Re: A different critique

vern wrote:

So, the discussion is now where it belongs imo; whether "roar" is appropriate or not within the sentence. This is what imo the reviewer and/or author should be asking as opposed to an obscure (for most folks) rule which in essence would add little if anything to the description in this specific case though that assertion may not be true for all sentences with similar structure.

We can have different opinions of what exactly defines a "roar" and if a particular definition is what the author is trying to present to the reader. It is all good and from this perspective, there is no right or wrong, merely what is in the eye of the beholder. The author would/should make that final calculation after considering the various angles from reviewers. Quite interesting me thinks. Take care. Vern

“Agree!” the parakeet roared.

Re: A different critique

Malcom Reynolds wrote:
vern wrote:

So, the discussion is now where it belongs imo; whether "roar" is appropriate or not within the sentence. This is what imo the reviewer and/or author should be asking as opposed to an obscure (for most folks) rule which in essence would add little if anything to the description in this specific case though that assertion may not be true for all sentences with similar structure.

We can have different opinions of what exactly defines a "roar" and if a particular definition is what the author is trying to present to the reader. It is all good and from this perspective, there is no right or wrong, merely what is in the eye of the beholder. The author would/should make that final calculation after considering the various angles from reviewers. Quite interesting me thinks. Take care. Vern

“Agree!” the parakeet roared.

Until it was hoarse and could roar no more. Take care. Vern

Re: A different critique

vern wrote:
Malcom Reynolds wrote:
vern wrote:

So, the discussion is now where it belongs imo; whether "roar" is appropriate or not within the sentence. This is what imo the reviewer and/or author should be asking as opposed to an obscure (for most folks) rule which in essence would add little if anything to the description in this specific case though that assertion may not be true for all sentences with similar structure.

We can have different opinions of what exactly defines a "roar" and if a particular definition is what the author is trying to present to the reader. It is all good and from this perspective, there is no right or wrong, merely what is in the eye of the beholder. The author would/should make that final calculation after considering the various angles from reviewers. Quite interesting me thinks. Take care. Vern

“Agree!” the parakeet roared.

Until it was hoarse and could roar no more. Take care. Vern

“Ooh! Ooh!” the orangutan tweeted.

Re: A different critique

Malcom Reynolds wrote:
vern wrote:
Malcom Reynolds wrote:

“Agree!” the parakeet roared.

Until it was hoarse and could roar no more. Take care. Vern

“Ooh! Ooh!” the orangutan tweeted.

Oops, not allowed to talk Trump in these forums, lol. Take care. Vern

30 (edited by kraptonite 2018-03-20 05:46:12)

Re: A different critique

Kdot wrote:

Just to keep the wheels spinning, what of the verb "padded" and in "Bob padded to the kitchen sink". Amazon forums will tell you it's a no-no, and "padded" only applies to creature with paws. Would you allow padded to be applied to humans?

'Political correctness' has expanded into 'literal correctness.' The rise of the Word Police. smile Where would creative writing be without the creativity?

Surely 'padded' is some kind of descriptive simile (or metaphor)? It expresses a movement or a type/way of moving, very succinctly. 

"Natalie saw doe-eyed Sarah weaving her spell upon Mark and flew across the room to confront her."

Of course humans can neither fly nor have the eyeballs of a deer transplanted into their heads.

Reading your use of the word 'padded' as an example was very relevant to me because I'd read the passage below in a novel just minutes earlier;

She swivelled in her seat, snatched up the mug and recoiled as her lips met the cold sarcoma that had formed on the coffee's surface. Beyond her reflection in the window the moony sea seemed to shiver.

Georgie got up and padded across to the kitchen which was separated from the living space by the glossy rampart of benches and domestic appliances. From the freezer she pulled out a bottle and poured herself a serious application of vodka. She stood a while staring back at the great merging space of the livingroom. It was big enough not to seem crowded, despite the fact that it held an eight-seater dining table, the computer station and the three sofas corralled around the TV at the other end. The whole seaward wall of this top floor was glass and all the curtains were thrown back. Between the house and the lagoon a hundred metres away there was only the front lawn and a few scrubby dunes. Georgie slugged the vodka down at a gulp. It was all sensation and no taste, exactly how a sister once described her. She smiled and put the glass down too loudly on the draining board. A little way along the hall Jim was asleep. The boys were downstairs.

This excerpt is from the novel 'Dirt Music' by the author Tim Winton. (a study subject of mine at the moment). I would guess that the Amazon forums would rip Winton apart as his descriptions can get very abstract (this snippet is quite tame; but selected because it uses 'padded). Apart from that this is a huge global selling novel of high acclaim. A book store shelf staple, Amazon have shipped loads of copies (including mine).

The sea can 'seem' to shiver but can it actually be moony? Can you slug a drink at a gulp without being repetitive/redundant and including a footnote explaining that when you say slug, you are not referencing the slimy garden invertebrate slug (philomycidae), or the swing of a fist or bat (and by bat you mean sports equipment rather than a flying animal (chiroptera)...

'Georgie got up and padded across to the kitchen...'  as I read, it creates a subliminal image of how she moves. I see her in fluffy slippers on a tiled floor conscious that the rest of the house members are sleeping. I think that the description 'padded' invokes that imagery (just as 'moony sea' does for my image of the ocean).

"She stood a while staring back at the..."   Should it be, 'She stood for a while staring back at the...' ?

'It was all sensation and no taste, exactly how a sister once described her.' (loved that line, although I do understand that she is actually carbon based, all skin, bone and nerve endings). smile   

I'm a Winton convert. I was unaware of his work until assigned his novel 'Breath' within course work. The point of studying Winton's prose, I suppose is to examine the very questions posed in this thread. Does newly created literature have to be written literally/unambiguously in the new puritanical, sterilized  style, or can the literary Cavalier or wordsmith still exist? Has the AutoCrit generation of Amazon Forum editor killed prose?

Re: A different critique

wow

Re: A different critique

kraptonite wrote:


...is to examine the very questions posed in this thread. Does newly created literature have to be written literally/unambiguously in the new puritanical, sterilized  style, or can the literary Cavalier or wordsmith still exist? Has the AutoCrit generation of Amazon Forum editor killed prose?

I believe I'm hinting that yes, the Amazon Forum wields unfair power. I've heard figures thrown out that Amazon controls anywhere from 50 to 80% of the eBook market. Given those kinds of numbers, I'm more than willing to eavesdrop on their forums and learn what they hate in droves with the goal of sanitizing my writing to their specifications.

Is this approach unnecessary pandering to the reader? Is it allowing Gen AutoCrit to win? Probably. On the other hand, I'm only losing a few words I didn't care about. Having gone through all my work and removed the word "pad", I find my stories unharmed. I feel like I made a picture, and the market is squabbling about what frame to put it in. If they'll only buy it with a golden frame, fine, here's a golden frame for you.

I don't foresee myself hunting down every use of "roar". Not sure why. Well... tedium is one factor. I know for sure I haven't applied it to cheetahs, so I think I can sneak under the radar on that. I think such a quest would result in oversterilization. There's only so much reader-service I can deliver.

33 (edited by Lynne Clark 2018-03-20 11:58:38)

Re: A different critique

Kdot wrote:

Is this approach unnecessary pandering to the reader? Is it allowing Gen AutoCrit to win? Probably. On the other hand, I'm only losing a few words I didn't care about. Having gone through all my work and removed the word "pad", I find my stories unharmed. I feel like I made a picture, and the market is squabbling about what frame to put it in. If they'll only buy it with a golden frame, fine, here's a golden frame for you.

I don't foresee myself hunting down every use of "roar". Not sure why. Well... tedium is one factor. I know for sure I haven't applied it to cheetahs, so I think I can sneak under the radar on that. I think such a quest would result in oversterilization. There's only so much reader-service I can deliver.

But that is your sole prerogative. You are the writer; you alone are the creator. There is no reason for you to listen to Amazon, us, or anyone else. You just need to find your own music and write. I think problems like the question of antecedents and sentence structures need careful regard, but the creative use of words to mean what you wish them to in the imagination of the reader is why so many stories can be retold and still be new and amazing.

I have always put my trust in the wise words of Humpty Dumpty.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

34 (edited by kraptonite 2018-03-21 12:51:35)

Re: A different critique

Kdot wrote:

I believe I'm hinting that yes, the Amazon Forum wields unfair power. I've heard figures thrown out that Amazon controls anywhere from 50 to 80% of the eBook market....

When I search the Amazon store for a book by title i.e.  'The Shepard's  Hut', within the returned page there is an embedded advertisement strip that reads...

The Shepherd's Hut and over 2 million other books are available for Amazon Kindle . Learn more

I assume the vast majority are self-published and that this number of kindle titles will rise exponentially? How many titles will be available by 2022?

There is a lot that is good about self-publishing but finding a great read among the 2 million can be a lottery.  As a reader/consumer I'm relying upon the best-seller lists, the Man Booker nominee list and the Book Store window display for my picks, more than I ever did.

As for critique/review, it has taken on a new level. Writing is an art that can be analysed by machine (software). Where art forms such as music, painting, sculpture etc. are measured by human sensory appraisal, the DNA of a written article is tangible code that can be measured and evaluated by software algorithm. A teenager or child with little literary knowledge or experience and devoid of editorial skill, can run the chapter of a novel that an author has poured years of their soul into, through the machine. That  'expert reviewer' can then spout; 'too much was/were' 'sentences to long' 'overused this/overused that' etc. etc. Like appraising the taste of wine by judging the stain it leaves on a tablecloth.

Re: A different critique

lol