Topic: Why Writers Love to Hate the M.F.A

Interesting article in the NY Times on M.F.A. programs. Has anyone received an M.F.A.?

http://nyti.ms/1GO7fkh

There were a couple of sections I found particularly interesting:

At the core of every program is the writing workshop, the so-called Iowa model because it originated there. In its strictest form, it works like this: Classmates evaluate and write detailed comments about students’ work, then sit around a table and “workshop” the piece. The writer sits silently while classmates comment first on what is working, then go back around to comment on what is not. The instructor weighs in. Only then can the author respond.

In the workshop, writing is deconstructed and put back together. Relationships are formed. A skilled instructor can point out flaws and suggest techniques it might otherwise take years to figure out. “You develop a keener sense of your readers,” Ms. Russell says. “When 14 people tell you something isn’t working, you listen.”

Sound familiar?

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Re: Why Writers Love to Hate the M.F.A

I attended the U of Iowa summer program a couple of times.  Even in a week, you learn an awful lot.   Of course learning what you need to do it and learning to make it work yourself are different things.  But it's still a big jump.

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Re: Why Writers Love to Hate the M.F.A

Basically this is what we do here and I do in my writers' groups. That is one reason I don't read other reviews of a piece until I finish mine. I don't want to be influenced. But when 12 people do point out something (IF they haven't read each other's comments beforehand) then it is a point to look at closely. The hard ones are when 6 say YEA and 6 say NAY.

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Re: Why Writers Love to Hate the M.F.A

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

That is one reason I don't read other reviews of a piece until I finish mine. I don't want to be influenced. But when 12 people do point out something (IF they haven't read each other's comments beforehand) then it is a point to look at closely. The hard ones are when 6 say YEA and 6 say NAY.

Right, Janet.  If you read other reviews first, you tend to see only what other reviewers have pointed out.  It's important to give your own fresh opinion.

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Re: Why Writers Love to Hate the M.F.A

Yes it sounds very familiar, Sol. Hmmm ... it makes me wonder if we should all get honorary M.F.A.s after we complete a  year on tNBW, maybe even less then a year. I learned so much when I was on here from June 2006 to when I started my hiatus 2010 or 2011. And now I'm learning even more with the great changes you made to the site.

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Re: Why Writers Love to Hate the M.F.A

j p lundstrom wrote:
Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

That is one reason I don't read other reviews of a piece until I finish mine. I don't want to be influenced. But when 12 people do point out something (IF they haven't read each other's comments beforehand) then it is a point to look at closely. The hard ones are when 6 say YEA and 6 say NAY.

Right, Janet.  If you read other reviews first, you tend to see only what other reviewers have pointed out.  It's important to give your own fresh opinion.

This is so true. This is why I never read someone else's review before I do my own. In some cases I'm even reviewing a second or third draft, so those prior reviews are most likely irrelevant now, accept for what a review pointed out that they liked about the piece. So after I'm done, I'll skim through those types of comments to see what others liked about it.

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Re: Why Writers Love to Hate the M.F.A

I've actually thought about the site offering an M.F.A.now that it has the tools. But I'd want to do it so that instead of having to pay $50,000 for the degree, students would pay much less. I need to work out the economics. I'd also have to get accredited I guess and that would take some time.

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8 Reply by mikira (AKA KLSundstrom) (edited by mikira (AKA KLSundstrom) 2015-04-09 15:13:30)

Re: Why Writers Love to Hate the M.F.A

That would be so wonderful if you are able to do that. My mind started churning through everything that would be needed to get accredited and I have a good feeling you have some of those pieces in place already. Such as licensed writing instructors.

I'm looking forward to the day I can sign up for that course.

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Re: Why Writers Love to Hate the M.F.A

SolN wrote:

Interesting article in the NY Times on M.F.A. programs. Has anyone received an M.F.A.?

http://nyti.ms/1GO7fkh

There were a couple of sections I found particularly interesting:

At the core of every program is the writing workshop, the so-called Iowa model because it originated there. In its strictest form, it works like this: Classmates evaluate and write detailed comments about students’ work, then sit around a table and “workshop” the piece. The writer sits silently while classmates comment first on what is working, then go back around to comment on what is not. The instructor weighs in. Only then can the author respond.

In the workshop, writing is deconstructed and put back together. Relationships are formed. A skilled instructor can point out flaws and suggest techniques it might otherwise take years to figure out. “You develop a keener sense of your readers,” Ms. Russell says. “When 14 people tell you something isn’t working, you listen.”

Sound familiar?

Only vaguely! wink

Quote Post 9

10 Reply by max keanu (edited by max keanu 2015-04-09 16:54:13)

Re: Why Writers Love to Hate the M.F.A

Writing can get “workshopped to death,” Mr. Shivani says. He also points out that criticism is coming primarily from peers who “are people who don’t know anything about writing, which is why they are in the program.”

LOL!

Interesting article. I'm indirectly involved with accreditation of courses at a university and it is sometimes a complex and harrowing adventure for the creators. For some courses to succeeded, the planets must be in perfect alignment in the academic, fiscal and bureaucratic universes.

SO many M.F.A. programs abound, on line and of-the-real flesh. If tNBW offered a holographic M.F.A., the work-shopped approach would be unique and less suicidal for the timid; novel-novices with those best-seller dreams and schemes fermenting and bubbling-over in their ambitious juggernautia (new word?, lol).

A Skype'd M.B.A.? ... sounds almost Dickensian or Orwellian or Memphis Traceian, eh?

I like the idea of the  "low-intensity " program that meets in Paris for a week to get the show off to a grand (Hemingwayesque ?) start. Paris in the spring: romance, faahionistias runaway adventures and deep discussions about Proust or Zola and for the really adventurous, Charlie Hebdo... Ah, the writing life.... and death!

Perhaps participants in tNBW M.B.A. could meet in NYC with Paul Auster as the teacher. I'd pay-up for that gig.

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Re: Why Writers Love to Hate the M.F.A

Even if it's not M.F.A. sessions, I think that live feedback sessions in the site would be great. If the site has the tools to connect everybody in a live chat at the same time, and assuming there's a moderator, I bet a nice and productive level of discussion could be achieved too. For example, groups of 5 writers meeting once on twice a week on 1 to 1.5 hour sessions discussion the work of one of them. This means that every 5 meetings your work is reviewed again. The group could meet for 25 weeks (roughly 6 months) or 12 weeks  (3 months) depending on whether meetings are once or twice a week, which means that each writer would be reviewed 5 times. At the end of the time the group may renew for another period or dissolve. In the latter case the writer can join another discussion group.

The site can charge a fee for the usage of the site's technology and the moderator's time (if the moderator is provided by the site) and there can be a set of rules looking forward to make sure that value-add discussions take place. What do you think?

Kiss,

Gacela

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Re: Why Writers Love to Hate the M.F.A

max keanu wrote:

Writing can get “workshopped to death,” Mr. Shivani says. He also points out that criticism is coming primarily from peers who “are people who don’t know anything about writing, which is why they are in the program.”

LOL!

Interesting article. I'm indirectly involved with accreditation of courses at a university and it is sometimes a complex and harrowing adventure for the creators. For some courses to succeeded, the planets must be in perfect alignment in the academic, fiscal and bureaucratic universes.

SO many M.F.A. programs abound, on line and of-the-real flesh. If tNBW offered a holographic M.F.A., the work-shopped approach would be unique and less suicidal for the timid; novel-novices with those best-seller dreams and schemes fermenting and bubbling-over in their ambitious juggernautia (new word?, lol).

A Skype'd M.B.A.? ... sounds almost Dickensian or Orwellian or Memphis Traceian, eh?

I like the idea of the  "low-intensity " program that meets in Paris for a week to get the show off to a grand (Hemingwayesque ?) start. Paris in the spring: romance, faahionistias runaway adventures and deep discussions about Proust or Zola and for the really adventurous, Charlie Hebdo... Ah, the writing life.... and death!

Perhaps participants in tNBW M.B.A. could meet in NYC with Paul Auster as the teacher. I'd pay-up for that gig.


I really enjoyed reading this post. SO, I decided to quote it for you. You've been tagged by quotes:)

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