Topic: Growing TNBW

This thread is to capture posts and discussions related to steps needed to revive the site. I may close the Migrating thread for the time being. Below are a few posts copied over from the Migrating thread, including some of the things Sol has indicated can be done relatively easily. Naturally, time is of the essence.


EDIT: This is the old reviving thread. I renamed it to reflect where we are in this process. Also, I added a post for Sol at the end of this thread today (Saturday, August 31).

Re: Growing TNBW

Copied from the Migrating to Booksie thread.

Dirk wrote:

Thanks, Sol. As I mentioned in my first post, it was my understanding that you didn't feel you could keep running both sites indefinitely.

Combine that with the fact that the New Books (new chapters) scroll is virtually at a standstill, and that we keep losing long-term members without converting new ones to permanent membership, something has to change. Add in the lack of bug fixes (not many needed), minor enhancements (even fewer needed), and quick turnaround time for user support, and there's no obvious way to hang on to trial users. Contests may help, but to the best of my knowledge, we've kept almost no one who joined following the last one. Naturally the crash cost us users as well, but the trickle out has continued since then. And the more experienced users (among the best reviewers / mentors) we lose, the less value-add we have to offer over bigger sites, including Booksie.

I don't know yet which extra support functions you're going to transition to me, but I hoped we'd find a way to transition user support (or at least make me a first contact for the easy stuff, and I could escalate to you if I don't have the ability to help them).

The rest is out of my control, although I've been discussing with other members what we could change to gain and keep more users. In addition to the things above, it includes policy changes you didn't want to make in the past (e.g., a 30-day trial so people really get to know us and the site before being asked to pay money, 30 points up front so trial users can post roughly 3 chapters and get reviews (to assess the quality of them and compare themselves to those reviewers) before they're forced to do them too (which can be quite intimidating), and making it easier for everyone to gain points or spend fewer points). Those of us who have been around a long time (not many left) have enough points to post War & Peace several times over, so it would most help new/newer users to make it easier to gain points to post.

As we all know, the real way to succeed on this site is to develop and maintain a network of reciprocal reviewers, and you can't do that unless you get to know people here and consistently trade reviews with them (something trial users need to understand going in). To do those things, you don't *really* need points. As a result, they're largely irrelevant, so why not make it easier for everyone who needs them to get them?

EDIT: I just checked the ratio of how much it costs to post a work vs. how much that work pays. It's currently 5:1, and Alan some months ago mentioned that it seemed like it took more effort (points) to post after the crash. Sol once told us in the forums (some years back) that he thought it was 4:1. Since the feed of new work is at a standstill and most people have left, why don't we overcompensate and make it 3:1?

Marilyn and I were just talking about a system yesterday that has a ratio of roughly 3:1 (3 points to post a piece of writing of any size, 1-2 points paid to each reviewer depending on length of review, although, I believe, full points are only paid for a short time (maybe a week?) while the posted piece is in an active queue; after that it pays less. But their "inline" comment system is a joke/painful compared to ours. Still, they claim that 85 users were on the site when I checked (no clue if they count those who are always logged in) and 650 the day before.


Why not lure some of that traffic this way, with a great up front trial, faster support, timely fixes/minor tweaks, a terrific inline comment system, and a points system that is less onerous than others? Add some advertising from Sol and a few contests, and if the site still doesn't pick up, then we can at least say we did everything we could. I'd be very surprised if the above changes didn't have a strong positive impact on permanent membership.

Re: Growing TNBW

Copied from the Migrating to Booksie thread:

Sol wrote:

Hi Dirk,

Thanks to you and everyone else for those suggestions. I'm open to keeping TNBW going in its current form but agree there need to be some changes. I can make all of the changes you suggested. They are all relatively easy to implement. I do wonder if 30 days is too long but let's see. I also wonder if 30 points might be too much for the community to handle. Members will be posting but not receiving as much feedback. Especially if the ration is also decreased. The net effect of this will be to suck reviews out of the system. But maybe we need to get more people posting first and then we can dial back the points.

Let's also plan to launch a contest. If anyone has thoughts, let me know. Maybe a short story contest based on an image? Those have always been popular.

Sol

Re: Growing TNBW

Copied from the Migrating to Booksie thread:

Dirk wrote:

Keep in mind, 10 points yields many fewer reviews for trial users these days than it used to. If, instead, they get to post three chapters or stories, they may get more reviewers overall or the same reviewers multiple times. Either would help.


I think those of us sufficiently motivated to keep the site alive will simply have to do more reviewing of new users, at least until there are many more reviewers to share the load. With a 30-day trial, we can, hopefully, work them into our workloads.

Also, we all should point trial/new users at a forum post entitled "How to Get the Most Reviews of Your Writing" that we put together a couple of years ago about things users can do to increase the number of reviews they receive. I put it back up after the crash (thank goodness for the Way Back Machine!). I made it sticky in both Premium and in Writing Tips & Site Help in case anyone wants to have a look and give me additional feedback.

Re: Growing TNBW

I think changing the ratio may help a lot. I mentioned to Dirk there are sites (like Critiquematch) that don't require points at all

6 Reply by Sideman (edited by Sideman 2024-07-12 19:18:08)

Re: Growing TNBW

I pretty much agree with Barry. Changing the point ratio (I would suggest a 3:1 ratio as someone else already mentioned). I'm not as fond of the "no points" method as, in my opinion, requiring at least some review points required for posting would help to identify members who are more serious about their involvement with the site. Perhaps rewarding new members with 20 bonus points after they've given three regular reviews of at least fifty words or three inline reviews.

The great majority of us who are still here will probably hang around indefinitely. But we need to entice new members and then retain at least half of them. And we, as standing members have to make a concentrated effort to review new members quickly.

I want to make clear that I love the inline reviews and hope they remain for the life of the site. But a couple of my friends who have thought about posting some of their writing came over to look at the site. When they saw all the blue highlighted areas of an inline review were taken aback, stating, in general, "Oh my God! They're just shredding that guy's work. Wow!". I don't know how to address that, or even if it needs addressing, but they were intimidate by that. I explained that were merely suggestions and meant to be helpful. Nonetheless, they remained intimidated by it.

I'd hate to see TNBW disappear. Although I have life issues (most of you know about them) that keep me away from the site for extended periods, I always know this site will be here when I have the time to engage. And that's a huge comfort for me.

Anyway, my thoughts about things.

I'll be back to posting and reviewing either tonight or tomorrow.

Keep writing, everyone. Many of you have wonderful and entertaining writing skills.

Alan

7 Reply by dagny (edited by dagny 2024-07-12 18:35:55)

Re: Growing TNBW

Alan--
I am praying for you and your wife.
Take care,
dags smile

Re: Growing TNBW

Thanks, Dags! It's always a pleasure to hear from you, regardless of the reason.

Alan

Re: Growing TNBW

Sideman wrote:

I'd hate to see TNBW disappear. Although I have life issues (most of you know about them) that keep me away from the site for extended periods, I always know this site will be here when I have the time to engage. And that's a huge comfort for me.

Alan

I hope things are better for Di. Please give her my love. I hope you're able to take a break now and then because being a caregiver is without a doubt one of the hardest and least appreciated jobs on the planet.

Hugs to you both,
MJ

10 Reply by Sideman (edited by Sideman 2024-07-12 23:46:55)

Re: Growing TNBW

Hi Marilyn,

I sent you a pretty long test a couple of weeks ago. I assume it never got to you. I wanted to let you know how happy I was that you're on the road to recovery and the outlook is good. I had stage 3 colon cancer in 2014 and I'm doing fine. As ornery and sassy as you are, you'll probably outlive me - Ha! Hope you and David are doing well in all other respects. Di and I luv ya bunches - you're kinda special to us, ya know.

I'll pass on your well-wishes to Di. Sher's napping right now, but I'll pass on your greeting when she awakens.

Since hospice care is in progress, my load has been lightened to some extent. I've used some of that extra time to do some deep cleaning around the house and, to just rest. I've cancelled or put on hold several of my music contracts in order to have more time for fun and rest. Getting back to writing and reviewing will be nice. I just hope Sol can keep the site alive for the foreseeable future. It would be a tragedy if it goes under.

You take care and keep getting better. Big ole bear hugs to both of you,

Alan & Di

Re: Growing TNBW

Sideman wrote:

Hi Marilyn,
As ornery and sassy as you are, you'll probably outlive me - Ha!

And me! LOL

Re: Growing TNBW

Following are the bugs extracted from our Bugs & Maintenance Requests thread that ought to be fixed before the next influx of trial users (preferably before the start of the contests):
1. Label changes on the Quickee interface to prevent new users from leaving themselves quickees that then, naturally, never get answered. See bottom of page 1 of the Bugs & Maintenance Requests thread for details/solution.
2. Label changes needed to prevent users from accidentally creating new books when they intended to add a chapter to an existing book; see my post timestamped 2024-05-19 03:24:56 on page 2 of the Bugs & Maintenance thread for details and the suggested solution (ignore the discussion about this problem that followed the post)
3. Security certificate complaints from my security software (Bitdefender) when clicking the links in TNBW-generated emails. This problem applies to every type of email notification I've received recently (received a TNBW message from another member, received an inline review from another member, and so-and-so has published a new posting); see my post timestamped 2024-04-13 04:15:10 on page 2 of the Bugs & Maintenance Requests thread, as well as the post right after it for details
4. Frequent timeouts while using the forums will log the user out of the site; if the user was writing a new forum post, that one will be lost (even the back button on the Chrome browser won't take you back to it); if the user was replying to an existing forum thread, the reply will be appended to the intended thread, after which the site kicks you out; this doesn't just happen to me; one new user mentioned it to me a while ago, so it probably affects anyone who writes long forum threads (I use the forums for brainstorming related to my books, so those can be quite lengthy)
5. Leaving a closing comment on an inline review with no inline comments in the body of the review confuses the site; the only way to see and access that review is via the usual email sent out by the system to the recipient of the review; once that email gets deleted, access to the review is lost for good; it's unlikely to be happening a lot, although it can be prevented entirely by the site not allowing the user to save an inline review with no inline comments

EDITs:

6. Would it be possible to change the red "draft" label that members see if they have a draft review already in progress for someone else's chapter/story to a button? I've yet to encounter a new user who knows how to find their draft review(s) as it's simply not obvious. Even long-term members sometimes forget where to look. Elysse ran into this most recently. Either that, or add a tooltip to the red "draft" label of where to find it (Home Page->New Inline Review Replies).

Re: Growing TNBW

Dirk B. wrote:

Following are the bugs extracted from our Bugs & Maintenance Requests thread that ought to be fixed before the next influx of trial users (preferably before the start of the contests):
1. Label changes on the Quickee interface to prevent new users from leaving themselves quickees that then, naturally, never get answered. See bottom of page 1 of the Bugs & Maintenance Requests thread for details/solution.
2. Label changes needed to prevent users from accidentally creating new books when they intended to add a chapter to an existing book; see my post timestamped 2024-05-19 03:24:56 on page 2 of the Bugs & Maintenance thread for details and the suggested solution (ignore the discussion about this problem that followed the post)

Thanks, Dirk. These two have been problems for quite a while now, especially the Quickee one. Good job with keeping tabs on all this!

MJ

Re: Growing TNBW

Thanks Dirk. Keep on debugging.
George FLC

Re: Growing TNBW

Two "bugs", if they are, what I see:

Seems too easy to lose content.  Very frustrating to spend time on inline reviews when a mere touch can lose what you've written with no way to retrieve it.  I might see "draft" in red, but can't retrieve what I've written.  I don't think it's my computer, 'cause I've not seen that happen any where but here.  The same also happens when sending or responding to messages.

I would like to see a way to message all one's readers, also with an invisible button for those who want to be held in secret. For instance, next weekend, I will not be available.  I'll be away.  I don't want to bring my computer with me. So I won't be able to review anyone, nor answer anyone (my phone is semi-reliable).  It would be nice to send a group message, even though I think everyone knows one another anyway.

Also, perhaps a way of saying, politely, "unable to accept more readers at this time." 

For myself, I so appreciate those who've followed, but at this point, I have to refuse people, because I just don't have the time.  Some kind of a button that says that would be helpful, I think.  I feel guilty when someone reviews, and I'm unable to review back, because the time isn't there. 

Otherwise, I'm pleased with the site. smile smile  All the best, E. smile smile

Re: Growing TNBW

Hi Elysse.

If you see draft in red on a previously started inline review, the way to access it is from the Inline Posted tab of the My Reviews screen. Go to your home page and, below your picture, click on New Inline Review Replies. You should see it listed there, marked as draft. From there, you can open it and resume reviewing. It's a goofy place to have to look for it. The question comes up a lot. I'll add it to the list of issues for Sol.

The best way to prevent new reviewers from reading your story is to put a BIG NOTE in the content summary for your book and/or right at the top of your initial chapter. I just did the same for "The Rise of Connor v1". I replaced the prologue with a big note that asked people not to review it as it will soon be replaced with v2. I also made all the early chapters (1-15) inactive, to further reduce the chance of anyone new accidentally reviewing it.

Please let me know if you need any help with the latter. It involves some of the lesser used functionality of the Edit wizard but is fairly straightforward to do. I'll post your suggestions to the ongoing maintenance and minor enhancement threads in the Premium forum.

Thanks
Dirk

Re: Growing TNBW

Quoting Dirk--"The best way to prevent new reviewers from reading your story is to put a BIG NOTE in the content summary for your book and/or right at the top of your initial chapter. I just did the same for "The Rise of Connor v1". I replaced the prologue with a big note that asked people not to review it as it will soon be replaced with v2. I also made all the early chapters (1-15) inactive, to further reduce the chance of anyone new accidentally reviewing it..."

How are you going to revive this site if you don't accept new reviewers?

When I joined this site there was a group of writers who made sure every new member who posted had at least three reviews. Most of them have moved on. I suggest we start giving new members at least three reviews of their work.

I know those reviews encouraged me to continue on with TNBW. I knew I needed a lot of credits because I was a writer on steroids, and I reviewed my ass off. I reviewed people that I knew wouldn't review me because of the genre I chose. I reviewed whole books because they told good stories. I think I did 1000 reviews in that first year and I received half as many reviews back.

To me it's a simple fix. You want to revive TNBW, review new members. Make them feel welcome. I know that in those early years the welcome I got from the members made me want to spread the word about the site.

dags smile

Re: Growing TNBW

dagny wrote:

How are you going to revive this site if you don't accept new reviewers?

I have plenty of newer works that people can review, including Archangel Syndrome, but I'll never get v2 of Connor going if I keep getting pulled back to v1. And I hope to begin posting v2 by late August.

The emphasis going forward is indeed on new members (can't revive a site without them). Everything from the policy changes Sol is making (20 points instead of 10 for trial users, increasing the length of the trial to two weeks, up from one, and easing the ratio of how many points the site pays per review vs. how many points the site charges to post); specific bug fixes that new users keep running into; and proposed contest changes (see the separate sticky thread on that here in Premium, which Sol is still thinking about).

Giving plenty of high-quality reviews to trial/new members is also part of it.

Re: Growing TNBW

Dirk--

Thank you for clearing that up. And for letting me know what Sol is prepared to do to help this site.

Thanks again,

dags smile

Re: Growing TNBW

Dagny, when you have a few moments, could I ask you to have a look at the sticky thread I'm maintaining in Premium and in Writing Tips/Site Help entitled "How to Get the Most Reviews of Your Writing"? Is there anything you'd like to see added or changed as it relates to poetry?

Re: Growing TNBW

For those who haven't had a chance to look at it, there's a (sticky) post in Premium called


"How to Get the Most Reviews of Your Writing"


based on one we had up before the Great Hiccup of 2023. An identical copy also exists in Writing Tips & Site Help.


Please point all trial/new users to it to help them maximize what they get out of the site.


Also, feel free to post replies to either copy of that thread with additional suggestions.

Thanks
Dirk

Re: Growing TNBW

Dirk B. wrote:

Dagny, when you have a few moments, could I ask you to have a look at the sticky thread I'm maintaining in Premium and in Writing Tips/Site Help entitled "How to Get the Most Reviews of Your Writing"? Is there anything you'd like to see added or changed as it relates to poetry?

Dirk--

Too bad Michael Jackson left, you could've asked him about poetry. I write free verse for fun. Anyway, I'm the wrong person to ask. With all my work, I put it out there with the attitude if they read it, fine, if not, that's okay, too. I was never a fan of a lot of reviews. You get ten reviews, two of them are going to say the same thing, four of them are going to disagree with each other, and if you're lucky you'll get four reviews you can use.

The only suggestion I have for new members on how to get the most reviews of their writing is the same one I got when I joined: Post, read and review.

smile

Re: Growing TNBW

Thanks

Re: Growing TNBW

Following are the bugs extracted from our Bugs & Maintenance Requests thread that ought to be fixed before the next influx of trial users (preferably before the start of the contests):
1. Label changes on the Quickee interface to prevent new users from leaving themselves quickees that then, naturally, never get answered. See bottom of page 1 of the Bugs & Maintenance Requests thread for details/solution.
2. Label changes needed to prevent users from accidentally creating new books when they intended to add a chapter to an existing book; see my post timestamped 2024-05-19 03:24:56 on page 2 of the Bugs & Maintenance thread for details and the suggested solution (ignore the discussion about this problem that followed the post)

Okay, we'll work on these fixes next. We have adjusted the credit ratio, changed the trial period to 2 weeks, and increased the points a new members gets to 20 points. I'm going to launch a new contest on Friday.

Sol

Re: Growing TNBW

Thank you, Sol. That's great news.

Just so there's no confusion, the original list of bugs is higher up in the thread. There are six in total. Marilyn only quoted the two most famous ones.

Thanks
Dirk