1 Topic by Dirk B. (edited by Dirk B. 2019-09-15 00:20:31)

Topic: Do I need any commas here?

Not quite sure I need any commas in this sentence, but I thought I'd ask. Maybe before observing?

Fourteen-year-old Connor sat cross-legged on the ground observing the early evening sky turned orange by the setting sun.

Quote Post 1

2 Reply by njc (edited by njc 2019-09-15 01:19:43)

Re: Do I need any commas here?

Need?  What is the criterion of need?  Some stylebook?  Or helping the reader find the most important breaks in the grammar flow?  If the latter, I would place one before 'observing'.  The other grammar breaks lie within the sections that are separated by this comma.

Any reason for 'observing' instead of 'watching'?  Is 'early evening' needed, given that you tell us of the color and the setting sun?

Quote Post 2

Re: Do I need any commas here?

Thanks, njc. I need early evening to make it clear to the reader that there is still enough time left for the whole scene to play out (at least an hour before darkness). Needs tweaking. If the (whole) sky is already orange, there isn't enough time. And, yes, watching is better.

Thanks
Dirk

Quote Post 3

Re: Do I need any commas here?

Fourteen-year-old Connor sat cross-legged on the ground, watching the early evening sky turn orange with the setting sun.

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5 Reply by Temple Wang (edited by Temple Wang 2019-09-15 06:20:11)

Re: Do I need any commas here?

Think about it: 
Same sentence without the trimmings:
Connor sat watching the sun.

Would you really write “Connor sat, watching the sun.”?

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6 Reply by njc (edited by njc 2019-09-15 06:08:20)

Re: Do I need any commas here?

But the trimmings are what freight the sentence, hiding its global structure.  They are what would make us pause in speaking as we compose them, and what we hear and interpret as structural clues when we parse the sentence to decode its structure.

And I might put the comma in anyway.  Say it aloud; do you not pause before 'watching'?  Why do you pause?  Because of the structural break in the grammar flow.

Yeah, I know, Temple.  We never agree.  I don't think we'd even agree that we disagree.

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7 Reply by Temple Wang (edited by Temple Wang 2019-09-15 07:22:07)

Re: Do I need any commas here?

njc wrote:

But the trimmings are what freight the sentence, hiding its global structure.  They are what would make us pause in speaking as we compose them, and what we hear and interpret as structural clues when we parse the sentence to decode its structure.

And I might put the comma in anyway.  Say it aloud; do you not pause before 'watching'?  Why do you pause?  Because of the structural break in the grammar flow.

Yeah, I know, Temple.  We never agree.  I don't think we'd even agree that we disagree.

Actually, I didn’t draw a conclusion (nor opine).  I put Dirk’s question in a different light and posed my own question to give him another way to think about it.  I don’t really have an opinion.  It’s Dirk’s sentence, and if he likes a pause there, he should put it there.  He’s the conductor.

“Punctuation tells the reader how to hear your writing. That’s what it’s for.”
Ursula K. Le Guin

“Freight the sentence”? “Global structure”? “Structural break in the grammar flow”? “Decode its structure”? Lordy, I don’t even know what all that hooey means.  I just write and tell my readers how to read it with my punctuation.  Guess I best whip out my grammar primer and learn about that “global structure” stuff before I embarrass myself ...

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Re: Do I need any commas here?

Ah, you've been spared my tirades on the Matter of Comma.  I'll not burden you now but to say that I agree with Le Guin's declared position.  All the hooey is just the machinery and minutia.  But the gestalt emerges from the detail like the forest emerging from the trees.

I better go before I start to play Zen.  And embarrass myself.

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Re: Do I need any commas here?

Nope.

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