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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

I'm considering trying to further streamline the explanation for the discrepancies between the Bible and the events in the story world. One way is to simply start the story with opening words like: In an alternate universe....  Or, I could explain in an intro that there are many interpretations of Revelation, ranging from literal to figurative, and my story is a fantasy interpretation that will try to end at the same place as the Bible.

Many of the discrepancies between the story and the Bible disappear once Connor's true identity is revealed at the end of book one. Even more differences disappear at the end of book three, which ends at roughly the same place as the Bible, depending on how you interpret certain events.

I would think by the time I get to the end of book three, if you've read that far, you probably enjoyed the trilogy enough not to worry about any leftover discrepancies that I couldn't (or chose not to) explain away.

Doing this eliminates the whole need for the "roads through time" mindwarp. It's just easier to explain in a sentence or two in an intro that you're not in Kansas anymore.

Thoughts?

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

I would suggest just plough through to the end of book 3 to lay out all the complexities in between. Or... canonize book 1 so that book 3 is forced to live in the established rules.

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

I had in mind to write key scenes from books two and three before I publish book one. That allows me to determine what changes, if any, I need to make to book one before I canonize it.

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

There are two routes to explaining the discrepency: inside the story and in the author's words outside the story.  It sounds like you are leaning toward the latter: What if we are reading something wrong?

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

njc wrote:

What if we are reading something wrong?

Do you mean what if the reader is reading something wrong despite the author's words outside the story?

My reason for wanting to do something other than my existing Roads of Time writeup is to simplify the opening and the assumptions the reader has to make going into the story. It should make the ancient letter discovered in the Vatican archives shorter and less convoluted. There are only so many things I want to ask the reader to accept as up front assumptions before the story even begins (e.g., Satan issues the challenge, God accepts, that changes the future sufficiently to deviate from the Bible, explain why didn't the Bible change to reflect the new timeline, etc.).

There's a lot to be said for the simplicity of "In an alternate universe...." It would allow me to do pretty much anything I want and leave the details of trying to explain things until later (over the course of the three books) and perhaps leave some of the details to the reader's imagination.

So:
In an alternate universe....
The ancient letter says discrepancies will be explained by the Lord.

Since I'm deferring explaining some things, I may not even need to mention an alternate universe outside the story. If it's important to the story, perhaps the characters can figure it out (or at least speculate correctly).

Voila!

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Following is what I ended up with. Heckuva lot shorter and simpler than it was. Also, I don't need to mention an alternate dimension at all, at least for now.

Julius Longinus wrote:

A remarkable consequence of the Last Challenge is that, as time marches toward the end of history, there will be an inevitable number of discrepancies between the real events of our world, which includes the Lord’s return as a child, and the events previously prophesied in the Bible.

But we also know Scripture to be free of error. Is there, perhaps, another way to interpret Revelation so that it matches key events to come? When the Bible describes the Lord’s return in the form of a man, both in Revelation and elsewhere, could it mean he will return as a boy who grows into a man before the coming of the Day of the Lord? Or is there an alternate explanation?

When I asked these questions of the Holy Spirit, he assured me that Our Lord, upon his return, would explain these things so that we may all understand them.

That gives me plenty of flexibility going in to start making changes to the events already prophesied in the Bible. And since the Holy Spirit has promised that the Lord will explain everything when he returns, I've got lots of time to do so.

1,332 (edited by George FLC 2025-02-24 23:25:18)

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Dirk B wrote:

I have a question about an alternative way for Christ to be reborn. Rather than the story claiming that he shed his old human body to enter the newborn one, I'm toying with having someone (probably Connor) eventually explain that, he kept his old human form (which many Christians think he would never separate from) and that he also entered a second body as well (i.e., Connor). That would mean anything Christians currently believe about the return of the adult Christ will be unchanged and won't need explaining. All I add is that he is simultaneously present in a second human, which of course is just a lie.

Since I put the story on a different timeline, I can of course change anything I want, including having the adult Christ shed his original human form to be reborn. But I'm wondering if it would be more believable that his spirit also entered a second body, much the way the Holy Spirit exists in the bodies of all Christians. That would mean most (all?) of the existing prophecies in the Bible would still be true.

George/K, what do you think?

I know I'm late but I will comment anyway. I like the comparison with the Holy Spirit. There is a pattern and hence Connor can claim a similar pattern. I also like the it's-all-a-lie-anyway approach. You're right. You can say anything you want.

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Thank ye kindly.

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Dirk B wrote:

I would think by the time I get to the end of book three, if you've read that far, you probably enjoyed the trilogy enough not to worry about any leftover discrepancies that I couldn't (or chose not to) explain away.

Thoughts?

Not sure about this one. Sure, do the figurative as mentioned. That gives lots of leeway. I wonder if you will lose some people based on how far you stray from the truth (figurative or not).

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Given how figurative Catholics generally believe Revelation to be, I may annoy them because of how literal my interpretation is. Remember, many Catholics don't believe there will be a physical battle between Satan's forces and those of Christ. That's just one of the ways they interpret parts of the ends times. Similarly, Catholics I've talked to recently about the War in Heaven believe it too is figurative.

I do actually follow the Catholic belief of no final war between Christ and Satan. Instead, there will be such a battle, but it will be between Connor's forces and those of Satan shortly before Christ returns.

Besides, to write the ending I want for the trilogy, the lake of fire has to be a portal to other worlds where mortal sinners are scattered to "punishment" worlds. The greater the sins, the harsher the world. And since all these worlds lie"within" the lake of fire (ie behind the portal), and since the mortal sinners can never leave those worlds, they are in effect in the lake of fire forever.

The remaining humans got to Heaven, where they will dwell with God forever. Before God leaves, he tasks Connor with ruling those worlds, not merely as their king, but as their shepherd. He is to help those people become increasingly holy. There's a lot more to it, but a key reveal by God to Connor is that everything Connor has undergone in his life has been to prepare him for his ultimate role (King and Shepherd).

Connor asks him if he'll ever get to Heaven, and God smiles and tells him that the Father chooses his champions wisely. In other words yes.

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Besides, I won't lose any readers at that point since they've paid for the book, presumably liked the first two, and have read almost until the end of the third. Don't forget, there will be an author's note at the beginning of the books clearly identifying what they are and the fact that they may not necessarily get every last detail identical to the Bible, but then the Catholic interpretations are light-years away from the literal text.

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Despite that, Seabrass thought things in the Holy Land were too predictable. He suggested I kill a few of the guards, but I couldn't do that since that would make Connor a murderer since he controls the events in the HL.

You could have a "third party" working against both Connor and Campagna. This would be a team of specialists from some religion interested in thwarting the bargain/wager and is willing to use violence to prevent both Christ's return and AC's ascension. They would need to hate Christianity so basically want the good guys and the bad guys to fail.

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Thanks, but that would add a lot of complexity to a story that already has so many elements beyond what's apparent to the reader over the course of most of book one. The first of the true complexity is revealed at the climax, when the basic conspiracy is revealed.

The complexity grows deeper in book two (e.g., Connor sharing the soul of Adam, the beginning of end time disasters, the identification of an incoming comet that will eventually destroy all life on Earth, incorporating other religions into the story (although not in a huge way), Connor learning about the genetic breeding that enslaves him to Satan, the attempt to retake the Vatican, and so much more).

The most complexity is in book three (more end time disasters, the rescue mission into Hell, Connor deviating from that plan, the confrontation at Armageddon between Connor's forces and Satan's, the return of Christ, Connor finally having to settle the Last Challenge, Connor potentially having to throw himself into the lake of fire to save others, eventually being taken to the top of a mountain to meet God the Father, to learn that he's expected to lead thousands of "punishment" worlds, full of history's mortal sinners, to holiness, etc.

Besides added complexity, I can't imagine adding yet another important group to the story and being able to do them justice since there is so much already going on, both visible and behind the scenes.

One alternative way to do it might be to have Satan doing things in the Holy Land that even Connor isn't aware of. Satan already places demons at strategic locations throughout the Holy Land to help Connor further the idea that he is Christ. Some of them could cause unexpected events to occur that result in deaths (mainly guards) even Connor didn't expect. That might trouble him enough to at least begin to question what he's doing by the end of book one even though he doesn't yet know about the gene that enslaves him.

I haven't really thought enough about how best to make things less repetitive in the Holy Land yet. I have a similar problem in Rome in that the investigations led by Campagna and De Rosa in book one are too episodic. They don't really build toward an increasingly interesting/thrilling investigation. With each investigation, Campagna should be getting closer and closer to the truth. Instead, each crucifixion in Rome happens, is investigated, leads to a plan, the plan fails, lather rinse repeat. The clues that build up after each crucifixion may have to be ones that Satan himself leaves behind in order to continue the cat & mouse game while Connor builds toward being Christ.

I have to work out solutions to those issues in both Rome and the Holy Land sometime soon, though. As I have to start writing v2 of the first murder investigation very soon, probably within the next three chapters.

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

I had a cool theological discussion with Gemini tonight, where we discussed a fictional return of Christ as a child. In that context there really is no way based on the bible to rule out the Lord returning as a child. For example, he could come back as a child, grow into a man, and then fulfill all the expected prophecies. Wording such as him "returning on a cloud" can easily be interpreted symbolically as him "returning in some supernatural way", not necessarily riding an actual cloud. One quirk is that everyone going to heaven will have a physical body. Perhaps the new heaven should be an actual planet (e.g., a second Garden of Eden).

We then discussed the idea of the Lord returning as a child in addition to keeping his original form (in other words two physical bodies). Basically the same as the way the holy spirit can exist in all Christians simultaneously. Christ, the original adult, would return to fulfill all the expected prophecies, whereas the boy might come in advance to gather (and save) more followers before final judgement. That's how Connor can claim to be the Lord returned to fulfill the requirements of the Last Challenge. I'll modify the ancient letter from Longinus to support Connor's argument.

One other idea I had relates to Earth. It will be renewed (made pristine). The Garden of Eden would be restored too. If the Earth is pristine and saved humans require a physical place for their bodies to co-exist with God, perhaps the restored Earth should double as the new heaven, especially Eden. Thus, the new heaven and the new Earth become one.

The portal for Connor and his peacekeeping forces to use to rule the kingdom of punishment worlds could still be on Earth too. Connor could enter Eden from time to time to consult angels, saints, maybe even God.

1,340 (edited by George FLC 2025-03-18 16:27:22)

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Dirk B wrote:

I had a cool theological discussion with Gemini tonight,

Really? Wow. I'm impressed with this alone. How much prodding did you have to do before it "understood" what you wanted?
Be careful! Are there digital demons lurking about AI?

1,341 (edited by George FLC 2025-03-18 16:24:58)

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Dirk B wrote:

I had a cool theological discussion with Gemini tonight, where we discussed a fictional return of Christ as a child. In that context there really is no way based on the bible to rule out the Lord returning as a child. For example, he could come back as a child, grow into a man, and then fulfill all the expected prophecies. Wording such as him "returning on a cloud" can easily be interpreted symbolically as him "returning in some supernatural way", not necessarily riding an actual cloud. One quirk is that everyone going to heaven will have a physical body. Perhaps the new heaven should be an actual planet (e.g., a second Garden of Eden).

1. Why not just have him grow at a fast rate as you suggest? Can you accomplish everything with that?
2. We will probably be 4D creatures. Jesus traveled through a wall in Acts. We should be able as well. We will have bodies but different than what we have now.
3. Perhaps a cloud of glory. Lots of light, flashes of lightning, etc.

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

What's a 4D creature?

Connor has to grow at a normal rate. There would be people around him who are not necessarily part of the conspiracy. And he winds up in Romano's youth seminary (orphanage) from age 7 on.

Besides, I've pretty much settled on the boy being a separate body/soul inhabited by the Lord at the same time as he inhabits his original human body. Much as the Holy Spirit can do when it co-exists in many Christians at once. Also, don't forget, it's all a lie.

Although I don't yet know if the Lord returning in two different bodies is more or less credible than him returning solely as a boy. In either case, the ancient letter can help but I don't know if that is enough for the reader to suspend disbelief. I have a hunch him returning only as a boy is more believable since there's no real precedent for his appearing as two beings simultaneously.

EDIT: Come to think of it, there's no real precedent for either, but readers will easily understand the concept of Christ returning as a child, although they may not buy it. The beauty of the way it unfolds, though, is that some characters will think he *may* be Christ, and the events of the story will slowly "prove" that he *is* Christ.

Him existing simultaneously as two humans is a harder sell although it avoids completely the discrepancies between the "story world" and the Bible's prophecies.

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

No real prodding needed. I only had to tell it my questions were for a fictional story because it was too skeptical of my arguments for why the Lord could return as a child. Once it knew it was for a story it even started making suggestions for different ways I could use the concept without me even asking for that.

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

I dabbled  with 4D and 5D creatures in my main series but in the rewrite, planning to leave it out. Waaay too hard to explain when a character unties a perfect knot by an easy tug

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Naming contest: Connor and others are being bullied at the youth seminary/orphanage by four older boys. In his mind he tends to think of them first and foremost as little antichrists, but also via several variations of the antichrist theme: the toddlers of sin, the beastlings from the sea, the bastard sons of perdition, etc. I'm also trying for a variation of the abomination of desolation. Possible alternatives include:

abomi-rrhoids of desolation
hemorrhoids of desolation - I really like that one
abomi-brats of ...
abomi-nitwits of ...
abomi-nuts of
abominables of
abomi-tots of - I love this, although I already have toddlers of sin
abomi-twits of - shorter than abomi-nitwits and just as good
wretchlets of
abhorlings of

I lean toward hemorrhoids, abomi-tots, and abomi-twits at the moment.

Preferences?
Dirk

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Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

(name of prominent boy)-gang

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

I like just plain simple beastling but I found:
Beastlings are a race of animal-human hybrids that live in Beasting Village of western Toto'haha

So, I don't know if beastling of the sea is appropriate. But I've found an issue like this before, and it caused no alarm with you. So, keep beastling either simply as that or perhaps something like beastling-creature.

I like wretchling as well but found:
Wretchlings are adaptions of Hollow Men

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Hemorrhoids are good especially in terms of variations:
Hemorrhoid-gang
Prince Hemorrhoid for the leader
Hemorrhoids of desolation (as you noted)
Demon hemorrhoids
Hemorrhoids from Hell.

Also, hemorrhoids are something people can identify with! They can even get pictures - YUCK!

1,349 (edited by George FLC 2025-03-19 13:12:13)

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Kdot wrote:

I dabbled  with 4D and 5D creatures in my main series but in the rewrite, planning to leave it out. Waaay too hard to explain when a character unties a perfect knot by an easy tug

Hey Kdot,
Did you ever formally define a 4D or 5D critter? Obviously, they are not limited to 3D issues. And I assume that a 4D critter can go through 3D stuff like walls I'm 3D and can go around or go through a 2D plane.

1,350 (edited by George FLC 2025-03-19 13:18:26)

Re: The Gathering Darkness (the Connor series) - Dirk B.

Dirk B wrote:

What's a 4D creature?

From Copilot
Appearance: A 4D creature would appear very different to us. Just as a 3D object casts a 2D shadow, a 4D object would cast a 3D "shadow" in our world. We might see a constantly changing 3D shape as different parts of the 4D creature intersect with our 3D space

There is more if you're interested!