1 (edited by Memphis Trace 2018-02-03 10:03:49)

Topic: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

From Bret Stephens, Pulitzer Prize Winning columnist when with The Wall Street Journal (Emphasis mine):
Gertrude Stein once said of her hometown of Oakland, Calif., “There is no there there.” That about says it for Devin Nunes’s notorious memo, too.

By this I do not mean that Nunes, the California Republican and chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, has uncovered no potential wrongdoing in his three-and-a-half-page memo, which was declassified Friday over vehement objections from senior F.B.I. and Justice Department officials. More about the possible wrongdoing in a moment.

The important questions, however, are:

First, did the F.B.I. have solid reasons to suspect that people in Donald Trump’s campaign had unusual, dangerous and possibly criminal ties to Moscow?

Second, did this suspicion warrant surveillance and investigation by the F.B.I.?

The answers are yes and yes, and nothing in the Nunes memo changes that — except to provide the president with a misleading pretext to fire deputy attorney general Rod Rosenstein and discredit Robert Mueller’s probe.

Let’s review. Paul Manafort, the Trump campaign chairman until August 2016, is credibly alleged to have received $12.7 million in “undisclosed cash payments” from then-Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, a Russian stooge. Had Manafort not been exposed, he might have gone on to occupy a position of trust in the Trump administration, much as Reagan campaign manager Bill Casey wound up running the C.I.A. He would then have been easy prey to Russian blackmail.

George Papadopoulos, the young adviser who pleaded guilty last year to lying to the F.B.I., spent his time on the campaign trying to make overtures to Russia. In May 2016 he blabbed to an Australian diplomat that Moscow had political dirt on Hillary Clinton — information that proved true and was passed on to U.S. intelligence. This was the genesis of an F.B.I. counterintelligence investigation, as the Nunes memo itself admits.

And then there’s Carter Page, the man at the center of the Nunes memo. By turns stupid (his Ph.D. thesis was twice rejected), self-important (he has compared himself to Martin Luther King Jr.), and money-hungry (a suspected Russian agent who tried to recruit him in 2013 was recorded saying he “got hooked on Gazprom”), Page happens also to be highly sympathetic to the Putin regime. The Russian phrase for such characters is polezni durak — useful idiot. No wonder he was invited to give a commencement speech at a Russian university in the summer of 2016. That’s how assets are cultivated in the world of intelligence.

Given the profile and his relative proximity to team Trump, it would have been professionally negligent of the F.B.I. not to keep tabs on him. Yet the bureau only obtained a surveillance warrant after Page had left the campaign and shortly before the election, and it insisted throughout the campaign that Trump was not a target of investigation. How that represents an affront to American democracy is anyone’s guess.

The memo does seem to have uncovered conflicts of interest at the Justice Department, most seriously by then-Associate Deputy Attorney General Bruce Ohr, whose wife was working for Fusion GPS (and thus, by extension, the Clinton campaign) on opposition research on Trump. The memo also claims this relationship was not disclosed to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court when the Justice Department applied for a surveillance warrant on Page.

That’s a significant omission that already seems to have led to Ohr’s demotion, according to Fox News. Then again, the Nunes memo has its own “material omissions,” according to an adamant and enraged F.B.I. Who do you find more credible: Nunes or F.B.I. Director Christopher Wray?

Nor does the Nunes memo claim that the information provided by the F.B.I. to the foreign intelligence court was, in fact, false. The closest it gets is a quote from ex-F.B.I. Director James Comey saying the Steele dossier was “salacious and unverified,” and then noting the anti-Trump bias of various officials involved in the case.

Come again? The Stormy Daniels story is also salacious and almost certainly accurate. “Unverified” is not a synonym for “untrue.” And since when do pundits who make a living from their opinions automatically equate “bias” with dishonesty?

The larger inanity here is the notion that the F.B.I. tried to throw the election to Clinton, when it was the Democrats who complained bitterly at the time that the opposite was true.

“It has become clear that you possess explosive information about close ties and coordination between Donald Trump, his top advisers and the Russian government,” then Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid angrily wrote James Comey in late October 2016. “The public has a right to know this information.”

Maybe so. But the G-Men kept quiet about their investigations, and Trump won the election. How that represents evidence of a sinister deep-state conspiracy is a question for morons to ponder. As for Devin Nunes, he has, to adapt an old line, produced evidence of a conspiracy so small. In modern parlance we’d call it a nothingburger, but the bun is missing, too.

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

I think in the end it will be proven that Trump manufactured the memo himself.  He's capable of that, and he will do what it takes to get himself out of the Russia investigation.  If he fires Rosenstein and replaces him with one of his henchmen, that person will fire Mueller without it looking like Trump did it.  Anything to discredit the FBI works for Trump.  If I were Mueller, I would arrest Trump today to keep that from happening.  I don't know what he's waiting for.

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured." –Mark Twain

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

Why do you persist in making this a forum for Trump paranoia?  It's one thing when politics or such-like detaches from  discussion started about something related to writing or literature, but your behavior is sociopathic.

5 (edited by Memphis Trace 2018-02-04 14:08:50)

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Why do you persist in making this a forum for Trump paranoia?  It's one thing when politics or such-like detaches from  discussion started about something related to writing or literature, but your behavior is sociopathic.

¿Posting a critical analysis from The New York Times of a much ballyhooed propaganda memorandum attacking the FBI and the judicial system is not about writing and the kind of critical thinking journalists need to employ to write their opinions?

You must not be a journalist if you think posting the work of Pullitzer Prize winning columnists on a writing site is sociopathic. If you aren't interested in journalism, watch Fox News.

Memphis Trace

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

Memphis Trace wrote:
Charles_F_Bell wrote:

Why do you persist in making this a forum for Trump paranoia?  It's one thing when politics or such-like detaches from  discussion started about something related to writing or literature, but your behavior is sociopathic.

¿Posting a critical analysis from The New York Times of a much ballyhooed propaganda memorandum attacking the FBI and the judicial system is not about writing and the kind of critical thinking journalists need to employ to write their opinions?

You must not be a journalist if you think posting the work of Pullitzer Prize winning columnists on a writing site is sociopathic. If you aren't interested in journalism, watch Fox News.

Memphis Trace

Were you to have ever posted a critical analysis from ... any source in comparison to NYT/WaPo/MSNBC ... then instruction might have followed as to how "journalists" like discredited economist Paul Krugman and the craven neoconservative Bret Stephens can be compared to dispassionate fact-rendering real journalists like ... a typical high-school newspaper reporter there might be in any U.S. town.

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

The Memo Doesn’t Vindicate Trump. It’s More Proof of Obstruction.
By Renato Mariotti

For weeks, allies of President Trump ratcheted up pressure to “release the memo.” The impact, according to supporters, would be monumental: It would shake the F.B.I. “to its core” (Representative Jeff Duncan of South Carolina) or it would reveal abuses “100 times bigger” than what incited the American Revolution (Sebastian Gorka, a former White House official).

The president himself said, after the memo’s release on Friday, that it “vindicates” him in the probe.

But it does no such thing. The memo from House Republicans, led by Representative Devin Nunes, fell well short of the hype. Its main argument is that when the Justice Department sought a warrant to wiretap the former Trump adviser Carter Page, it did not reveal that Christopher Steele—the author of a controversial opposition-research dossier—was funded by the Democratic National Committee and the Hillary Clinton campaign through a law firm.

This is actually a fairly common—and rarely effective—argument made by defendants who seek to suppress evidence obtained by a warrant.

What might be the lasting legacy of the Nunes memo is how President Trump reacted to it. According to reports, Mr. Trump suggested “the memo might give him the justification to fire [the deputy attorney general, Rod Rosenstein]—something about which Trump has privately mused—or make other changes at the Justice Department, which he had complained was not sufficiently loyal to him.”

In fact, Mr. Trump’s approval of the release of the memo and his comments that releasing it could make it easier for him to fire Mr. Rosenstein could help Robert Mueller, the special counsel, prove that Mr. Trump fired James B. Comey, then the F.B.I. director, with a “corrupt” intent—in other words, the intent to wrongfully impede the administration of justice—as the law requires.

After all, Mr. Trump is now aware that he is under investigation for obstruction, and he knows that Mr. Comey said that Mr. Trump wanted “loyalty” from him. Mr. Mueller could argue that the president’s comments that Mr. Rosenstein was not “loyal” and his desire to fire Mr. Rosenstein suggest Mr. Trump’s unlawful intent when he fired Mr. Comey.

The memo also offers the outlines of a broader probable cause case against Mr. Page. The Nunes memo suggests that there was substantial additional evidence, even though it avoids discussing that evidence. The memo indicates that the investigation of Mr. Page began well before the warrant under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, was sought, and that the Russia investigation was initiated because of the statements of George Papadopoulos.

The warrant was issued and then renewed three separate times. Each time, as is standard in seeking a FISA warrant, a judge reviewed extensive information before issuing it. The fact that the warrant was renewed three times indicates that the F.B.I. obtained useful intelligence each time—a judge wouldn’t have approved a renewal if the prior warrant came up empty. That suggests that once the warrants were issued, they revealed important evidence.

In addition, the timeline set forth in the memo indicates that the FISA warrants were submitted by both the Obama and Trump administrations. The initial surveillance began before Mr. Rosenstein was deputy attorney general, and by the time he was at the Justice Department, he approved renewal applications that were based on the intelligence gathered from the earlier surveillance—not the dossier.

On the issue of bias, whenever the Justice Department seeks a warrant, they must present extensive evidence to a judge, who decides whether to issue the warrant based on that evidence. After the fact, defendants can challenge warrants by arguing that the government recklessly excluded information that would have caused the judge not to sign the warrant.

Courts have repeatedly held that even when the government omitted the criminal history of the informant or the fact that the informant was paid, it didn’t matter unless the omitted information would have caused the judge not to sign the warrant.

The Nunes memo claims to show that the warrant was obtained unlawfully, but there is no way of knowing that without examining the extensive evidence submitted in conjunction with the warrant, which the memo does not do. Given that Mr. Steele was a former intelligence officer, not a flipper with an extensive criminal history, it will be hard to show that a judge would have believed he was lying if the source of his funding was included in the application.

Given how little substance there is to the Nunes memo, the Republicans made a misstep by pushing through its release in a partisan manner. The specter of an unreleased memo was more menacing than the thin allegations revealed in the memo itself, which are hotly disputed by congressional Democrats.

Although at least one Republican maintains that the memo shows that Mr. Rosenstein, Mr. Comey and others committed “treason,” the memo itself does not allege that the F.B.I. or Department of Justice knowingly used false information or even that the information they used was false. Because the allegations in the memo are legally irrelevant, I would be surprised if the memo was more than a short-lived publicity stunt.

This is not the result Mr. Nunes expected when his staff wrote the memo, but that could be its lasting impact.

Memphis Trace

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

I think it's fine to express your feelings about the political morass we find ourselves in, and I encourage everyone to vent. But as you are venting PLEASE do something constructive, too. Support candidates who'll stand up to this totalitarian despot. Give them your time and MONEY and then when 2018 comes please VOTE. Don't get complacent and think because someone has enough support they don't need yours. That's how we got in this mess in the first place.

sad

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

I guess there is wisdom in the advice of not feeding the political-sociopathic trolls.  You even get a more partisan puppet (Renato Mariotti) to speak the Trump paranoid delusion, although in form it is merely a pastiche of Democrat talking points in defense of Obama-era corrupt government.

10 (edited by dagnee 2018-02-04 19:28:59)

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

I guess there is wisdom in the advice of not feeding the political-sociopathic trolls.  You even get a more partisan puppet (Renato Mariotti) to speak the Trump paranoid delusion, although in form it is merely a pastiche of Democrat talking points in defense of Obama-era corrupt government.

Charles my advice is the same to you, a Trump supporter, as it is to a Democrat: give money and support to the candidate of your choice, then VOTE.
smile

11 (edited by Jake J. Harrison 2018-02-04 19:56:51)

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

I'm not really sure I see the point of pasting copyrighted, political material on a writing forum. Those that agree with it, will agree, those that don't, won't. There are plenty of political sites where partisans can go at it and are encourage to do so. It really has nothing to do with writing and is bound to create more ill will than anything. If politics stirs your writing juices then by all means go at it in the proper place and then come here to create your wonderful stories.

My family is split politically and we've decided not to discuss politics when we get together because it generally devolves into an argument. I like to come here to escape all of the red hot partisan bullshit which is circulating on the Web. If you find that must bring your viewpoint into a writing site, ask yourself why

If you absolutely must, then create a political group on the site and let like-minded people join. Otherwise, I believe pasting this stuff is like crying fire.

12 (edited by dagnee 2018-02-04 20:09:13)

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

Now for something a little lighter:
#yomemojokes Tweets:
Yo memo so bankrupt, it used to be a Trump casino.

Yo Memo's such a letdown it's a Star Wars prequel.

Yo memo's such a dog Mitt Romney tried to tie it to the top of his car.

Yo memo is such a disaster, FEMA actually responded to.

Yo memo is so thin Trump combed it over.

Yo memo is so empty it looked like a Trump inaugural speech.

Yo memo such a disaster Puerto Rico sent it relief.

Yo Memo has more holes than Steve Brannon’s face.

Yo memo is so bad, Stormy Daniels spanked it’s ass with a magazine.

Your memo is so stupid Donald Trump calls it Eric. (before you boo me, Eric is a big game hunter, proving his low IQ)

And one just written just for today:

Yo memo so deflated Tom Brady is going to throw it on Sunday.

smile

PS:
Knock, knock. Who's There? Yo memo. Yo memo who? YoMemo how Obama had *zero* scandals in 8 years?

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

Jake J. Harrison wrote:

I'm not really sure I see the point of pasting copyrighted, political material on a writing forum. Those that agree with it, will agree, those that don't, won't. There are plenty of political sites where partisans can go at it and are encourage to do so. It really has nothing to do with writing and is bound to create more ill will than anything. If politics stirs your writing juices then by all means go at it in the proper place and then come here to create your wonderful stories.

My family is split politically and we've decided not to discuss politics when we get together because it generally devolves into an argument. I like to come here to escape all of the red hot partisan bullshit which is circulating on the Web. If you find that must bring your viewpoint into a writing site, ask yourself why

If you absolutely must, then create a political group on the site and let like-minded people join. Otherwise, I believe pasting this stuff is like crying fire.

You didn't have to click. Just sayin...
smile

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

You didn't have to click. Just sayin...

That's an invalid argument. This thread is taking up space and attention. Once again, it's like crying fire in a theater. Why should I have to look away? Why should this be at the top of the forum? It's like saying someone can swear at you every day but don't complain because you don't have to listen.

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

Jake J. Harrison wrote:

You didn't have to click. Just sayin...

That's an invalid argument. This thread is taking up space and attention. Once again, it's like crying fire in a theater. Why should I have to look away? Why should this be at the top of the forum? It's like saying someone can swear at you every day but don't complain because you don't have to listen.

I'm sorry Jake it is a valid argument. This post is plainly titled: Devin Nune's Nothingburger. It's not worded to trick you into clicking it and reading it. When someone swears in front of you, you don't have a choice. Here you can read the title of the post and CHOOSE to read...or not.
smile

16 (edited by Jake J. Harrison 2018-02-04 21:18:44)

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

When someone swears in front of you, you don't have a choice. Here you can read the title of the post and CHOOSE to read...or not.

Okay, so if I posted a topic called Dagnee's Lazy and Can't Write (I don't really mean it. I'm just saying it to illustrate a point) then you have the choice to look away and not read the thread. You're okay with that? To me, this is no different.

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

Jake J. Harrison wrote:

When someone swears in front of you, you don't have a choice. Here you can read the title of the post and CHOOSE to read...or not.

Okay, so if I posted a topic called Dagnee's Lazy and Can't Write (I don't really mean it. I'm just saying it to illustrate a point) then you have the choice to look away and not read the thread. You're okay with that? To me, this is no different.

That’s not the same comparison. It’s a personal attack, versus bringing up political news. Of course someone will want to say and/or  defend something saidabout them. Your name is on it, sure you have a choice not to click, but you have a vested interest in defending your (own) name and character.
The thread about Nunes memo was not personal, unless you take it so. Apples vs Oranges my friend.

18 (edited by dagnee 2018-02-05 00:03:30)

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

Jake J. Harrison wrote:

When someone swears in front of you, you don't have a choice. Here you can read the title of the post and CHOOSE to read...or not.

Okay, so if I posted a topic called Dagnee's Lazy and Can't Write (I don't really mean it. I'm just saying it to illustrate a point) then you have the choice to look away and not read the thread. You're okay with that? To me, this is no different.

Jake, no, I wouldn't read it. It's obviously worded to make me angry and to trigger a response.
smile

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

A politics or (more generally) a debate group might not be such a bad idea.

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

*...except to provide the president with a misleading pretext to fire deputy attorney general Rod Rosenstein and discredit Robert Mueller’s probe.**

Yup. But what are we gonna do about it? Except get on a forum and complain about if our meager little forum even has the right to exist or contemplate or contextualize or conclude anything...

What if I were to start a forum thread saying that I dropped a lit cigarette in my lap and, as a result, everyone oughta be obligated to write their congressman demanding an extra episode of The Sopranos? Even if the truth of Tony Soprano's fate was forthcoming wouldn't it only spawn forum upon forum debating the veracity of said truth? And, furthermore, Tom Brady and the Patriots just lost the Superb Owl. Why can't we debate the veracity of that result?

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

Norm d'Plume wrote:

A politics or (more generally) a debate group might not be such a bad idea.

I started the Fight Club group for fighting, for saying things to another member you couldn't say in this forum, but you all are welcome to start political debates in there if you want. Just one thing, I don't censor so if someone calls you a bad name or hurts your feelings don't whine to me about it.

smile

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

Jake J. Harrison wrote:

My family is split politically and we've decided not to discuss politics when we get together because it generally devolves into an argument.

I recommend you can avoid an argument by not commenting in political threads here on TNBW.

Jake J. Harrison wrote:

I like to come here to escape all of the red hot partisan bullshit which is circulating on the Web.

So why'd you comment?

Jake J. Harrison wrote:

If you find that must bring your viewpoint into a writing site, ask yourself why

The reason I do it is to have my political viewpoints vigorously challenged by the most eloquent people I associate with, outside my associations with political journalists.

Memphis Trace

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

dagnee wrote:
Norm d'Plume wrote:

A politics or (more generally) a debate group might not be such a bad idea.

I started the Fight Club group for fighting, for saying things to another member you couldn't say in this forum, but you all are welcome to start political debates in there if you want. Just one thing, I don't censor so if someone calls you a bad name or hurts your feelings don't whine to me about it.

:)

Great to find out about this, Dagnee.

Memphis Trace

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

Charles_F_Bell wrote:

I guess there is wisdom in the advice of not feeding the political-sociopathic trolls.  You even get a more partisan puppet (Renato Mariotti) to speak the Trump paranoid delusion, although in form it is merely a pastiche of Democrat talking points in defense of Obama-era corrupt government.

Renato Marriotti's analysis is just more disdain from across the political spectrum: from Bret Stephen's neoconservative platform to Marriotti's liberal platform. What is either paranoid or delusional about either opinion?

Challenge the message.

Memphis Trace

Re: Devin Nunes’s Nothingburger

Norm d'Plume wrote:

A politics or (more generally) a debate group might not be such a bad idea.

I just joined dagnee's group.

Memphis Trace