we talk, we pause. Sometimes we make short pauses, sometimes, long ones. Commas and full-stops perform the same function. A good automatic reader should be programmed to respect the punctuation, otherwise the story will make no sense.
The purpose of grammar is to standardise written language and make it understandable, thus serving as a communication mean. Otherwise, written language would be impossible to understand. Both written and spoken language evolve, and that is right, but if any of them evolve too fast you end up with something that is no longer understandable. For practical purposes, a new language.
If people start writing the way they prefer, for example not using apostrophes, while it may be easy to recognise some words, it may be difficult to recognise others--unless everybody who speaks English accepts the change at once and starts writing in that way. This is almost impossible, because, unlike French, Portuguese, and Spanish, there is no international organisation, whose authority is widely accepted, ruling how the language should be written, recognising new trends, and communicating the new trends to every Spanish, French, or Portuguese speaker.
For example: all of you who have studied Spanish know this language uses graphical accents over vowels to indicate the strong syllable in a word, like this: á, é í, ó, and ú. This is important because the meaning of a lot of words changes depending on the accented syllable. "Lastima" (emphasis on the "i") and "lástima" (emphasis on the "a") mean different things. "Lastima", means "it hurts", "lástima" means pity.
Recently, the Spanish Academy decided to eliminate a number of graphical accents in words where there is no possible confusion, thus simplifying the grammar. "Fué" means 2went", the strong vowel is the "e". But there's no possible confusion because there is no other word like that. So, after 2010, "fue" is written without the graphical accent. Once the Academy published the new grammar rules, every Spanish speaker started writing these and the rest of the modified words without the graphical accent. Editors and publishers immediately adopted the new rule. Schools started teaching the new rule ipso-facto.
In English, this is not possible, for there is no "worldwide" authority. There are some authorities, like the Chicago Manual of Style, but to follow their mandates optional. Take the Oxford comma, there are critics and followers, but no rule. Brits write "recognise" and Americans "recognize", and both are considered right. English standardisation is poor and, with enough time, it may end up like Latin, giving birth to a number of new languages similar, but different, from the original one. Whether that is good or bad is still to be seen. It'll be good if the process fosters better communication, it'll be bad if it hinders communication.
Kiss,
Gacela
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti.
We're like political candidates arguing about the "write" way to do this or that when we are actually all arguing for the same thing which is to get the damn story done and over with and hopefully published.
Amen.
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