Re: The Archangel Syndrome

Some of the green can go. For example, mention of the treaty vs the weapon's development doesn't come up again for what... 15 chapters?

Dirk B. wrote:

Below is the proposed replacement for those idiotic mattergy weapons in the opening battle.

Aussie said, “She’s charging her new cannons.”
“Analyze!” St. James said [snapped].
“Based on their energy signature, I believe those are hyperspace weapons, able to fire at a target through higher dimensions. Whatever energy makes it through hyperspace to its target would effectively bypass our shields, which don’t exist there. Development and use of such weapons is strictly prohibited by the Neuer Mond Treaty.
“Since when has that ever stopped the Imperium? Weaknesses?”
The beam such a weapon fires is known to spread out very quickly in higher dimensions, obeying the inverse cube law. By the time it hits the target back in spacetime, it has lost considerable energy to space. As a result, Such weapons require enormous energy to fire a blast strong enough so that the energy that hits the target still has sufficient punch to penetrate a ship’s hull.
“The Hercules must be bypassing its powertron’s safety limits  to concentrate sufficient energy to fire, risking a breach. Many of her other systems are dropping off to compensate.”

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

I'll take another crack at trimming it. And of course it's been done in Star Wars 7, when Starkiller Base blows up the Republic's capital planet from light years away. They fired through hyperspace. Screw it. I'm doing it anyway. My hyperspace cannons work at a much more granular level (ship to ship rather than planet to planet). After the Death Star, the folks at Lucasfilm kept trying to outdo themselves in the books with ever more dangerous weapons.

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Re: The Archangel Syndrome

You could make this action risky by adding known and unknown likely consequences: energy spilling back and damaging the source vessel or others near it, energy reflecting back into the weapons and the power source behind them, perhaps with energy stored and falling back like a heavy weight that slips loose, or energy venting in unknown ways through the extra dimensions, as a consequence of loss of accuracy at higher power, or of overloading space itself, or of some ensign who won't stop chewing gum.

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

Thanks, njc. Energy kicking back and causing a potential explosion onboard the Hercules (the firing vessel) could be very useful. I had previously used the idea that firing the (mattergy) cannons could overload and damage the Hercules's powertron (power source), but since I now have the ship firing through hyperspace, some kind of unpredictable blowback would serve to render the technology unusable in the long run, regardless of how powerful the powertrons eventually become. That fits well since I don't want this particular tech to remain a part of the story beyond the initial battle.

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

mattergy? Wouldn't that just be plasma?

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

One thing I don't understand is that hyperspace is usually referred to as a higher dimension. Shouldn't that be dimensions (plural)? You still need three of them. Four if you count time (hypertime?).

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

Whose hyperspace though? Every writer will give you a slightly different nuance of it.

For example in many dimensional travel tales one is referred to as "returning to one's home dimension" not realizing it might be plural

83 (edited by George FLC 2024-01-01 16:29:31)

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

Dirk B. wrote:

One thing I don't understand is that hyperspace is usually referred to as a higher dimension. Shouldn't that be dimensions (plural)? You still need three of them. Four if you count time (hypertime?).

Are there alternatives to hyperspace or does modern math/tech require it? The Wrinkle in Time had a 5th dimensional tesseract. I don't know if that's the same as a wormhole or hyperspace. And CS Lewis in the Chronicles of Narnia used a ring crafted in Atlantis and it took you to a garden that connected to other worlds. At least that's what I remember without looking it up. Star Trek used warp speed.

Did Dune ever explain their drive mechanism?

Is there something else to use? Brainstorm time!!!!

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

One definition of hyperspace I read usually involves extra dimensions where the laws of physics are different than in our dimensions, allowing ships to go faster than light. It's a concept invented by an SF author in the early 1900s and used by many others, including Asimov in his Foundation novels.

I'm considering calling mine extraspace, but it probably fits the definition of hyperspace too. Specifically, all objects that exist in spacetime also exist in my version of hyperspace, which is merely a fourth "physical" dimension of those objects. If you hit an enemy ship's fourth dimension with an energy beam fired into hyperspace, that foreign energy is expelled from hyperspace at the point of collision between the energy beam and the ship's fourth dimension.

I don't actually mention hyperspace when it comes to the operation of my stardrives. I simply call it teleportation and leave the "how" to the reader's imagination. But I do refer to hyperspace (or extraspace) for how the hypercannons work. The firing ship doesn't itself enter hyperspace, but the cannons are able to fire into it, resulting in an energy beam that bypasses the target ship's shields (which only exist in the first three dimensions) and strikes the hull of the ship.

Dune had a book dedicated to the period/characters who invented their drive mechanism. They went into some details, but I don't recall how much.

85 (edited by Kdot 2024-01-01 19:54:42)

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

George FLC wrote:

Did Dune ever explain their drive mechanism?

Dune uses pleeenty of handwavium on that and just gets on with the story. We're given to understand the ship does not travel through normal space and is in a web of cosmic worm holes that would be impossible to navigate without prescience. We don't get how the ship powers itself there and how it exists, or reads energy signatures etc.

Dune's engine therefore would not support a cosmic space battle. The only ship battles I can recall involve the ship entering the atmosphere and operating as a normal object (Except the No-ships, but even the Dune characters would call them magic)

Edit: Dune's power and beauty is part of the original writer's abstractness. When the son came along and explain how the Tleilaxu cloning tanks work, all the magic of the father's build ended in logical but crushing realism.

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

I don't actually mention hyperspace when it comes to the operation of my stardrives.

I think you're onto something profound here. I just need some time for that to percolate.
It's kind of like I don't mention teleportation in my main series because I wanted to define it my own specific way

87 (edited by Dirk B. 2024-01-02 02:54:59)

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

I called it 4D space, short for the fourth dimension (another "physical" dimension, not time). No reference to hyperspace at all. All matter in the universe exists in all four dimensions, including us. You blow something up in one dimension, there's a good chance you'll destroy it across all four dimensions.

I keep running into problems though. Every time I think I've accounted for all obvious plot holes, and I write it up, I find new plot holes.

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

I'm considering calling mine extraspace

Both this and 4D space are current terms (4th dimension nominally considered time and extra space is what I get when I clean my closet).

Consider "Pentaspace"  (example only -- don't use these ideas lol)

Example: The ship's P-Drive fired up, bringing the ship close to pentaspace translation.
(Reader: "Translation" sounds like this might be hyperspace-like)
(Writer: Similar only. Objects in p-space can be observed from outside)

Example: The ship turned, aiming its pentacannon. St-J had her ships race to keep it broadside. The beam couldn't be stopped by shields or anything in the physical dimension.
(Reader: Ah, so a beam can achieve a sort of hyperspace velocity? So, then they can send a low-power signal home for help?)
(Writer: No. High diffusion rate keeps it within x km)

Every time I think I've accounted for all obvious plot holes, and I write it up, I find new plot holes.

If you had your own terms, you could fudge the rules around any plot hole. I think that's the problem you're running into. Trying to use hyperspace would lock you in as much as using "tardis" because in both cases it ties your hands to someone else's imagination. UNLESS you simply use hyperspace and redefine it as you need rather than use someone else's definition (A rough count in wikipedia easily finds over a dozen variations)

89 (edited by Dirk B. 2024-01-02 06:49:51)

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

I punted hyperspace as a term hours ago. I also ignored the fact that the fourth dimension is often considered to be time. I'll just have to be explicit. To simplify the writeup, I've said that all matter in our normal universe has 4 "physical" dimensions, of which we can normally only experience 3. Also, rather than 4D cannons, I've decided to give the Hercules a huge emitter on the hull, which she can use to open a hole into the 4th dimension of space, through which she can then fire a full barrage of supernova blasts at the unshielded portion of the Colonial ships. Where the extraordinary need for power will come into play is in opening the hole.

Just thought of another plot hole, though. If the Hercules wants to dump huge amounts of power into the emitter, all she has to do is install another powertron just for that (admittedly they're huge and they eat atreidite for breakfast). Then there would be no risk of overloading the existing powertron.  Crap like this has been happening to me all day. Fix one thing, break another. I'm going to bed. I'll try to figure it out tomorrow.

[Censored!]

90 (edited by njc 2024-01-02 08:36:47)

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

But the combined ((tech)) fields might overload local space, or the emitters might interfere with each other in a multidimensional phase relationship.

Did you know that a spectrum is a space of infinite dimension, of the sort called a Hilbert space?   Just throw in Hilbert Phase Space and you can tech-abracadabra almost anything.  Multiple powertrons driving a single load must be aligned in their Hilbert phase space.  Perfect alignment is impossible, and the effect of misalignment grows faster than exponentially with increasing power ... .   (Remember that the factorial grows faster than any exponential in the limit toward infinity.  That's why power series converge.  And the continuous equivalent to the factorial is the gamma function, offset by one in its argument.)

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

Just thought of another plot hole, though. If the Hercules wants to dump huge amounts of power into the emitter, all she has to do is install another powertron just for that

Two good options from njc.

A third, more simple: They generate heat which the ships system have to deal with. Two will make too much heat.
(And unlike star wars would have you believe, you can't vent heat from your core into space; it'll just radiate into the core of the vehicle. You need to build a fluid dynamics engine to transfer all that heat to the hull)

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

Whichever you choose, may I suggest you merely note plot holes and move on rather then go back and try to fix them? That's my current method. VQF had about half a doren (but all the chapter notes were lost in the Great Crash). The one you might recall is where the team moves from Imager's island to the station and Roberta was there but was supposedly left behind. I merely noted at chapter end "continuity oops!" but ploughed forward.

93 (edited by Dirk B. 2024-01-02 15:01:03)

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

I'm going to spend a little more on it. I'm almost done revising the first act, including an upcoming battle at the end of this act that causes Apollo to act. Although later battles don't use the 4D cannons (too dangerous), they use similar tactical maneuvers, which are affected by the first battle. Besides, I have most of it in my head. If I stop now, I'll forget the details (shocking, I know), and have to rediscover everything later.

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

Slight tweak. I've gone back to hyperspace as the name of my story's extra dimension(s). I'm going to be intentionally vague since I don't want to suggest that my extra dimension is in any way related to the 4th spacial dimension of string theory, where the math says the extra dimensions must all be the itsy bitsy curled up ones. If I call mine hyperspace, then it falls into that classic sci-fi category known as "made up crap". The beauty of space opera.

Interestingly, I came across an article where scientists were able to test indirectly for the existence of a fourth spacial dimension, and two different teams using different tests found evidence that suggests it actually exists. It's not conclusive proof, but a cool result nevertheless.

95 (edited by George FLC 2024-01-04 15:04:24)

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

Dirk B. wrote:

Slight tweak. I've gone back to hyperspace as the name of my story's extra dimension(s). I'm going to be intentionally vague since I don't want to suggest that my extra dimension is in any way related to the 4th spacial dimension of string theory, where the math says the extra dimensions must all be the itsy bitsy curled up ones. If I call mine hyperspace, then it falls into that classic sci-fi category known as "made up crap". The beauty of space opera.

Interestingly, I came across an article where scientists were able to test indirectly for the existence of a fourth spacial dimension, and two different teams using different tests found evidence that suggests it actually exists. It's not conclusive proof, but a cool result nevertheless.

Good approach. Go for vagueness and don't worry about the details till maybe later. It doesn't add much to the story anyways, does it?

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Re: The Archangel Syndrome

Dirk B. wrote:

Interestingly, I came across an article where scientists were able to test indirectly for the existence of a fourth spacial dimension, and two different teams using different tests found evidence that suggests it actually exists. It's not conclusive proof, but a cool result nevertheless.

Dirk, do you have a link to that article?  What I've seen recently involves alternate solutions to the General Relativity field equations in which there are two or three timelike dimensions and two or one spacelike dimension, which allows for quantum mechanics' "spooky action at a distance" to emerge within Einstein's framework--and lab work that suggests that these are possible.  I probably posted these before the "blip" but I'll try to find them again if you like.

97 (edited by Dirk B. 2024-01-04 21:04:48)

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

njc, I reread the article more carefully and now I'm not sure what they actually accomplished. Did they simply observe the quantum Hall effect in lower dimensions? The wording in the article is just vague enough and technical enough to be confusing in places (to me in the middle of the night, lol). In hindsight, if they had actually seen something real, it would be all over the news.

Here's the link:
https://bigthink.com/technology-innovat … hysicists/

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Re: The Archangel Syndrome

I don't think that a breakthrough in fundamental physics would interest our journalists half as much as a political scandal or a seahorse romance.  Besides, most of then couldn't pass high school physics, much less get Einstein's 1930s work right.  Heck, they couldn't even get it wrong!  (High school physics: show that the units are consistent in e = mc² .)

I read a mostly excellent popular history of precision.  But in discussing electronics, the author applied something about field effect transistors to bipolar junction transistors, or vice versa.  It shook my confidence in the whole book.  Yes, the topic sounds esoteric, but if you know electronics it's like confusing a steam engine with a diesel engine, or an oil filter with an air filter.

Re: The Archangel Syndrome

njc wrote:

if you know electronics it's like confusing a steam engine with a diesel engine, or an oil filter with an air filter.

Potayto. Potahto. smile

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Re: The Archangel Syndrome

You put cocoa puffs in milk.  You take milk out of coconuts.  There's a difference.