1 (edited by Dirk B. 2020-05-24 23:04:05)

Topic: Subjective point of view

I find this definition interesting. It's from literarydevices.net. Bold emphasis is mine.

A subjective point of view is something based on one’s opinions, perspectives, beliefs, discoveries, desires, and feelings. It has no concern with right or wrong, other than the person’s opinion of what is right and wrong. ... Third person point of view can also be subjective. It is known as “limited omniscience,” in which a writer knows every detail about a character and sees the whole story through that character’s eyes.

This brings to mind an earlier post of mine about an exorcism scene, where my POV character, Father Romano, watched Connor close his eyes and slowly turn his head from side to side, as if sensing something Romano could not. It's the as if (and similar wording) that always annoys me. Without it, I'm told it's a point-of-view slip since Romano can't know with absolute certainty why Connor is turning his head.

My point was/is that Romano has enough information about Connor and the scene to make an accurate guess. It's Romano's subjective POV, and he's entitled to his assumption, right or wrong. If it turns out to be right (it is), then there's no need for as if and the story continues unimpeded. If it turns out to be wrong, that would come out later in the scene anyway (e.g., "Oh, you thought you smelled a fart? I misunderstood."). as if adds nothing unless there's a need to foreshadow that the assumption could be wrong.

Re: Subjective point of view

I don't know the specific passage you're referring to, Dirk, but it's AS IF Father Romano watched Connor close his eyes and turn his head AS IF the boy were sensing something Father Romano could not.

I was being a bit facetious there because I don't think you have anything to worry about here. In the scene, Romano's "assumption" is made perfectly clear by the words AS IF. No need to fret about your prose execution, in my opinion.

If you know what I mean, that is. AS IF smile

Re: Subjective point of view

No, that's not what I meant, John. I'm objecting to having use words like: as if, apparently, obviously, most likely, etc. to avoid a pov slip when common sense says the pov character is making a reasonable assumption based on the information he has available. I follow the herd, but I do so unwillingly. I'm tempted to start breaking that rule in my next draft.

Re: Subjective point of view

People state their observations as fact all the time. I don't understand why its an issue when characters do- or narrators do. I agree with you, Dirk. I've read plenty of publishes works that refrain from strict POV rules, and don't use "as if" or "appeared" etc. Using those words, to me, pull me out of the story. There is no reason a character can't state their observations as facts. They are facts to them, right?

Re: Subjective point of view

If it feels right and sounds right, it just might be right. Of course that's just my opinion. Is that a subjective point of view? Take care. Vern

6 (edited by Mariana Reuter 2020-05-25 15:46:16)

Re: Subjective point of view

My personal opinion is that it all depends on how deep or shallow (how subjective or objective) the POV is.

A narration from a "shallow" or very objective POV may be limited to stating facts. Like, "As Mary entered the house, John noticed her keys tinkling and grimaced. She stared him, as if she could read his mind, and asked, "What's wrong with you?" This is purely objective but still from John's POV. The tinkling is mentioned only because JOHN, the POV character, noticed it, otherwise it wouldn't have been observed. It's also indicated that he grimaced, meaning he somehow disliked it, but without explaining exactly why. When she stares at him, she does it "as if" because the POV character can't actually know what she's doing or taking place in Mary's brain. He can only speculate. In this case, rewriting the line as "She stared at him, reading his mind ..." would be a clear POV shift.

A narration from a "deep" or very subjective point of view comes from the depths of the POV character's mind and much resembles a first-person POV narration, even though in third person. "As she entered the house, the ominous tinkling of the keys set off every alarm in John's mind. The same tinkling he had heard as a kid before his mother's murder. Mary was the right age. Had she done it? Her movements that night had never been fully explained. John grimaced, he couldn't help it. She stared at him, reading his mind. She knew he knew. "What's wrong with you?" she asked in that velvety, menacing tone.

The above narration comes completely from the character's POV. The tinkling is only ominous because he perceives it a so—in the first, objective narration, it's only a sound. The important part is when she stares at him and "reads" his mind. No reader—maybe only a few POV-Nazis—will perceive it a POV shift but clearly as John's guess. Whether or not accurate is another kettle of fish, but it's his guess, not  POV shift. If this little paragraph were a full story, the extra context would provide the answer. If he has been digging into his mother's murder, and Mary, the actual murderer, learns about John's digging, this could have been a moment of truth for both of them because both could have remembered that her keys tinkled when she entered John's house gun in hand. John's grimace, his expression, could have allowed Mary to guess that he has finally put together the whole puzzle and has discovered her. On the other end, her own expression, the staring, accurately allows John to guess that she knows that he knows. This happens in real life all time given the proper context and background without the need to read other people's minds or get into their bodies for a short while.

So, conclusion: whether it's an POV shift or not, whether you need to use "as if", depends on how deep, how subjective, your narration from a particular POV is. Should it be subjective, or "deep", enough, then you can avoid the "as if"s because it won't be a POV shift, but part of the subjective narration. If your narration is more objective, describing the reality through the POV character's eyes, but not involving the POV character's opinion, thoughts, and feelings, then you need to use "as if" to make it clear you're not shifting the POV, but still judging the event with objective eyes.

My humble opinion.

Kiss,
Gacela

Re: Subjective point of view

What Mlle Gacèlle said above. Narrator must establish himself as subjective. The earlier the better.

Adding. CJ's story can get away with this easier than yours because your genre requires your narrator to stay objective. Imagine a CSI: NY story:

Mary looked guilty.
or
Mary gave a guilty look.
or
Mary fingered her purse guiltily.

Right here, even if Mary is not guilty of the crime at hand, she is assuredly guilty of something because the narrator asserts certainity. This is extremely important because if we find out Mary is not guilty (not even of cheating on her taxes or double-dipping at last night's work party), the writer has cheated us. I dare say, it is required of the writer to reveal at some point "Mary is innocent of the crime at hand, but here's why she was acting guilty" -OR- work really hard on a judgemental-subjective narrator who the reader is convinced may be wrong on several points. In so doing, Mary's innocence causes the reader to go "aha, I knew the narrator was wrong"

Again, my example with Mary is significant in a crime story where tiny clues are meant to help the reader ascertain fact. In another genre, it would probably matter less.

8 (edited by Dirk B. 2020-05-25 17:49:44)

Re: Subjective point of view

Law & Order always throws out false leads. Ditto for Agatha Christie and Hercule Poirot. In your examples with Mary, the reader is owed an explanation at some point as to why the detective thought she was guilty. If Mary is completely innocent, I might word it differently, so the reader knows there is some doubt. I did that with the interrogation of Father Coppola. They discussed several times in the early chapters about needing more evidence. Even after they arrest him and he drops dead from a heart attack, Inspector Campagna is wondering if they just killed an innocent man.

My argument has more to do with the little assumptions one can sensibly make based on the POV character's knowledge. Romano knows Connor has special powers, and he's at the exorcism because he may have some insight into why they can't cast out the demons of the possessed woman. When he closes his eyes and turns his head from side to side, it's prefectly reasonable for Romano to assume Connor is sensing something related to the exorcism in progress. There's no reason for the as if. If Romano's assumption is wrong, it will have to be explained and maybe even foreshadowed.

By including as if and similar words whenever there is a reasonable assumption being made, it flags every one of them with an implied: Watch out! This may be wrong! As CJ noted, an author's attempt to make the MC completely objective when the story doesn't require it pulls me out of the story. The deeper the POV of the MC, the more those moments stand out when they shouldn't.

9 (edited by Dirk B. 2020-05-25 18:20:43)

Re: Subjective point of view

Cool. Here's a fix.

Before:

While Andolini continued the rites, Connor closed his eyes and furrowed his brow. He slowly rotated his head back and forth, as if sensing something Romano could not.

After:

While Andolini continued the rites, Connor closed his eyes and furrowed his brow. He slowly rotated his head back and forth, pausing now and then.
What’s he sensing? Romano wondered.

Re: Subjective point of view

or- Romano wondered what he was sensing.

Re: Subjective point of view

Yup. My thanks to all for an interesting discussion.

Re: Subjective point of view

You're welcome.

Kiss,
Gacela

Re: Subjective point of view

Dirk B. wrote:

Cool. Here's a fix.

Before:

While Andolini continued the rites, Connor closed his eyes and furrowed his brow. He slowly rotated his head back and forth, as if sensing something Romano could not.

After:

While Andolini continued the rites, Connor closed his eyes and furrowed his brow. He slowly rotated his head back and forth, pausing now and then.
What’s he sensing? Romano wondered.

Call me a monkey's uncle, but... I actually prefer the BEFORE as opposed to the AFTER. The literature might be technically wrong but, as a reader, it flowed better. For me. Personally. You could try and edit it a bit, maybe. Like: *...Connor closed his eyes and furrowed his brow while slowly rotating his head back and forth; the boy's neck like a fulcrum attached to a subject being subjected to arcane forces Romano had never known...*

Or something like that. I dunno.

I know that I don't know a lot of things which, according to Hoyle, makes me wiser than the average sniper. Or maybe it just makes me a wiseass. I dunno.

Re: Subjective point of view

Also, there's no POV slip if the POV character is making an observation. Regardless of how speculative the POV character's observation may be.

Jesus. I hope I'm being helpful. Probably not. Sorry.

Re: Subjective point of view

I'll send you to fight it out with the point of view police the next time it comes up.

16 (edited by j p lundstrom 2020-05-28 22:44:06)

Re: Subjective point of view

My turn.  Here we go--

Imagine you're the sheriff. Look at Mary. Can you tell by looking at her that she's guilty of a crime? NO.

Now imagine you're writing a story from the sheriff's point of view. Taking his POV, you have to go on what he knows. Since he doesn't know if she's guilty, you can't write that Mary did something guiltily, because the sheriff doesn't know that for a fact. Yes, I know history is full of examples of lawmen who behaved as if they knew someone was guilty, so they arrested (shot, hanged) them. If your sheriff says or thinks Mary's guilty, he's one of those bad guys.

Or could be the sheriff is one of those emotional guys who shoots first and says sorry later. That's for you, the author, to decide.

In the next chapter, you can take Mary's POV and write that she does something guiltily, and even what she's done and why she acts and feels guilty, because now you're in her head. Could be something totally unrelated to the crime. Maybe she's having an affair, or she hit somebody with her car and drove away, etc., etc.. (Watch Dead to Me on Netflix.)

So, even if you're not writing in first person, you've taken sides, and you can't know what the other team is thinking.

Unless you want to write Sci Fi and your character reads minds. Then go right ahead.

JP

Re: Subjective point of view

j p lundstrom wrote:

So, even if you're not writing in first person, you've taken sides, and you can't know what the other team is thinking.
JP

You don't have to know what the other team is thinking, but it's subjective POV, so my character is allowed to assume something as fact without my having to hit the reader over the head with the fact that it's an assumption. Anyway, it had an easy fix as noted above. Remains to be seen how many of these I can purge from my writing going forward. I'm currently reading Paul of Dune (from the Dune sci-fi series), and it's loaded with qualifiers like obviously, clearly, apparently, etc. They stick out like sore thumbs.

Re: Subjective point of view

Dirk B. wrote:
j p lundstrom wrote:

So, even if you're not writing in first person, you've taken sides, and you can't know what the other team is thinking.
JP

, and it's loaded with qualifiers like obviously, clearly, apparently, etc. They stick out like sore thumbs.

Wait a minute!

I never said the sheriff can't assume what's going on in Mary's head. After all, he's only human (unless you're writing sci fi), and as humans, we make assumptions or come to inaccurate conclusions about people all the time. As a writer, you do want to expose and assess the human condition.

The operative word is loaded. Some words state facts, and others are loaded with judgement. So, words like clearly, apparently, and obviously indicate the sheriff's judgement or assumption about Mary. THEY'RE FINE. The words to avoid are the ones that have the sheriff concluding Mary's guilt without proof. It may be a fine line, but it's our job to tread it carefully. That's what we signed up for when we became writers, or wordsmiths, if you will.

But here's the thing: as a reader, I don't think the use of a phrase like 'Mary jumped guiltily' (or happily, or nervously, or sadly--all unsubstantiated conclusions) is going to stop me from reading on, if it's a good story. So sue me.

I just think we should be aware how much might the pen we wield actually has. After all, leading or loaded statements are what make a president out of an obtuse wannabe.

Well, the power is yours. Use it wisely.

JP