26 Reply by njc (edited by njc 2018-02-21 04:44:12)

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

Lynne Clark wrote:

Sometimes, I wish I were still the innocent I was at the beginning of all this. A little knowledge is not only a dangerous thing, it is a bloody pain in the neck.

LOL!  Wisdom is not for the faint of heart.  For some, I think, it is the beginning of courage.  I wonder who said that first?  My guesses: the Bible, a Greek of the Academy, a Stoic, or one of the dismal 19th century German philosophers.

For YA, I think you need to concentrate on the opening and the character opening.  Something familiar, something peculiar ...

Heinlein wrote a number of YA-targeted novels.  His readership might have been more accomplished than yours, but it's worth a look.  The book that comes to mind is =The Menace From Earth=.

Quote Post 26

27 Reply by Lynne Clark (edited by Lynne Clark 2018-02-21 12:00:25)

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

ok, found that as a free read online (first story from the anthology anyways) here http://www.baen.com/Chapters/0743498747 … 47___2.htm along with some other good 50/60s sf stories.  1st person, as with so many, I need third person for this book, for the alternate POVs, but has anyone played with writing in first person, then changing it to third afterwards, retaining the closeness of the 1st?

Quote Post 27

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

Lynne Clark wrote:

As for the demographic of who would love it as it is? yep, you have it on the nail. 40 something women (and men for that matter) who love fantasy. It was never specifically written for the MG age group, I was just told that my writing style (and the lack of sex and violence) would make it more suitable for that age group.

Hmm if you're targeting a demographic for this reason alone, it's probably more of a hindrance than a benefit.

I tend to hover in the background and find creative ways to thin people's casts. Chapter one's are easy... have it so your group isn't assembled yet. I got my group together in chapter 14. I think Amy took an entire book to get hers assembled.

-K.

Quote Post 28

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

Kdot wrote:

Hmm if you're targeting a demographic for this reason alone, it's probably more of a hindrance than a benefit.

I tend to hover in the background and find creative ways to thin people's casts. Chapter one's are easy... have it so your group isn't assembled yet. I got my group together in chapter 14. I think Amy took an entire book to get hers assembled.

-K.

I'm being stupid today.

Which reason did you mean, that my writing seemed suitable for that age group? I've been told recently that my adult stuff is better, but I wonder if that is just that I am writing better full stop. We'll see. I have a lot of emotion invested in this book and I determined to get it right.

group: I'm not sure what you mean by group? Can you expand for me?

Quote Post 29

30 Reply by njc

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

I believe he means the 'ensemble' of characters.

Warning: K's stories resemble Mickey Spillane's =I the Jury=.  Everyone gets killed off.  Sanguinary, not sanguine.

Quote Post 30

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

njc wrote:

Warning: K's stories resemble Mickey Spillane's =I the Jury=.  Everyone gets killed off.  Sanguinary, not sanguine.

And Then There Were None

Quote Post 31

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

njc wrote:

I believe he means the 'ensemble' of characters.

Warning: K's stories resemble Mickey Spillane's =I the Jury=.  Everyone gets killed off.  Sanguinary, not sanguine.

ah, gotcha. I said I was feeling stupid. It is obvious now you say it.

I am spending this morning reading Brandon Sanderson's various lectures on Worldbuilding instead of working.

Quote Post 32

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

p.s. I like Mickey Spillane. I am sanguine about sanguinary, so it might suit. Or make my blood run.

Quote Post 33

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

Which reason did you mean, that my writing seemed suitable for that age group? I've been told recently that my adult stuff is better

It sounds like you're trying to squeeze the story into a certain demographic rather than just tell the tale. There may be some merit in doing just that, but when you say it that way, I wonder a little.

Warning: K's stories resemble Mickey Spillane's =I the Jury=.  Everyone gets killed off.

Not so! I've guaranteed that Firestarter will survive to the end. And by survive, I mean be "animate" but not necessarily having a pulse or sanity. Plenty of people wake up with neither of these until their morning coffee, so it still counts as alive

Quote Post 34

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

You should see my prologue. It has K's influence all over it.

Quote Post 35

36 Reply by njc

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

(runs screaming from the Prologue)

Quote Post 36

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

Then write your novel without aiming at a specific group or age. Screw MG rules. Or adult rules that require sex and violence. Just write your book. The strength of the first chapter is your prose, the daisy chains, and the way you wax poetic about flowers. That was what stood out to me.

What was missing was an immediate declaration that this book was about magic, as well as an integrated description about the setting and character picturazation. All easily fixed with a couple paragraphs in the right place. But you have skills. It is obvious that this first chapter has been polished, and while there are bumps, they are subtle ones.

Since you eliminated descriptions and took this story down to the bones, you need to build it up again, but better. How many rewrites has this story undergone?

And don't fret the loss of innocence. That is what makes an author tire of their book and self-publish too soon. The only exception that I can name is The Martian, and it doesn't count.

Quote Post 37

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

K dot said: Not so! I've guaranteed that Firestarter will survive to the end. And by survive, I mean be "animate" but not necessarily having a pulse or sanity. Plenty of people wake up with neither of these until their morning coffee, so it still counts as alive

Me: Does that mean that K A J O dies? Your bromance with the character will actually end? WHHOOOOOPEEE! (said with all the respect in the world. Not:-)

Quote Post 38

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

Morning Amy. Rewrites = 10 at the latest count.  And thanks for your nice comments about the flowers. I am really struggling not to listen to too many people. Beta readers, reviewers, my agent, myself. All of us want different things for and from this story.
My comments about where the book fits are more the words of others. I find that it takes its own form as I write, and even as I change it and polish it, it stays its own person. If you understand what I have anthropomorphised here...

Quote Post 39

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

Norm: You should see my prologue. It has K's influence all over it.
njc: (runs screaming from the Prologue)
K: follows the pleasant sound of a screaming reader throwing a book at a wall. Smiles.

Quote Post 40

41 Reply by njc

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

There are books to ease the terror of existential despair.

There are also books to inspire the terror of existential despair.

Quote Post 41

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

I've updated the first chapter, I think I've taken everyone on board, I'm going over it again with each of the existing inlines. Let me know if you think it is any better, please?

Quote Post 42

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

K just writes to kill off his characters. I've learned not to care about anyone. He also writes about 30 mph horses and has his MC ride bareback in freezing cold weather wearing nothing but a sheet. Did I say the character was bareback? Naked except for a sheet? In the freezing cold when she had availability of clothing in the castle where she just killed everybody? OK, moving on.

This is why he needs me around. I scream and stick pins into his voodoo doll when he pulls that kind of crap.

Quote Post 43

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

amy s wrote:

K just writes to kill off his characters. I've learned not to care about anyone. He also writes about 30 mph horses and has his MC ride bareback in freezing cold weather wearing nothing but a sheet. Did I say the character was bareback? Naked except for a sheet? In the freezing cold when she had availability of clothing in the castle where she just killed everybody? OK, moving on.

This is why he needs me around. I scream and stick pins into his voodoo doll when he pulls that kind of crap.

He must think some people don't feel the cold.

Quote Post 44

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

Kdot wrote:

Norm: You should see my prologue. It has K's influence all over it.
njc: (runs screaming from the Prologue)
K: follows the pleasant sound of a screaming reader throwing a book at a wall. Smiles.

Funny. I'm actually the one throwing the book at a wall. Better yet, into a fireplace. I still like the prologue, though.

Quote Post 45

46 Reply by njc

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

Lynne Clark wrote:
amy s wrote:

K just writes to kill off his characters. I've learned not to care about anyone. He also writes about 30 mph horses and has his MC ride bareback in freezing cold weather wearing nothing but a sheet. Did I say the character was bareback? Naked except for a sheet? In the freezing cold when she had availability of clothing in the castle where she just killed everybody? OK, moving on.

This is why he needs me around. I scream and stick pins into his voodoo doll when he pulls that kind of crap.

He must think some people don't feel the cold.

I think he has one of them swim after his love in a river of cryogenic fluorine fuel.  The Hellespont is not enough.

Quote Post 46

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

It was a liquid nitrogen river in which one of the villains met a "chilling" demise

Quote Post 47

48 Reply by njc (edited by njc 2018-02-24 01:48:04)

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

And contaminates the feedstock.  Which book is going to explain how this blows up the whole city, and leads to the civilization's death-by-senescence?

Quote Post 48

49 Reply by Norm d'Plume (edited by Norm d'Plume 2018-02-24 01:58:21)

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

njc wrote:

death-by-senescence?

Did someone call my name?

Quote Post 49

Re: How to Breathe Underwater (trilogy: Lessons in Skills for Life)

amy s wrote:

Version 0 is correct. I don't record how many times I've rewritten. It's depressing.

I want you to read Chapter 1 of Dictates because it is an example of how to integrate magic into your story immediately. Remember, there is no 'first book' in my story. If you want the best then it is Dictates because this is the most recent of my rewrites

Speediness? Rewriting your first chapter in two days? How could I fail to note that little fact?

Ideas for integrating magic into the first half of your chapter. Describe the room more. Since there is a creation magic in play that makes food and clothing poof out of thin air, the room would be decidedly different from an average kid. The contents would be limited by the mother's imagination, and she would be reluctant to throw anything out. There would be no stores, remember, so everything the mother made would be limited by her ability to design. This is a big day, so what are the details she put into the newly created uniform? What colors did she choose for the room? Can she create furniture? Is there something that Izzy's friend has in her room that the mother couldn't create...something that Izzy has always wanted?

Have the mother wearing a new dress for the occasion.

Has Izzy ever seen her mother create? Why did she just ask her mother where food comes from at the age of 12? In retrospect, that question made me wonder. The analogy that I can come up with is kids with the ATM. Need money? Just go to the ATM, mom. It is an endless supply in their experience. Magic for Izzy would be like that. Part of her regular life. Rip up a pair of socks? Mom provides. Hole in the couch? Fixed the next day.

Just a thought to mull over.

What you say about being totally complacent about how magic works is exactly what I want to portray. Nothing at this stage feels as if it is an effort, so why should she go to learn the Skills if her mother can provide what she wants? What teenager wonders (unless forced to) about how her clothes miraculously arrive clean and pressed in her wardrobe? Why she can't have the latest tablet or phone? How are the bills paid?   Or any of your own examples. Likewise, she has known for ages (as Amma keeps telling her) that she has to go to Skill School (like going up to Senior School when you are comfortable where you are) but it is only now it is the day before that it is real in her mind.

Descriptions are tricksy. If I want to keep the action momentum going, fast and furious, for this initial footstep into her world, what would she be noticing other than what is in her head? Right now that isn't anything to do with the colours of the room, the furnishings, what her mother is wearing. Not even the colours of her uniform. She might have noticed and remarked later, but she gets into another argument with Amma about going to school, so I don't think she would notice even then.

The only thing likely to be in her mind is a) oh no, she isn't going to freeze me out of bed again, is she (by the way, this is based on a personal memory. My dad used to get me out of bed for school when I wouldn't get up by pulling the blankets back and applying a freezing wet face flannel to my feet, or my belly if it wasn't covered by my pyjamas. So I know how fast you can get out of bed if that is threatened...)
and b) if I DO have to go school (though I won't, nobody will make me) what will it be like?

which brings me to another question.
How far along is it acceptable to introduce the antagonist?
Currently, the main antagonists aren't introduced until about a third of the way through, when she changes locale. I do have a POV character in this new place, and I am thinking of putting some 'this is happening there, whilst you are getting on with your stuff here' chapters just to introduce the antagonist earlier.

Do you all have any thoughts?

Quote Post 50