Topic: Catfights in romance - good idea or a bad idea?

Hi everyone

Interesting question based on a review I've done this week where a romance novel contains a chapter where the female protagonist and the female antagonist got busy and resorted to a physical fight throwing punches (I guess I should've suggested including scratching and pulling hair should also be included).

I have never read a novel, any novel, not only romance novels, where this has ever happened.

Has anyone around here seen it before?

And what do you think, good idea or bad idea for a romance novel? Or does it depend, i.e. if the female protagonist doesn't have any alternative but to defend herself (and she can, she's a part-time boxer), will it be (more) acceptable?

Re: Catfights in romance - good idea or a bad idea?

I think we agree dags, this was my reply on another forum - I did mention in my review that I have never read of a catfight before and the question was asked in the reply from the author:

It's a much better look if a woman defends herself instead of being the one that starts the (physical) fight. IMO, the majority of female readers will not be impressed if the FMC resorts to violence (unless she has NO other choice), because we don't think it's classy for women to get physical with other women (it does happen in real life, but no one ever read a romance novel to be reminded of reality and frankly, there is nothing even remotely romantic about two women hitting and punching each other). In other words, women tend to sort out their differences verbally (well, not really, we know that for most women never forget wink ) and something like this might have your (majority) female readers question whether the FMC is really worthy of their admiration whereas the male readers will probably cheer her/them on.

I have never ever read a book where two women had a go at each other, in any novel, not only romance novels. I'm sure they exist, but only a few at most? And I'd be pretty confident that there would be even fewer in the romance genre (next to nothing if they do exist). This is probably an excellent question for the Romance Group.

The reason why I didn't come out straight and suggested to remove the scene as a whole, was for a very good reason (IMO) - if the antagonist starts the fight, and the protagonist who is capable of defending herself, do just that, it's a certain/very effective way to have readers dislike (hate) the antagonist even more (not that it's possible, she's been a really horrible - in other words, a really good - antagonist so far!).

Re: Catfights in romance - good idea or a bad idea?

As a general rule, I'd leave the cat fights to something else, unless the fight serves a bigger purpose than just fighting over a man. I'm pasting a chapter from Last of an Exceptional Breed, the third book in my Legend of Draconis series. The series is adult fantasy, but it has a great deal of romance woven in. Just know that Casey & Renee have a long-standing, on-going, love-hate relationship. And the fight does serve a purpose later on. Yet, on the surface, you might think it's all about Rennin.

Chapter Thirty-three
Trick or Treat
Since Saturday was Halloween, Rennin went into town to get treats for the kids. On the way into town, he tried to call Renée again. Still he received the message that the number was out of range.
Jennifer had agreed to walk around with d'Aubigné. The sight that Rennin beheld when he walked back into his family parlor caused him to use words that he instantly wished he could take back. "What the fuck is this?"
Unaffected by Rennin's outburst, Casey answered, "Costumes for Halloween. I figured since you said I looked like a streetwalker when I wore this before, it would make a great costume." Casey wore the outfit she had worn when Rennin had thrown her out to go back to Columbia.
Rennin looked at Jacques and bluntly asked, "And what are you supposed to be?"
Wearing a purple rayon suit, Jacques looked confused. "Casey said that black men een America often call zeir girlfriends zeir hos, and since she ees dressed like a ho, and I am Haitian and have one black ancestor, zen I am her peemp."
Rennin roared with laughter. "No, Jacques. Decent black men do not refer to their girlfriends as hos. A ho is a prostitute and her pimp is the man who sells her. But if that's what you and Casey want to do, it's your prerogative. However, you will not be a pimp and ho in front of my daughter."
Rennin then turned to Jennifer. "What are you?"
"Oh, I'm just a Goth."
Rennin shook his head. "So long as you don't show up in my biology class looking like that." Rennin squatted in front of d'Aubigné and asked, "And what are you all dressed in flowing white robes? An angel?"
"I'm a virgin sacrifice."
"You're what?" Rennin said, his ire rising rapidly. "Who told you that?"
D'Aubigné started to cry because Rennin had never spoken to her in anger. "I don't know. I just heard someone say it."
Still angry, Rennin took the child by the shoulders and said crisply, "You are not a virgin sacrifice." Rennin rounded on the others present. "Which one of you told her that? It's not funny, not even as a joke. Casey, did you say something like that?"
"No!" shouted Casey defensively.
"Jennifer?"
Jennifer shook her head. "No, Coach. I promise."
Before Rennin could even ask Jacques, Jacques was declaring, "No way, mon. Wif zee hoodoo religion een my country? I am not zat foolish. And I am not a peemp." Jacques swung Casey around. "And you are not a ho. Shange clothes. Go and put on your bellbottom jeans and a head band. You can be a heeppy. I will be a reggae seenger wif a bongo. Zat ees strange enough for zis community."
The child was crying in earnest at that point. "Daddy, are you mad at me? Mommy only yells at me when she's mad at me."
Rennin realized he had been talking very loudly. He softened his voice. "I'm sorry, baby. No, I'm not mad at you. I just do not like the idea that someone told you that you were a sacrifice. D'Aubigné, there are some crazy people in this world who believe that, and they might want to hurt little girls. Let's see if we can change you into an angel right quick. Jennifer, will you, please, find me three coat hangers and a piece of white string and bring them into the kitchen? I think there's some kite string in the garage."
Rennin took his daughter into the kitchen and placed her on the counter. Jennifer came in with the coat hangers and kite string. Rennin straightened one hanger and made a loop in one end. He handed aluminum foil to Jennifer. "Wrap this around the hanger for a halo. Leave about two inches at the bottom uncovered." Then, he twisted the other two hangers together by the hooks. He covered the two triangles formed by the hangers in foil. Jennifer handed him the halo, which Rennin attached to the hooks and finished covering with foil. He made two slits at the apex of the triangles where they were joined and ran the white kite string that Jennifer had found through them. Then, he turned to d'Aubigné who watched attentively and lifted her off the countertop. "Stand up for me, baby." Rennin tied the string around her waist. The halo floated over her head, and she had two silver wings. Rennin rubbed her chubby little cheek with the back of his hand. "There. That's much better. Now, you're Daddy's little angel. Go look in the mirror in the bathroom. And guess what."
"What, Daddy?"
"I've decided to walk around with you to show you off. Grandpa will have to pass out the treats all by himself."
D'Aubigné went to see her new costume in the full-length mirror and came downstairs with Casey and Jacques who were new creatures as well. Rennin nodded. "Okay. That I can have walking around with my daughter. Much better. Thank you, Jacques." Rennin took d'Aubigné's hand.
"Are you going, too?" asked Casey.
"Oh, yeah," answered Rennin curtly.
"Renneen, may I speak to zhou een private one moment before we leave?" Jacques asked.
"Jennifer and d'Aubigné wait on the porch for me," Rennin commanded gently. "Casey, you go, too."
Rennin spoke to Jacques. "I apologize if I offended you."
"No," said Jacques, "zat ees not what I weesh to speak about. Zank zhou for making zeengs more clear. My Engleesh ees steel not very good. I do not always understand slang. I deed not understand zat 'ho' ees slang for whore, and peemp ees not a word zat I was familiar wif. I want to speak about zee voice d'Aubigné heard. Renneen, I feel an eveel force here. I am very familiar wif voodoo and hoodoo rituals een my country. Most are just mumbo jumbo and harmless. However, some of zee deepest eveel practices of Santeria eenvolve sacrificing virgins, usually young children, especially een my country because girls lose zeir virginity early een life. Perhaps I was sent here to warn zhou. I do not know, but guard d'Aubigné closely. I sense zat zhou disapprove of my relationsheep wif Casey, also. Ees eet because of zee deefference een race, or do zhou have some feeling for her as well?"
"The feeling I have for Casey is wanting to wring her neck. She's my wife's sister. Did she tell you about d'Aubigné?"
"Yes, she told me zee circumstances surrounding her conception and birth and zat she lied to zhou and her fazer. Casey steel has much growing and learning to do. Steel, I zink zhou feel a need to protect her from me. I care very much for Casey. I would not intentionally hurt her. Yet, zhour and Mr. McClarty's reservations are reasonable. Contrary to Casey's concept of zee future, I have not offeecially proposed to her. We have discussed zee possibility. Much depends on government eessues een my country. Right now, I am not safe een my country. I am hoping for asylum een America. An outside force has moved een and my life would be een danger eef I returned home because I know of zis man's supernatural eenvolvement, and he ees a reech, powerful American. I must say I am surprised zat zhou have not scoffed at my belief een zee supernatural."
"I don't know what to think about you anymore, Jacques." Rennin released a long huff. "At first I thought you were, perhaps, using Casey to get a green card. I'll be honest. I would never scoff at supernatural occurrences. I have experienced some myself. And if you knew the history of my family, you might ask yourself if the evil you feel is standing before you. Thank you for your candor. I'll watch d'Aubigné closely. But, believe me, Casey is all yours if she's truly what you want."
Rennin took his daughter trick or treating.
+++
D'Aubigné found the treasure trove in candy and other Halloween treats. Rennin allowed her to pick out four things to eat before bed. Casey said, "Oh, come on, Rennin. Let her stay up and have some fun."
Rennin cut Casey a look of reproach even as d'Aubigné climbed onto his lap. "Help me choose, Daddy. I know I want a Reese's."
"That's one," said Rennin.
"May I have two chocolate things?"
"You may have any four items you choose because it's a special night, except gum. Save the gum for tomorrow."
D'Aubigné chose a package of M and M's, a Hershey bar, and a Milky Way. Her saucer like eyes looked at Rennin. "Daddy, may I pick one out for you, too?"
"For me? Do you want me to share your candy?"
"Yes, sir."
"All right. Which one do you think I'll like?"
The child shook her head the same way Rennin did. "Daddy, you must think I don't pay attention to you. Every time you buy me a Reese's at the gas station, you get a Snickers." She promptly handed her father a Snickers bar.
Rennin popped the bite size candy into his mouth and mumbled around it, "You are very bright and observant. Thank you."
D'Aubigné put her hands on her hips. "Daddy, don't talk with food in your mouth."
"Yes, ma'am," he replied after he swallowed. "Now, eat your treats and off to the bath." Rennin turned to Jennifer. "Do you want to help her and wash some of that off you at the same time?"
"Not this time, Coach. I am going to a party at the old grist mill. Bobby Willis is supposed to pick me up at 7:30." Jennifer looked at her watch just as a car honked. She started out the door.
Rennin walked with her. "Nope. If he can't walk to the door to get you, you can't go with him. Are you sure your parents know you're going?"
"Yes, Coach. My mom is actually the one who suggested Bobby and I go to this thing. You can call them if you like." Bobby honked the horn again.
Rennin hollered from his porch, "Willis, if you want to go on a date with this girl, you have to walk up here and get her. Behave like a gentleman or you get fifty wind sprints Monday."
Bobby Willis, who was a sophomore nose tackle, thanks to Rennin's suggestion, jogged to the porch steps. He had on a skull cap with what appeared to be a hatchet buried in his head. Rennin laughed, "Which one of Jason's victims are you?"
"Probably his thousandth."
"Is there booze at this party?"
"Not for me, Coach O'Rourke. I heard what Coach McClarty said he would do to us if he caught us drinking. We have two more regular season games. I plan to be on the team when we go to the playoffs."
"Good answer," said Rennin, "but, Bobby, if anyone is drinking or if there's any trouble, call me, and I'll get you home. I'll take care of you." He lowered his voice. "And I won't tell Coach McClarty. I know what he does when he's pissed."
"Thanks, Coach."
"Have a good time, but stay out of trouble."
Rennin closed the door as d'Aubigné, ready for bed, descended the stairs. Behind her came Casey in a golden negligee.
"Casey," began Rennin.
"I'm going to bed, Rennin."
Rennin knelt down to his daughter's level and squeezed her tightly. "Umm. You smell good."
"Mommy put some of her bath oil in my water. Mommy's going to tuck me in tonight. Is that okay, Daddy? I still want my kiss though. I guess I have to miss the story tonight."
"Yes, it's fine for Casey to tuck you in. Did you brush your teeth?"
"Yes, sir. I brushed extra long because of all the chocolate."
"That's my girl." Then, he kissed her forehead and both cheeks and pecked her on the lips before they rubbed noses, the bedtime routine they had developed. Rennin hugged d'Aubigné one more time and whispered in her ear, "I love you. Sweet dreams."
The little girl called over her shoulder as she went up the stairs, "I love you, too, Daddy. Good night."
It dawned on Rennin that was the first time he had actually said aloud to his daughter he loved her.
+++
Rennin poured himself a shot of expensive imported Irish whiskey and tossed it back. He poured another which he had in his hand as he flipped off the porch light. Casey descended the stairs, still wearing the golden negligee. "What now?" asked Rennin irritably.
"I have something I want to say to you."
"It will keep 'til morning when you have on clothes." Rennin tossed back his second shot.
"But I want to say it now. Are you drinking again?"
"I wasn't before you came. But I think I am now." Rennin poured another drink and went to lock the door.
A car door closed unnoticed outside. Renée, wearing a pink frilly maternity top and matching slacks, a play tiara, and carrying a toy magic wand in one hand and her briefcase in the other came onto the porch.
Casey dogged Rennin's steps. "What?" Rennin demanded before he could turn the dead bolt.
"I have a question for you. What was that stunt this afternoon about the pimp and ho?" Casey ran her hand up Rennin's arm. "You can't handle a little competition?"
Rennin clutched both of Casey's wrists, spilling the whiskey all down the front of her negligee. Simultaneously, the front door opened and Renée said, "Trick or treat."
Renée froze in mid-thought as she saw what could have been interpreted as an intimate moment. Meanwhile Jacques clutched the banister at the top of the stairs as he watched the scene below him. Five seconds elapsed, but it could have been an eternity, before Renée exploded like a lit cannon. "You bitch!" she screeched in fury. Casey took a step back from Rennin. Before she thought about what she as doing, Renée hit Casey full in the face with her briefcase, knocking her to the floor and breaking her nose. Renée literally straddled Casey and pounded her head against the wood flooring.
Casey screamed, "Get off of me." Her face was covered in blood, but she threw punches back at Renée, striking her across the cheek and eye.
Rennin wrangled Renée off Casey and held her firmly. "Let go of me! I'm going to kill her!" Renée screamed. The next thing Rennin knew Renée had given him a back fist to his nose and was on top of Casey again.
Rennin saw Jacques at the top of the stairs. "Don't just stand there. Help me."
Jacques replied, "But I want zee blonde lady to kick Casey's ass."
"Jacques, please," coaxed Rennin. "Can't you see that she's pregnant? Think about the babies."
Rennin pulled Renée off Casey again, but he pinned her arms to her sides this time. Meanwhile Jacques jerked Casey to her feet.
Casey bawled, "You broke my nose, you bitch."
"That's not all I'm gonna break," Renée yelled back as she continued to struggle against Rennin's restraint, trying to stomp his feet, which caused the two of them to jump up and down like Mexican jumping beans as Rennin kept his feet clear of his angry wife's attempts.
"Renée, settle down," Rennin commanded.
Casey continued to whimper about her nose. Rennin shot at her, "Shut the fuck up, Casey, before I turn Renée loose on you. Both of you be quiet before you wake up d'Aubigné and Gerald," he finished through clenched teeth.
Renée stopped struggling and stood with her arms folded across her chest, breathing  heavily.
Casey tried to step behind Jacques. "Do not get behind me," Jacques said angrily. "I saw What zhou deed to Renneen. Vhy, eef zhou are een love wif heem, deed zhou bring me here to meet zhour fazer and introduce me as zhour fiancé? Casey, he ees married to zhour seester. How could zhou do somezing like zat to zhour seester?"
Jacques started up the stairs as Casey called out, "Jacques, wait."
"Do not profess zhour love to me, l'enfant. Eet ees a lie. Zis weekend has shown me one zeeng. Zhou love only zhourself, eef zat. Perhaps my purpose for being here zis weekend lies een zee conversation I had wif Renneen earlier. Now, come. I will attend zhour wounds, but we are no more. Zat zhou brought upon zhourself."
Rennin and Renée were left standing in the foyer. Renée finally dropped her arms and started crying. "Rennin O'Rourke, what is she doing here?"
"I tried to call you last night and this morning."
"I must have been in the air. I wanted to surprise you. I even dressed as close to a pixie as I can right now."
Rennin gathered Renée in his arms. "You were a lot more than a pixie. I recall Tinkerbelle tried to kill Wendy for the love of Peter. And you definitely surprised me. Come to the kitchen."
She followed her husband to the kitchen. Rennin made an ice pack. "Put this on your cheek. You're gonna have a black eye."
"No, I can't," cried Renée. "I have court on Monday."
"I'm sorry," said Rennin. "I'm sure you'll find a way to use it to your advantage. I have never seen you in a rage, not even with Celina Ortiz. Remind me not to set you off. So, what did you do, fly in for the weekend?"
"No," said Renée. "I'm here to stay."
"Yes!" said Rennin triumphantly. "For that treat, we have to go to church tomorrow. There's a neat little nondenominational church here where I take d'Aubigné to Sunday school."
"Well, do you mind if we go to bed? Will you, please, bring in my luggage?"
"You go on up. I'll bring your things."
Rennin stopped in the foyer. "Renée, do you want your briefcase? It's open and the contents are all over the floor."
Renée walked in and started picking up the contents of her briefcase.
"What's that?" asked Rennin.
"Fairy dust. And I put a spell on it, too."
Renée walked up the stairs without further ado.
+++
Renée slept peacefully, but Rennin tossed and turned until he finally sat up in bed. It was almost midnight. Rennin heard a voice call his name. He started to turn on the lamp.
"Don't turn on the light. It would only disturb Renée. You can see me just as well without it." A shadowy figure of a benevolent-looking gray-haired man appeared at the foot of the bed.
"Stay calm," said the voice. "It was you who said you were not afraid of a ghost of your relative. I mean you no harm. I am Shane O'Rourke, at least I was. I'm proud to see you escaped James Wilburn. I was not so lucky. Yes, I would like to see him pay for his crimes, but I think you already know he's not what he appears. Neither is he what you have thought. There are others like him even among those we think we know. Be discerning. Protect those you love, even Casey, for you do love her in a strange way. Even tonight you will be called upon to battle a touch of evil. The battles will become increasingly difficult. Draw strength from the ancient beings. You have sensed them all your life, just as I did. There will come a time for you to decide to be a man of this world or of something unknown. Last, do not be surprised of what blood flows in your true love's veins. She is of Celtic origin. She has not admitted to herself the deep magic that flows within. Finally, form a hedge of protection around your girls, all three of them." The ghost paused as he saw Rennin's mouth open.
The apparition lifted a finger to its wavering lips. "Oh, you didn't know. Remember what d'Aubigné said she was for Halloween. Do not take that omen lightly. It has been over four hundred years since the spirit sought one of Quazel's bloodline. No matter how diluted, d'Aubigné is of that blood line, and so are any other daughters you might have, but your firstborn is special. You will be amazed when you find out how special. Now, I can rest in peace for I have delivered to you, the last of an exceptional breed, what you need to know."
As the specter disappeared, Rennin's phone rang.

Re: Catfights in romance - good idea or a bad idea?

Janet, that is one hell of a fight- and one of the woman is pregnant too! Yes, at it stands now, it would seem to be a simple case of two women fighting over a guy. So if you make it more than just a fight as the story developed, it's good writing IMO - make readers think one thing, but missing what it really is about in the process! smile

I haven't heard of any other kind of catfight- all of them seem to be over one guy or another. Sigh. Not classy ever. And although it's (relatively) more acceptable for guys to fight, it's still stupid IMO.

Re: Catfights in romance - good idea or a bad idea?

I've got nothing to add here, except I agree with everything already said. No cat fights over guys. Women fighting each other for other reasons and/or "higher" motives is okay, especially if women in combat is part of the culture (as often happens in fantasy). But no guy is worth going to blows over with another woman, imho. If I were to hit a chapter with that sort of fight, I would put the book down and not pick it up again.

Re: Catfights in romance - good idea or a bad idea?

KHippolite wrote:

What if the MC gets paid to beat other ladies in the ring and merely chooses to follow pattern in her personal life?

IMO, your and others may disagree, in the ring is okay, but outside, anyone but the MC i.e. the antagonist will get away with this kind of behaviour. We/readers don't want perfect characters, but this, if taken too far, may be a flaw in an MC that would be very hard to forgive (in a romance novel) given the negative connections women especially has towards female-on-female fights over guys. Uncontrollable jealousy and looking for trouble will be easier to accept and should give sufficient opportunity for growth etc., I think.

So I still stand by my point - as long as the MC defends, and doesn't start the physical confrontation, it should be okay.

To all the guys in the group - it would be interesting to know what you think about women physically fighting over a guy (for pure in-case-you-never-know purposes of course!).

Re: Catfights in romance - good idea or a bad idea?

Personally I think it depends on the story. I've read some 'dark' romance, light romance, heavy romance, and it could possibly fit, especially in the 'dark' romance. Let me define what I mean by 'dark.' It's not the color of skin but the emotion evoked. Recently I read a story, Three Two One by JA Huss, that focused on a girl who'd been kidnapped into the slave trade and had to be reconditioned to understand it was wrong. It was a romance and very dark. So, if there is a cat fight in a story, I'm sure it would help build to the emotional peak/change of the protagonist. The goal is to take the main character and somewhere have a pivotal point in their life that they have to overcome. The more emotion the better, but don't make the main character someone that the reader hates - there has to be some redeeming qualities or mystery to keep the reader going.

I've read stories where there were mild cat fights that mostly involved throwing food, pillows, mud, or something equally harmless where in the end they fall down in laughter after they've screamed it all out. The more ridiculous the items thrown, the more gripping it all is when the meat of the argument is reached. Take for example the pivotal point from Steele Magnolia's. When they're in the graveyard screaming at each other and someone pushes Wheeza forward and says, 'use her as a punching bag, we've all wanted to hit her.' The instant flop from heartbreaking emotion to laughter is something people never forget and will make your story memorable.

All in all, only have what you need to tell the story without fluff and filler to meet a word count quota. There is no right or wrong as long as it pushes the story forward instead of taking it to left field.

Re: Catfights in romance - good idea or a bad idea?

PByrd wrote:

I've read stories where there were mild cat fights that mostly involved throwing food, pillows, mud, or something equally harmless where in the end they fall down in laughter after they've screamed it all out. The more ridiculous the items thrown, the more gripping it all is when the meat of the argument is reached.

I stumbled on a Jerry Springer show this weekend ... Philisha's idea is way better! big_smile

Re: Catfights in romance - good idea or a bad idea?

janet reid wrote:

I stumbled on a Jerry Springer show this weekend ... Philisha's idea is way better! big_smile

OMG, Janet! I can't believe you stumbled on that show! Talk about a train wreck that could be the basis for many a dark romance.

Re: Catfights in romance - good idea or a bad idea?

Girls can fight Girls, and Women can fight Women, and Girls can fight Women, and Women can fight gay men. But if you want a real "cat fight" you will have to really go out of your way to convince the reader that they should still respect your heroine after that shredding of dignity. Especially if said fight is caused by arguing over a man.

Re: Catfights in romance - good idea or a bad idea?

Women and girls do fight over men, it may not happen often (nor is it a productive thing to do) but it does happen. There is a first time for everything and once in a while we need to break some rules if only to learn it doesn't work... or maybe it does. I am actually considering this as a challenge...