Re: Point system dying?

janet reid wrote:

I'm also saying you can give a brutally honest review but you can still be nice.

Find an example in which I was honest, and, for that matter since I have been back certainly,  giving of compliment in equal proportion to criticism (or so I tried) and not nice.  If you cannot even know what I may be talking about, then how do you know, and have rudely presumed all along to know, that I cannot be honest and nice and so in need or your advice?  It is true I have no time for all the folderal (yes, I had to look that one up for spelling) of "If I may be so bold as to suggest the following improvements . . ."  In point of fact, I got jumped on for suggesting an author's explicit criticism of euphemisms such as Gosh for God was insulting to those parents who would rather instruct their children to do so. How was that friendly from the author about my suggestion on being nice to people?

Quote Post 26

Re: Point system dying?

Wow! Glad I can make a commit here without being a hater! LOL!

Many moons ago, we also rated chapters 1-5. I think during that time I left only one 1. Constructive criticism does no equal tearing another person down.  I had one person tell me that with my current writing style no one would ever read my work. The very work this person belittled was a semifinalist at the Faulkner Wisdom Competition and is now published. Your writing sucks can so easily be changed to I feel this might be better said this way and then rewriting a sentence or two. I am a holistic reviewer/editor. I do line edit and find grammar issues and nits. I also give honest thoughts on what I like or dislike about a piece and how I think it could be better. I also tell folks what they've done well.

Revenge reviews. Hey! I reviewed a person on site and read their entire story twice--through rewrites. This person read some of my stuff. But at one time this person made a point of excluding me in a list. I confess that it hurt my feelings and I mentioned that fact to another author. Well said person obviously still holds a grudge against me b/c said person must have blocked me from reviewing work on here, even though recently this person posted something and the title caught my attention. I would have loved to have read it. Their loss, not mine.

An inability to take criticism is a weakness, but some folks also need to learn how to give constructive criticism.

Friends? Yes, I made some of those too. A number of folks from here and I continue give and take via email and even phone calls. I might not have seen these people in person, but we have developed relationships. And a true friend will always be honest. But honesty doesn't have to be cruel. Is better to tell "Joe" he needs to start over with a better opening and then maybe make suggestions? Sure. But That doesn't mean you have to tell Joe to hang up any aspirations. Again--CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.

Reciprocating--Well,yes, it should be done. I value as many reviews and comments as I can get. And I always reciprocate. I will get to your work eventually. Most people DO reciprocate. But I've had a few who did not. I've also had some folks who never replied to a review. If you don't reply or reciprocate after two or three times, well, I have other folks on here that I can read and get feedback in return. Would I block a person from reviewing my work just because he/she doesn't like it or gives pretty rough criticism? No. I would block that person if he/she were abusive in the way the gave the criticism. Of the people commenting in this thread, I've read a little Wilma Bailey, a lot of jack the knife, and the one piece that janet reid is posting.

Points? Well, if I have to have points to post, I'll read pieces that offer points. I've so far read a few "freebie" posts, but those few have yet to either reciprocate, probably because they don't have to in order to continue to post, or even acknowledge my reviews. Excuse me! I won't waste my time with folks who don't care to be a part of the group. I've found this site to be about give and take--not take, take, take.

So, that's my two cents worth on this topic, hopefully without the feeling of attacking anyone who commented previously. Oh, you might find a typo or two in this, since I'm not editing it before hitting submit.

Quote Post 27

Re: Point system dying?

Temple Wang wrote:
charles_bell wrote:

But no, everyone either wants to suck up...or get reciprocal reviews of the junk they write for the junk they read.

Wow....
I, for one, would prefer not to be lumped into your "everyone" pile.  Thank you very much, Mr. I-never-met-a-word-I-couldn't-use-as-a-dialogue-tag. :-)

Sure.  He said, she said, and then, and then, and then, and she said, and he said, and then and then -- does not constitute 99% of  fiction and is never junk, especially never on TNBW.

Quote Post 28

Re: Point system dying?

Janet Taylor-Perry wrote:

, but some folks also need to learn how to give constructive criticism.

But honesty doesn't have to be cruel.

So, that's my two cents worth on this topic,

Yes, it was worth reading, and not rude and condescending unlike every other response to what I thought was my plain, rational comment.

"Honesty does not have to be cruel"  was not something I advocated. For example, "I like the genre and the sub-genre in which you have posted your story, and I have read extensively in that genre off the shelf and in TNBW, but your stuff sucks!"  is not un-constructive and not cruel at all, if one or two examples for that opinion is provided.  I think just an expression of displeasure without much detail from someone whose opinion you ought to have reason to believe has merit is of value. It is not "nice" but it is not mean-spirited as one hears often among entitled people who have low self-esteem and apparently can read minds.

Quote Post 29

30 Reply by penang (edited by penang 2014-12-12 05:05:29)

Re: Point system dying?

charles_bell wrote:

Sure, the point system encourages the same sincerity of paid reviews of books sold on Amazon or of merchandise sold anywhere over the internet. If the point system exists to encourage reviews, and I am sure it does, why is there otherwise not a genuine review process, on style and substance, and not so much on grammar and punctuation, only for the sake of reviewing, among disinterested strangers who have nothing to get or give, on TNBW?  It ought to be simple: find a book that has something which interests you and comment on it to the extent it satisfies or disappoints, and why.  But no, everyone either wants to suck up and "make friends"  or get reciprocal reviews of the junk they write for the junk they read.

Your words "Like I said about female writers with their stories: Whine, whine, whine." are all I need to read to know about you (I did read your other reviews just to be sure I didn't misjudge you and I am sure I didn't). You are a troll. I have zero respect for someone like you for the simple fact that you seek to tear down others just because you can. You are here with an agenda - to make you feel better about yourself by judging others.

You have zero reviews on your posted work on the site. You have zero reviews on your self-published book (a lack of ranking also implies a lack of sales). Perhaps you should examine the quality of your own words, whether in writing or reviewing, and the attitude that permeates them.

Quote Post 30

31 Reply by janet reid (edited by janet reid 2014-12-12 05:29:58)

Re: Point system dying?

charles_bell wrote:
janet reid wrote:

I'm also saying you can give a brutally honest review but you can still be nice.

Find an example in which I was honest, and, for that matter since I have been back certainly,  giving of compliment in equal proportion to criticism (or so I tried) and not nice.  If you cannot even know what I may be talking about, then how do you know, and have rudely presumed all along to know, that I cannot be honest and nice and so in need or your advice?  It is true I have no time for all the folderal (yes, I had to look that one up for spelling) of "If I may be so bold as to suggest the following improvements . . ."  In point of fact, I got jumped on for suggesting an author's explicit criticism of euphemisms such as Gosh for God was insulting to those parents who would rather instruct their children to do so. How was that friendly from the author about my suggestion on being nice to people?

When I say you, I don't mean you as in you Charles, I mean as in anyone and everyone on the site i.e. in general.  So my comments were not meant as a personal attack.  If I've said "your reviews are crap", this reply would've been more than justified.  Hope this clarifies that bit. 

Referring to other people's work that doesn't meet your as in Charles' supposed standard, as junk, is not acceptable.  And that's what I've taken exception to.  Also referring to people who made friends on the site as "sucking up" to each other, is not nice.  I took exception to that as well.  But irrespective of whether my previous comments have been general or not, if your reviews are anything like your comment in this thread, I'd say it would be justified to assume that you as in Charles may be thinking you like in Charles are giving constructive critism wheras you as in Charles are in reality just being rude and obnoxious.  If I could care enough, I would've checked out your reviews.  But frankly, I don't.  If anything, I'd rather suggest you read your comments before you click submit in future.  Because your initial comment was anything but plain or rational.

Quote Post 31

Re: Point system dying?

What Janet TP said - that's a good summary of how the site works in 2014.  Thanks for that!

Quote Post 32

33 Reply by Temple Wang (edited by Temple Wang 2014-12-12 06:15:35)

Re: Point system dying?

charles_bell wrote:
Temple Wang wrote:
charles_bell wrote:

But no, everyone either wants to suck up...or get reciprocal reviews of the junk they write for the junk they read.

Wow....
I, for one, would prefer not to be lumped into your "everyone" pile.  Thank you very much, Mr. I-never-met-a-word-I-couldn't-use-as-a-dialogue-tag. :-)

Sure.  He said, she said, and then, and then, and then, and she said, and he said, and then and then -- does not constitute 99% of  fiction and is never junk, especially never on TNBW.

"Sure.  He said, she said, and then, and then, and then, and she said, and he said, and then and then -- does not constitute 99% of  fiction and is never junk, especially never on TNBW," Charles expostulated fervently, before returning to his glass of Chivas.

"I agree.  Most good authors attempt to stay away from dialogue tags as much as possible rather than using them as semaphores," Temple reproached with a flourish.

;-)  RFLMAO (you're too funny, Chuck)

Quote Post 33

Re: Point system dying?

charles_bell wrote:

...not rude and condescending unlike every other response to what I thought was my plain, rational comment.

I think it's pretty clear to the crowd following this thread that a person who chooses the public forum to call out other people's writing as "junk" regards such a statement itself as "rude and condescending," as any rational human being would.

Having such an opinion is not a problem, sticking your Florsheim in your gob and espousing it on a forum with clear intent (and success) to be offensive, is simply hate-mongering.

My recommendation is that you crawl back under the bridge where you belong, Mr. Bell.

Quote Post 34

35 Reply by Mariana Reuter (edited by Mariana Reuter 2014-12-12 06:05:34)

Re: Point system dying?

Temple Wang:

I don't think this bloke Charles drinks Chivas. Maybe some cheap, methanol-rich bourbon produced by a moonshiner, but not Scotch! Not even within a dialogue tag.

Kiss,

Gacela.

Quote Post 35

Re: Point system dying?

Temple Wang wrote:
charles_bell wrote:
Temple Wang wrote:

Wow....
I, for one, would prefer not to be lumped into your "everyone" pile.  Thank you very much, Mr. I-never-met-a-word-I-couldn't-use-as-a-dialogue-tag. :-)

Sure.  He said, she said, and then, and then, and then, and she said, and he said, and then and then -- does not constitute 99% of  fiction and is never junk, especially never on TNBW.

"Sure.  He said, she said, and then, and then, and then, and she said, and he said, and then and then -- does not constitute 99% of  fiction and is never junk, especially never on TNBW," Charles expostulated fervently, before returning to his glass of Chivas.
I agree.  Most good authors attempt to stay away from dialogue tags as much as possible rather than using them as semaphores. ;-)
RFLMAO (you're too funny, Chuck)

Reviewer #1: your writing sucks, its absolute crap, junk. Go learn how to use dialogue tags, come back and try again.

Reviewer #2: I liked xyz. But, and this is my opinion and only a suggestion, try and mix up your dialogue tags to "show" us what the person does when they speak eg Charles feverishly punched the keyboard keys. "These TNBW writers just won't roll over and die!" Also, you use "then" a lot which breaks the flow of the story. And finally, you don't have to, but you're likely to get more reviews if you post to a points group.

Nowhere did reviewer #2 said its award winning writing ...

Quote Post 36

37 Reply by Temple Wang (edited by Temple Wang 2014-12-12 09:26:53)

Re: Point system dying?

Mariana Reuter wrote:

Temple Wang:

I don't think this bloke Charles drinks Chivas. Maybe some cheap, methanol-rich bourbon produced by a moonshiner, but not Scotch! Not even within a dialogue tag.

Kiss,

Gacela.

Perhaps, but in my experience, men with insecurities often make special efforts to act in certain ways, buy certain things, engage in certain behaviors, say certain things, swagger in their walk, and otherwise create false personas in an effort be perceived differently than they are---as a method of compensating for weakness.  ;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_complex (aka "little-man complex")

Quote Post 37

Re: Point system dying?

janet reid wrote:

Charles, mate, the site has moved on since you joined. Not saying what you're referring to isn't happening, but it's the minority.

I'm also saying you can give a brutally honest review but you can still be nice.

And no, there's no junk on this site. None. Lots of pieces that needs improvement, incl mine, but junk? Thats harsh and not needed.

I WROTE AND STILL WRITE LOTS OF JUNK... and I have gotten it published! ONE WRITER'S JUNK IS ANOTHER READER'S TRASH...ooops, I mean treasure!

I now type 21 words/minute, so be happy you can type anything!!!

Quote Post 38

Re: Point system dying?

maxkeanu wrote:
janet reid wrote:

Charles, mate, the site has moved on since you joined. Not saying what you're referring to isn't happening, but it's the minority.

I'm also saying you can give a brutally honest review but you can still be nice.

And no, there's no junk on this site. None. Lots of pieces that needs improvement, incl mine, but junk? Thats harsh and not needed.

I WROTE AND STILL WRITE LOTS OF JUNK... and I have gotten it published! ONE WRITER'S JUNK IS ANOTHER READER'S TRASH...ooops, I mean treasure!

I now type 21 words/minute, so be happy you can type anything!!!

oops, sorry, I forgot about max!  big_smile  *blushes prettily*

In all seriousness, I agree with your last sentence - keep on writing no matter what your "speed" or ability!  This is what the site is here for, not to break down, but to improve.

Hope you keep on improving on your typing speed!  All the best, and it's great that you're keeping at it!  smile

Quote Post 39

Re: Point system dying?

Back to the original question "Point system dying?"  My two cents is:  If it ain't broke, don't fix it!  And that applies to everything on tnbw that did not seem problematic to me before this "upgrade" to the site was made.

Quote Post 40

Re: Point system dying?

For me it is time constraints that prevent me from writing all the reviews that I would like to. That said, I have only been a member of this site for a few months. I started with a free membership to see whether I would like it, and I did - so I have paid for another month, and will be paying for quite a few more.

My reason for wanting to continue to be a member, is that the people participating on this site are doing so because they want some constructive feedback on their work. I tell them what I see, and in exchange, other writers have given me some wonderful pointers on my work.

I am generally happily surprised at the quality of writing I see posted here, and I feel honored to be a member of this site.

Quote Post 41

Re: Point system dying?

One comment to what Janet Taylor-Perry said about free reviews/reviewers. Their lack of reciprocating may be due to a lack of understanding of how the site works.

I received two early reviews on my first draft, one from a phsychologist and another from a theologian, both of whom gave generally positive reviews even though my book has the potential to offend people in both of those fields (not intentionally, it's just the nature of the material). At the time, I didn't realize that reciprocating was the best way to get them to continue reading. Unfortunately, I eventually took down those chapters when I started posting v2 of my book and no longer know who those two people were. I'm holding off broadcasting a request for new reviews of v2 since I already have my hands full reciprocating with authors who are reading my latest posts.

Bottom line, lack of reciprocating was due to a simple lack of knowledge about the site when I first joined, not a reflection of the reviewers's own material. I suspect other new users may be in the same boat. Some of the free stuff I've read hasn't even received a reply yet.

Regards,
Dirk

Quote Post 42

43 Reply by njc

Re: Point system dying?

Putting points in a group would seem to make sense only if that group represented a closed community with its own economy, cut off from the general economy.  In other words, points appear (to me) to make sense only if the wrriter is not also being charged for posting to the community-at large.

Such a group would be a closed group, and should probably be allowed subgroups, just as non-point groups are used as subgroups of the premium group.

Quote Post 43

Re: Point system dying?

Putting points in a group would seem to make sense only if that group represented a closed community with its own economy, cut off from the general economy.  In other words, points appear (to me) to make sense only if the wrriter is not also being charged for posting to the community-at large.

You are entirely correct. I should have explained this better when the site launched. For most users from the old site, there is no real need to post anywhere else other than Premium.

Such a group would be a closed group, and should probably be allowed subgroups, just as non-point groups are used as subgroups of the premium group.

You are really talking about a sub-forum. A lot of this conversation really boils down t the fact that a group on the new site really want the old forum structure back. Well, my suggestion is that this group should go back to the old site or wait until I import the old forums to this site in some form. But even when I do that, there will not be a site-wide forum. The new site does not, and will not use the same forum structure as the old one. I have specific reasons for doing so. One of them is that  the old site, as much as some people liked it, was not a success from a user  standpoint. So, I am not going to return to something that didn't work.

Sol

Quote Post 44

Re: Point system dying?

Bottom line, lack of reciprocating was due to a simple lack of knowledge about the site when I first joined, not a reflection of the reviewers's own material. I suspect other new users may be in the same boat. Some of the free stuff I've read hasn't even received a reply yet.

Yes, this is true. I've changed a lot of language for new users to let them know that if they don't give reviews, they won't receive them. I'll continue to look for ways to reinforce this point. In the Free Group, there will be a certain percentage of users who want to dump their content and leave.

Quote Post 45

Re: Point system dying?

I've only been on TNBW site 4-5 months now so I don't have the long term perspective of many who posted on this thread. Even so, I wonder about the following when it comes to the point system.

If the point system were modified to allow the author to "spend" points to "hire" specific members to review their chapters would their be any significant drawbacks that outweighed the benefits? Some of the benefits I could see is it would address repeated concerns mentioned by others. Hiring good reviewers has the overall effect of allowing them to gain points faster and other reviewers that do subpar (subjective to the author's POV to be sure) work will feel the pressure to elevate their review quality if they want to partake of more than just the minimum points set for a review.

One could argue I will lose points by "spending" them on specific reviewers this way so I will have to do more reviews to compensate. Again, that encourages me to do better reviews so that I too can be "hired" for more than the minimum points posted.

I think it's an idea that has some merit in addressing at least a few of the issues raised by Charles? So let's say Charles finds 2-3 reviewers he prefers for their style of reviews then he can offer his points to hire them. On the flip side, as his points quickly dwindle he either has to do more reviews than normal to replenish his point bucket (increasing the number of reviews overall which is the current goal of the system anyways) or he realizes he needs to put out reviews that get him hired. I know this is where you will be able to raise your hand and say, "This will create more of the friendly vs no nonsense reviews he is highlighting." That isn't going to happen. If you are good enough to write something with most of the basics checked off, you are good enough to realize when you see superficial flattery and won't spend your points to hire that reviewer again.

This also allows you to gather a higher concentration of the reviews you value more, doesn't it? If I have 4-7 reviews I paid points for of course I'm going to cherish and use those much more over the random reviews I received although you can still pick up a gem of a review that way too. The difference is the hiring method puts me in the expecting a good review seat rather than in the hoping for a good review seat.

I'm sure there are some cons to this idea as most ideas aren't perfect, but the question is are there any pros to it that will outweigh the cons by a large enough margin to make it attractive?

For all I know, someone who has been on this site for years has already brought this up and it's been looked at already and found wanting. If so, then I'm sorry I rehashed a dead issue.

Of course, if Sol says, "The programmers say this can't be reasonably implemented" then that's the end of it.

Quote Post 46

Re: Point system dying?

If the point system were modified to allow the author to "spend" points to "hire" specific members to review their chapters would their be any significant drawbacks that outweighed the benefits? Some of the benefits I could see is it would address repeated concerns mentioned by others. Hiring good reviewers has the overall effect of allowing them to gain points faster and other reviewers that do subpar (subjective to the author's POV to be sure) work will feel the pressure to elevate their review quality if they want to partake of more than just the minimum points set for a review.

It's an interesting concept and one I've been turning over in my mind for awhile. There is no programming limitation. It's something I think we will definitely experiment with in the upcoming year. Thanks for the suggestion.

Quote Post 47

48 Reply by dagnee (edited by dagnee 2015-01-03 18:23:09)

Re: Point system dying?

SolN wrote:

If the point system were modified to allow the author to "spend" points to "hire" specific members to review their chapters would their be any significant drawbacks that outweighed the benefits? Some of the benefits I could see is it would address repeated concerns mentioned by others. Hiring good reviewers has the overall effect of allowing them to gain points faster and other reviewers that do subpar (subjective to the author's POV to be sure) work will feel the pressure to elevate their review quality if they want to partake of more than just the minimum points set for a review.

It's an interesting concept and one I've been turning over in my mind for awhile. There is no programming limitation. It's something I think we will definitely experiment with in the upcoming year. Thanks for the suggestion.

Sol, I don't know about hiring someone to read my work, but I do like the idea of being able to 'gift' points to people, especially good writers who have a narrow reading audience in the TNBW free group.

dags smile

Quote Post 48

Re: Point system dying?

Points:

After four and a half years, I still don't know how the points to post/review are calculated. I'd like to see the formula.

Sometimes I have a chapter that require 13+ points to post, so I read and read and read at one and a half points per chapter to get enough points to post. There are a handful of people on here who only read and review and NEVER post. They collect points. I've had a couple ask about a system where a reviewer could give points to an author who might need to get the chapters up fast Any chance of creating as system that allows transfer of points? It's just a thought.

Quote Post 49

Re: Point system dying?

No. I don't think so, HK. I mentioned the majority of writers are going to definitely notice if they get a glowing and flattering review - and as a consequence will think less. I do believe most writers look for a combination of a reviewer who points out - this is what is good, this is what is working, this is what isn't working, and this is how I would recommend you fix it. Just as getting a review that is 100% negative when no other review shows the same a 100% positive review not pointing out any areas of improvement will be met with skepticism.

Offering points vs hiring the reviewer vs gifting the reviewer all simply different wordage for the same action.

At least I take it I didn't unknowingly resurrect an already discussed issue? Well, as Sol said he's already been thinking about the idea so that's good enough for me.

Quote Post 50