1

(18 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Deckland Oz wrote:
Dallas Wright wrote:
Deckland Oz wrote:

Not sure we're reading the same thread.

Apparently.  And some of us didn’t even bother to read the original post [because we are wont to see how clever and verbose we can be and, if we just deal with the (usually simple) topic at hand, that stymies our creativity and penchant for pontificating)], which really only asked two questions:

1) Is (multiple POV) ever used in short stories?
2) Is it even feasible in short stories?

The answer to 1 is obviously “yes” and, given that, the second question is irrelevant.  But from that modest start, we managed within a dozen posts to get all the way to invoking Dune. . . .go figure.

The OP didn't ask about the use of omniscient narration in a short story but merely changing POV in a short story. Hence your post regarding the use of omniscient narration in a short story seemed off point. Perhaps lighten up a bit. No need to go into attack mode.

Correct.  The “omniscient POV” and “omniscient narration” references were addressing the OT posters (like yourself) who had gone off the rails .  Playing dumb doesn’t suit you, Mr. Giuliani.  Obfuscation, however, fits you to a T.  And I believe you grabbed your crotch first.

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Deckland Oz wrote:
Dallas Wright wrote:

Most of these responses dismissed a (the, I’d argue) key element of the question, which is its context:  the “short story” format.   In addition to its limiting form, the short story likely only has a handful of characters, and often just one or two.  The decision to use an omniscient POV in a 2,500-word short story with one or a handful of characters is different than the decision to use it in a +/-100,000-word novel that might have a dozen main/secondary characters and a host of incidental characters.

Not sure we're reading the same thread.

Apparently.  And some of us didn’t even bother to read the original post [because we are wont to see how clever and verbose we can be and, if we just deal with the (usually simple) topic at hand, that stymies our creativity and penchant for pontificating)], which really only asked two questions:

1) Is (multiple POV) ever used in short stories?
2) Is it even feasible in short stories?

The answer to 1 is obviously “yes” and, given that, the second question is irrelevant.  But from that modest start, we managed within a dozen posts to get all the way to invoking Dune. . . .go figure.

3

(18 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Most of these responses dismissed a (the, I’d argue) key element of the question, which is its context:  the “short story” format.   In addition to its limiting form, the short story likely only has a handful of characters, and often just one or two.  The decision to use an omniscient POV in a 2,500-word short story with one or a handful of characters is different than the decision to use it in a +/-100,000-word novel that might have a dozen main/secondary characters and a host of incidental characters.

4

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Rachel (Rhiannon) Parsons wrote:

The omniscient POV is tabu because of editors who could block your access to your potential audience.  And in "How to Write Good" manuals, they stress not using it.

LOL

5

(21 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

And to think, with a couple of keystrokes or a flip of a page, this rabbit hole could’ve been spared completely....
George, Charles, and Noah are looking down from heaven and saying, “WTF?”

6

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Debbie Green wrote:

Can anyone tell me which word I would  use here. I'm not sure. Thanks in advance.

There’s a slight breeze today, and the streamers shift and sparkle and dazzle. The refracted (or reflected?) light dapples the yard and even our faces.

When you type in the query: “what is the difference between reflection and refraction” into Google, the first hit is:

https://www.differencebetween.com/diffe … efraction/

The internet is magic. Dictionaries are cool too.

7

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Memphis Trace wrote:
dagny wrote:
JeffM wrote:

He broke a number of rules, but it doesn't change the fact that it's rolling-on-the-floor funny.
Maybe that's the point?

Jeff--
John used this snippet of writing as an example of description setting up dialogue without tarnishing said dialogue with the swearing that goes with Tourettes. He then went on to include the 'tarnishment.'  Whether it is funny or not isn't relevant, it was a bad example.

smile

I thought John used his snippet to show realistic dialogue that didn't have grunts and hiccups and belches. Or as he says: See? I set it up in the narrative and then let the profanity and the weirdness distinguish his dialogue. Without using ums and uhs or stuttering or whatever. Now, whether I'm making the smart move by doing it that way? That's another matter entirely.

Memphis

Alex Trebeck shouted breathlessly, “If you poke it with a stick, it’ll just keep clawing at you.  If you pat its head and tell it it’s right, it’ll go back under the bridge.”

Mark S. Moore wrote:

Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone has purchased any professional editing from Bookbaby or any comparable service? What has your experience been? These are sizable expenses and I haven't been sold on them yet.

The impossible answer I'd like to know is how they compare to publisher-purchased editing.

What is “publisher-purchased editing”?

9

(62 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Memphis Trace wrote:

For me Scalzi's "saids" do disappear. If I were the dialogue god, I would mandate using the stage play convention of identifying the speaker thusly >>>Speaker:
As always, the secret to being a good writer is knowing whose rules to follow. Scalzi is religiously obeying Elmore Leonard's Rule No. 3 for good writing https://www.writingclasses.com/toolbox/ … od-writing :

Elmore Leonard: 10 Rules for Good Writing
Elmore Leonard started out writing westerns, then turned his talents to crime fiction. One of the most popular and prolific writers of our time, he's written about two dozen novels, most of them bestsellers, such as Glitz, Get Shorty, Maximum Bob, and Rum Punch. Unlike most genre writers, however, Leonard is taken seriously by the literary crowd.

What's Leonard's secret to being both popular and respectable? Perhaps you'll find some clues in his 10 tricks for good writing:

Never open a book with weather.
Avoid prologues.
3. Never use a verb other than "said" to carry dialogue.
Never use an adverb to modify the verb "said"…he admonished gravely.
Keep your exclamation points under control. You are allowed no more than two or three per 100,000 words of prose.
Never use the words "suddenly" or "all hell broke loose."
Use regional dialect, patois, sparingly.
Avoid detailed descriptions of characters.
Don't go into great detail describing places and things.
Try to leave out the part that readers tend to skip.
My most important rule is one that sums up the 10.

If it sounds like writing, I rewrite it.

Amen.
Or, for those bent to verbosity, extraneous tagging, and -ly crutching...
“Amen!” Dallas gushed reverently and appreciatively as he dropped to his knees and clasped his hands, gazing skyward to the Almighty.

10

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Deckland Oz wrote:

I thought it might be interesting for people following this thread to take a look at the excerpt below. It is from "Lock In," by John Scalzi. If you don't know this author, he is a Hugo Award winning sci-fi writer and former president of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America. He's one of my favorite writers, sci-fi or otherwise. As for his dialog, it's funny, quick, and crisp. But what I want people to see here is his repetitive use of "said" dialog tags. Notice in the excerpt below he uses one in all but two lines. I can only imagine if this was presented on this site, the fun reviewers would have with their virtual red pens. And yet Mr. Scalzi is probably the most well-regarded sci-fi writer working today. So why is it okay for him to so obviously disobey the sacred rules and overuse said in such a blatant way? Well, because that's his style. Because he is doing so in a conscious and deliberate way for a particular effect. Far from disappearing, the repetition of the phrase has, for me at least, the effect of nearly mesmerizing the reader, like a repeating drum beat. In any case, that is my interpretation of the device. But the point is — it IS a device. And what concerns me is that when one takes a dogmatic stance on any aspect of writing (or art in general) one is in danger of discouraging those who would play with the tools at their disposal to create a given style or effect in an intentional way. In light of this, imagine if some editor had told Cormic McCarthy that failing to use quotation marks for dialog was simply not done because, well, I say so. Just something to consider. Now enjoy (or hate, as you choose) the excerpt below:

“I royally pissed off Trinh tonight,” I said. “I think she hates me more than she hates you.”

“Oh, I doubt that,” Vann said. “But if you got her even halfway there I’ll buy you a drink.”

“I don’t drink,” I said.

“Good,” Vann said. “Then you buy me a drink. Come on. I know a bar.”

“I don’t really think you should be hitting the bars tonight,” I said. “You have a hole in your shoulder.”

“It’s a scratch,” Vann said.

“A hole in your shoulder from a bullet,” I said.

“It was a small bullet,” Vann said.

“Fired by someone trying to kill you.”

“All the more reason I need a drink.”

*fist bump*

11

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C J Driftwood wrote:

I’m not trying to impress your colleagues. Or even you. Sorry you found my link so disappointing and hilarious. I’d love to be enlightened by one of your own postings, but woe and behold nothing there. And only two reviews by you, that I can see. You like better to incite than inform.
I’m here to improve my writing, I’m not sure why you are.

It was pretty funny.
There are more reviews than that.  Those are regular reviews.  I tend to do in-lines.
I enjoy editing.  It’s my job.
I am a basic member here. I post on two other sites.  If you are so eager to be enlightened, PM me and I’ll be happy to enlighten you.
I prefer informing to inciting - you may be skipping over the parts that inform.

12

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Deckland Oz wrote:

On that topic, I very highly recommend the following seminal work on the subject of contemporary literary style, as it details the evils of explaining in lucid perfection; every aspiring writer ought read this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Self-Editing-Fic … 0060545690

Agree with the book recommendation.  Excellent resource.  Wore the cover off my first copy.  Two exceptional editors authored that work, incidentally.  Reinforces the importance of relying on editors for advice on such topics
(rather than blogs with Buzzfeed-like topics, such as “100 Ways to Say ‘Good’ “). 
Oy vey...*face palm*

13

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vern wrote:

My mantra for speaker tags (feel free to borrow it): "Let the words (dialogue) and actions show the tone and/or state of mind of the speaker." Yes, there may be a few exceptions as with every rule, but there should not be many imnho. Take care. Vern

Exactly. 

Or, as they say at the “write at home” blog:

“Exactly!” Dallas declared expressively. 

LOL

14

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C J Driftwood wrote:
Dallas Wright wrote:
C J Driftwood wrote:

I agree abou thte -ly adjectives weighing down your tags, but that's not what Dirk was talking about. He was talking about using a different verb- instead of "said" use "snapped".

-ly adjectives weren’t my point either,  that’s why it was made as a parenthetical comment.  Might reread it.  I was addressing principally tags other than “said.”   Also, I think you miss the point of dialogue tags.  They are supposed to be boring.  They are supposed to disappear.  99% of the time, their purpose should be to identify the speaker - period.  If you are routinely using them for other purposes, you need to study up on effective dialogue.  Your objective should be to make the tags as inconspicuous as possible.  Clever tags draw attention to the tags, not the dialogue  (and away from the story).   When you embrace this, you will be one step closer to masterful dialogue. If you turn your back on it, your dialogue will sound amateurish.  Just the way it is.

There is nothing wrong with using a tag to explain how something is said. The use of "said" doesn't disappear. It becomes a repeat to some readers ears (like mine).

http://blog.writeathome.com/index.php/2 … -say-said/

I stand corrected.  My sources are my colleagues in the field of professional editing. I should be reading more sources like blogs called “write at home.”  Who knew?  Thank you for enlightening me.

15

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C J Driftwood wrote:

I agree abou thte -ly adjectives weighing down your tags, but that's not what Dirk was talking about. He was talking about using a different verb- instead of "said" use "snapped".

-ly adjectives weren’t my point either,  that’s why it was made as a parenthetical comment.  Might reread it.  I was addressing principally tags other than “said.”   Also, I think you miss the point of dialogue tags.  They are supposed to be boring.  They are supposed to disappear.  99% of the time, their purpose should be to identify the speaker - period.  If you are routinely using them for other purposes, you need to study up on effective dialogue.  Your objective should be to make the tags as inconspicuous as possible.  Clever tags draw attention to the tags, not the dialogue  (and away from the story).   When you embrace this, you will be one step closer to masterful dialogue. If you turn your back on it, your dialogue will sound amateurish.  Just the way it is.

16

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Dirk B. wrote:

Mistake #5 - Dialogue Tags: I get it. Using “he said” and “she said” is boring. However, dialogue tags are meant to be functional and not descriptive.
Gee, how about trying tags that are functional and descriptive? If your going to put a word on the page, making it serve more than one purpose seems like common sense.

Or how about the way those tags distract the user? When one of my admirals snapped at one of her subordinates, I didn't hear any feedback from distracted reviewers.

Sure, they can be overused, but having to read a fancy dialogue tag doesn't distract me in the least. Why should I write a sentence showing how my admiral is pissed off when I'm in the middle of a fast-moving battle and short choppy sentences are best suited for the scene?

Technically, I could have written "As you were, Ensign!" the admiral said, and let the exclamation mark serve in lieu of a snapping dialogue tag, but I find that I scan over punctuation marks since they're so small. I use said for regular conversation and other tags to give them added weight.

“Clever” dialogue tags are a crutch of beginning writers and those who haven’t developed their dialogue skills sufficiently.  (Or those too lazy to bother.) 

Once you learn how to write dialogue effectively, you need very few tags at all (context and action beats replace them), and most of the ones you do use can be “said” (without a clever -ly adjective weighing it down.)  (That’s also the point where writers quit defending the use of silly tags.) 

For example, in the above, there is a good chance that context would tell us it’s the admiral using that line.  And the actions preceding it would likely indicate the tone (if not, then you have a bigger problem).   So, the exclamation point and the tag are likely both unnecessary.  If you think you need them, I suggest you challenge yourself to modify the scene where it’s obvious without them.  That’s what writing is about, not finding clever dialogue tags.

Save your cleverness for great verbs and nouns and dialogue, not dialogue tags.

PS: Try reading The Road, by Cormac McCarthy, or download a sample.  No quotation marks, almost no tags. (And no exclamation marks.) Yet he is still able to convey incredibly complex emotions.   Now those are some serious dialogue chops.

17

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vern wrote:

Like all other "rules" it is just a guideline. Sure folks use "uhs" and "ums" and such in talking just the way they use "you know" which is distracting and annoying in person and would become more so in written dialogue. An occasional utterance is no big deal, but to make it standard practice is probably going to make it stand out to the point of distraction for the reader. Surely there are better ways to differentiate characters' speech patterns. Take care. Vern

Agree 100%. If differentiating a character’s speech is the excuse, then you need to apply more creativity.  If you use a reputable editor, they’ll advise you to take such “uhs” and “ums” out (because they are useless filler).  They show up a lot in self-pub and fiction by hacks.  They rarely appear in literary fiction.  I don’t think you could find an established writer with critical acclaim that would condone using them as a marker to differentiate a character’s speech.  And no decent editor would condone it.  And why on earth would you want to?

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(5 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Dirk B. wrote:

Time to see if there's a consensus on this one:

Is the second comma below (after the word epithet) required? I think it doesn't belong because the name of the epithet, Bastardus Minusculus, is mandatory for understanding which epithet is being referred to. Or am I applying the wrong comma rule? (This is about a future society where the Roman Empire has been resurrected, hence the name Caligula.)

Although it took years for Caligula to be recognized for his brilliance, among the many side effects is that the epithet, Bastardus Minusculus, which had tormented Caligula throughout his youth, became an honorific awarded for extraordinary accomplishments in any field, similar to the coveted Noble Prize of the late second and early third millennia.

Thanks

Dirk

The comma after “epithet” is wrong. 
However, I would take another stab at the sentence.  It’s convoluted.  Among its many problems, it contains irrelevant information.  For example, “that it took years for his brilliance to be recognized” is irrelevant to the point of the sentence.   The relevant information, is that he is brilliant.  Also, you are implying that the honorific is a side effect of the fact it took “many years for his brilliance to be recognized.”  Which is not correct.  The “side effect” (which I would argue is the wrong term) is a result of his “brilliance.”  But there are more problems than that, which is why I would start over on it.   (While you are at it, you can delete everything after the word “Prize” - also irrelevant to the point of the sentence.)

http://blog.janicehardy.com/2018/06/5-w … novel.html

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Sideman wrote:

Dallas, see my comment on the "Coontest" thread.

Lighten up, Sideman.  Don’t let that chip on your shoulder affect your sense of humor.  I have one leg and can’t hear in my left ear, and I have half of three fingers missing from an industrial accident.  Life sucks, but you just gotta roll with it.

Sideman wrote:

Dallas,

RE:  My misspelling of "contest". I have focal dystonia in my hands - makes typing as close to impossible as can be. It makes my fingers curl into tight claws when I attempt to use them. Look it up if you'd care to. I typically have 60 - 70 typos per book page in my novels, which I go back and manually correct - often takes as long as two hours to do so - that's per page, not per chapter. In my novels, I make the effort to correct the errors. In my reviews and forum posts, I don't. If you would read my profile, you'd see where I mentioned this. I put many, many hours into cleaning up my novel pages because that's what's needed and expected.

It doesn't reflect particularly well on you to make light of folks who work very hard to produce what many think is good work in spite of those obstacles. I have a good sense of humor, but I don't use it to belittle others. Plus, I have a 72- year-old significantly disabled wife to care for. I don't have time to go back and correct everything other than the novels. Most of the regulars here know that. It's not a matter of "poor me - they're picking on me". It's a matter of simple respect and courtesy to a fellow person. Know before you speak.


Here's a definition of Focal Dystonia relating to the hands:  Focal dystonia is a neurological condition, a type of dystonia, that affects a muscle or group of muscles in a specific part of the body, causing involuntary muscular contractions and abnormal postures. For example, in focal hand dystonia, the fingers either curl into the palm or extend outward without control.

Alan

FYI:  It took me 28 minutes to correct the typos in this short message.

You are being a little too sensitive.  I wasn’t making fun of you.  I just thought the word was funny.  Lighten up.
(I typed this completely with my voice.  Half of three fingers missing.)  You might benefit from a voice-to-text app.  I hardly type anymore.  It’s great. It’s built-in to iOS.  You can also get a stand-alone system.
https://www.nuance.com/dragon.html

22

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Dirk B. wrote:
j p lundstrom wrote:

Could somebody parse this, please?

To celebrate his book's arrival on the New York times best seller list Dirk and his twin brother Dallas spent the night drinking and carousing as if they were back in college.

Is it too late to go back to Norm d'Plume?

Keep the name, but the spooky avatar’s gotta go.  LOL
(We’ll have a “coontest” to findya a new one....)

Billy Bob:  Looks like a coon to me.
Caleb: I tell ya, it’s a possum.
Billy Bob: Possums don’t have furry tails, ya moron.
Caleb: Blow me.  Let’s give it a coontest.
Billy Bob: You’re on.
*facepalm*
LOL

24

(23 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

Comma cat fight....

25

(23 replies, posted in TheNextBigWriter Premium)

njc wrote:

The problem with stylebook comma rules is that they look at the type of node rather than the tree structure.

What in the thundering infernal blazes do I mean by that?

Well, bear with me.  It will take a bunch of words to explain, but it's really very simple.  It's also easier to explain with drawings than in words alone, and I might put some up later.

Some among us may remember 'diagramming' sentences as a way to show the grammatical structure graphically.  The point of diagramming is that our grammar is (a) hierarchical (tree-structured) and (b) recursive--you can turn entire clauses into modifiers (using relative pronouns and subordinating conjunctions) or nouns (using relative pronouns), bury nouns in modifiers (prepositional phrases) and turn predicates into nouns and adjectives (gerunds and participles).  This means that structure repeats within structure.  Mathematics has a tool to describe this: the tree.  This tree, and the theory around it, is a limited kind of  'graph'.  It has another tool: Formal Language Theory, which makes heavy use of graphs.

There's all sorts of neat theory here, and especially a lot of neat algorithms, but we won't need to wrangle any of that.  We just need the tree as a picture.

A graph, in graph theory, is a set of points (called nodes) connected by lines (or curves) called arcs.  A tree is a graph with a single 'top' node called the root (for us, the whole sentence) and without cycles.  No cycles means that from one node to another there's only one path, and a node has at most one 'ancestor' leading toward the root.  Nodes may have descendents; these are called 'inner' (or 'non-terminal') nodes.  Nodes at the bottom of the tree, called 'leaf' or 'terminal' nodes have no descendents.  Leaf nodes represent unmodified individual words.  The inner nodes represent constructions (words with modifiers, phrases, clauses, conjuntion-joinings, appositives and parentheticals, &c &c &c & &c).

Why is this more important than the cost of a good cup of coffee?

We speak, write, hear, and read linear strings of words.  When we speak or write, we need to turn the tree of meaning (in our minds) into that string of words.  When we hear or read, we need to turn the linear string of words back into that tree of meaning.

'Grammar' describes the allowable structure of the tree, and how it is converted to and from the linear sequence of words.  Converting the string into the tree is called 'parsing' and it is a harder problem than generating the string.  Strunk and White present the example of an eliided 'that'.  I'll modify the example:

'He felt * his nose, which was over an inch long, made him look ridiculous.'

There's an implied 'that' at the asterisk, but the reader can't realize it until somewhere after the word 'made'.  This case, the elided 'that', is peculiar to English, but the general parsing problem is inherently more difficult than generating the string.  You can explore the drowning depths of the question in the WikiP articles on Backus-Naur Form and Formal Language Theory.  But the essence is fairly simple.

When you are constructing the hierarchical sentence in your mind, you are attaching the words, one by one, to that notional parse tree.  You need to know where to attach each word.  Does it go on the previous word or construct, or does it go on a more remote node?

'red train' => 'train' attached below 'red'
'Jesus wept' => 'Jesus' the subject below 'wept, 'wept' the verb below predicate, predicate below clause. below sentence.

Now consider "He felt that his big nose, which was over an inch long, made him look ridiculous."  This is an easy sentence for an adult reader of English to understand, but it is frightfully complex viewed as grammar.  "that his big nose ...." is a free relative clause serving as the direct object of 'felt'.  (Yes, there are other ways to describe it, but they won't change my basic point.)  Let's look at that clause.

His big nose which was over an inch long made him look ridiculous.

I've omitted all commas so we can ask "Why and where do we put commas?"  (Have patience.  We're getting close to my point.)

Read this sentence aloud (if you can, otherwise aloud in your mind).  Where do you pause slightly?  I think you'll find it's before 'which' and after 'long'.  Why do you delay there?  Is it because you've been taught where to put commas?  Or is it because the pauses are natural in the sentence structure?

Whether you pause because of the mental processes involved in constructing the sentence, or because you want to communicate that structure, the listener will discern the pauses and infer from them the structure they indicate.

I want to focus now on that second pause: "... over an inch long, made him look ridiculous."  What does this indicate in the tree-structured grammar hierarchy?  It indicates that the word 'ridiculous' ends a branch of the tree, and the next word attaches somewhere above that branch.  The next word, 'made', ties back to 'nose'.  'made' is the verb (of the predicate) of which 'nose' is the subject.  Everything between was a modifier on 'nose', a node below 'nose' in the grammar tree.  But 'made' belongs to the predicate, which is actually above nose in the grammar tree.

This break upward in the parse is what the natural pause indicates.  This is what I hold the comma ought to indicate.

Now we can examine why the stylebook rules cannot, in general, be right.

They call for commas to be placed before or after certain types of clauses, phrases, or other constructions.  For appositives and parenthetical phrases, the comma use is part of basic English punctuation, universal and not limited to a stylebook.  Likewise, commas used for series are pretty much univeral (excluding the Oxford comma).  I don't think any stylebook will say not to use them.

But the prescription to place commas before or after certain clauses and phrases, or between this and that, are based on the types of the nodes in the tree, not on the need to indicate a change, from adding to the current place in the tree, to a much higher place in the tree.  What the reader needs to know is where the parse breaks from a lower-level structure and moves back up the tree.  If the comma is to help the reader, it must tell the reader what the reader needs to know.  It must tell the reader when the parse breaks back up the parse tree.

Rules based on the type of the grammar nodes can only be right in some cases, not all.  Nor can they deal with sentences that might require, according to their rules, many commas at many levels of the grammar tree.  A sentence festooned with one comma for every five or six words will most often be hard to read.  The greater the break in levels, the greater the need for the comma.  The mind can easily connect a break of a level or two, but when the break is the end of a clause nested in a clause or phrase, or a combination of clause and conjunction, the comma is a great help to the reader.  Thus, where there is a question of where to put the comma(s), the comma(s) should be placed at the largest breaks, that is, the breaks across the greatest number of levels of the parse.

The stylebooks' use of the grammar node type is an attempt to spare their users the need to fully understand their sentences' structures.  The consequences are not good.

So I hold.
So I declare.
So I proclaim.

good lord