1 (edited by corra 2017-01-31 18:12:16)

Topic: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

I'm sharing the following from personal experience if it's of use. Corrections welcomed! Especially since the theme of this post is bad advice gone wrong. My credentials are trial and error -- nothing more. :-)

So, I was pretty new to writing when I joined this site a few years ago. Kind reviewers made lots of great suggestions on my novel*, which helped immensely**. But there are a couple lessons I've needed to unlearn since my early days here:


1) When I first began posting my novel, I was strongly urged to remove as many instances of the word "that" from my manuscript as possible, because it would reduce the word count. I was also told that replacing "that" with "which" would help mix up the repetition of the word "that" throughout the manuscript. I've believed since then that "which" could stand in for "that."

- In fact: "That" and "which" are not interchangeable in American English. PROBABLY a good idea to look this stuff up. I assumed reviewers knew what they were talking about when they advised replacing a few of my "thats" with "which", but they were (I assume) merely passing on what they'd been told and hadn't realized opposed grammatical standards. Removing the "thats" is sound advice when they become cumbersome and repetitious. Don't replace them with "which" unless that's the grammatically correct choice (look up restrictive/nonrestrictive clauses), and don't remove them when they are necessary to the sentence. "That" is an actual word and sometimes the appropriate choice. (If you have a lot of "that" in your manuscript, you might rephrase some of these sentences so the "that" is no longer necessary. Don't just delete them, or replace them with "which.")


2) I was told by several people that an active verb is better than a passive one. (I realize now this might have been better stated "active sentence construction is preferable to passive," for I fixated on the "verb" part of the advice and tried to think up some extremely creative ones. And my eye is on a few of you, for I've seen the same folly.) smile

- In fact: Rewriting a sentence into active voice doesn't mean you take a perfectly good subtle sentence and stick in a strange verb to make it interesting. Example: if I rewrote the sentence that begins point one above, I might say something like, "Reviewers stampeded me to remove as many instances of the word..." STAMPEDED! I would have written that! There's a right active verb! I'd think. But come on. This certainly isn't a better sentence than the one I wrote above. No one stampeded. Now I'm thinking of horses for no reason. CLUNKY. I realize now it just sounds better to write "Reviewers suggested (etc.)" "Suggested" is a serviceable word that does the job. "Stampeded" is a strange word that has no place in the context of the sentence. Also? It's completely fine to put in some passive: "I was urged" makes me the receiver of action and the star of the sentence. "Reviewers suggested" places the focus on reviewers. Different emphasis. It's a subtle shift but can change the feel of a paragraph and certainly have a big effect on the manuscript as a whole, depending on where you place the focus. My personal feeling? Don't write completely in passive voice unless you want to exhaust your reader (which may be the point), but DON'T transform it all to active, either. Think through what you're doing. It's not all or nothing. A passive moment in the middle of active writing stands out. Remember not to strip passive from your dialogue: people often speak passively. It can say reams about them psychologically. And when you are transforming to active, don't think that a vicious verb makes your writing fierce. It might when used strategically. Not so much when used to dress up the manuscript for the sake of interesting verbs. If I want that in my literature, I'll read a thesaurus. Tension, plot, character arc -- this stuff makes the story. Pretty verbs take away from it because words are stage directors: they're supposed to hide in the background, silently directing. You don't want your stage director wearing hot pink and pouncing on the stage in the middle of a tense scene to sing a solo.


These tips might seem elementary to some of you, but I could have used this note back when I was dousing my manuscripts with misplaced whiches and odd solo singers.

PS: Adverbs and adjectives are lovely. Let us not obliterate them entirely, despite the popular tendency to suggest they all be deleted. You don't want a bunch of verbs and no adverbs. How uncreative...

Please correct me on anything above if I've misspoken. I'm speaking from opinion, not experience, and would welcome the latter!

(Writing talk! It's what we used to do! Back when I first joined the site, conversations like this were very friendly: we weighed in, shared suggestions, offered friendly insight on one another's viewpoints, shook hands all around and walked away with some new ideas. I feel that it has been far too long since we've done that.)

* A novel long since dead, but let us all mourn it independently, please.
** Ironically, I have no idea if I'm supposed to use "which" or "that" in this sentence. I've tried both. /faints

Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

Smelling salts applied. "Which" was correct in that sentence. smile Thanks for sharing your experience. I've had similar axioms thrown my way as well over the years.

Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

"Which" was correct in that sentence.

Ah, thank you! wink

Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

Great topic. I think a writer has to filter the advice they receive and make sure it matches their writing style. In my case, I was told my draft contained too many passive sentences. The advice was correct. While I worked to make the writing more active, I didn't remove every passive instance. Sometimes the sentences worked and writing needs some variety.

As a writer gains more experience, they'll develop their own style and use that as their guide. But there are no absolutes in writing, as in life.

Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

Anyone who has read Child's Jack Reacher books knows he uses "was" A LOT! Sometimes 5 or 6 times in one paragraph. Somehow he managed to get past the agent, publisher, and editor hurdles with his writing style.

Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

I agree, you have to write what fits your "voice". And as the writer pick and choose the suggestions given. I've learned the "right" way is what works and the "wrong" way is what doesn't. Following the rules to rigidly, makes for an uncreative, rigid manuscript. The best advice I was given was to read your work out loud. The ear can tell a flat note on the page, whereas the mind can gloss it over.

Thank you for the post.

7 (edited by Tom Oldman 2017-01-31 20:09:34)

Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

I agree also. I was urged to change to active versus passive in quite a few instances. In some instances I complied, but in others I did not. My style is my style. Should a demanding editor want me to change something, i might do it, but only under internal protest. If it changes what I meant to say or an impression I wanted to give, then no, I will not.

My novels have a lot of "telling" instead of "showing". That style features heavily in both W. E. B Griffin's books as well as the late Tom Clancy. Both of them seem to be doing okay as well as Lee Childs.

Reacting to reviewers is not compulsory. A wise author will, however, look at the advice with great care. In every review, there is always a nugget of information that helps improve your endeavor.

~Tom

Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

Do not mistake copulas and the progressive tenses for passive voice.

Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

njc wrote:

Do not mistake copulas and the progressive tenses for passive voice.

Agreed. I used to get reviews suggesting I remove all instances of "was." ALL OF THEM. Progressive tense has its purpose. It would be absurd to eliminate every "was." I can't imagine a reputable editor suggesting such a thing.

Tom Oldman wrote:

Reacting to reviewers is not compulsory. A wise author will, however, look at the advice with great care. In every review, there is always a nugget of information that helps improve your endeavor.

Yes, absolutely!

C. J. Driftwood wrote:

The best advice I was given was to read your work out loud. The ear can tell a flat note on the page, whereas the mind can gloss it over.

Another tip is to wait a couple months before you do that, as you may have passages of your work memorized if you've recently been working on it. I've tried reading my work aloud a couple months (er, years) later, and my goodness I saw oddities I didn't notice when I was close. Ahem, all those strange verbs. smile

Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

Here's one I have that stubbornly refuses to be trimmed of wases and weres. NJC and Janet Reid helped me get it down to three at one point, but as I added detail, it crept back up to five. This could be a good exercise for a writing class. :-)

Seven-year-old Apollo Julius Caesar III sat with his half-brothers in the game room of Domus Augusti, the Imperial palace in Rome, Italy on Earth. The brothers were perched in floating chairs in front of a galactic simulator made up of four command and control stations, one per child. Caligula was a year older than Apollo, and the twins, Romulus and Remus, a year younger.

As the only child of the Imperator and Imperatrix, Apollo was sole heir to the Imperium Romanum, and was guarded round the clock by a quartet of Candidatii, elite members of the Imperator’s Praetorian Guard. Unlike Apollo, his brothers were non legitimus — illegitimate sons of the Imperator.

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Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

corra wrote:
njc wrote:

Do not mistake copulas and the progressive tenses for passive voice.

Agreed. I used to get reviews suggesting I remove all instances of "was." ALL OF THEM. Progressive tense has its purpose. It would be absurd to eliminate every "was." I can't imagine a reputable editor suggesting such a thing.

However high school and college teachers have sometimes demanded that, in stories that chill the writer's marrow and drive to fury those walking fossils who learned actual grammar in high school.

Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

Good advice all around, Corra. But why did I never see your novel? I've read pretty much everything you've written in the forums or contests with great admiration - even when whopping me uspside the head, lol -- but don't recall ever seeing a novel. My loss, I'm sure. Damned eyes. Take care. Vern

Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

Thanks, sir! I posted about fifteen chapters of it when I first joined, and then I proceeded to rewrite the first chapter over and over from every possible angle until one of us gravely expired. smile

Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

jack the knife wrote:

Anyone who has read Child's Jack Reacher books knows he uses "was" A LOT! Sometimes 5 or 6 times in one paragraph. Somehow he managed to get past the agent, publisher, and editor hurdles with his writing style.

I think that maybe his writing style matches the reading style of his readers. Within their daily language they probably use the word 'was' as readily, often and in the same places as it is written within the prose they are reading.

Re: Two writing tips I've unlearned since joining TNBW.

Dill Carver wrote:
jack the knife wrote:

Anyone who has read Child's Jack Reacher books knows he uses "was" A LOT! Sometimes 5 or 6 times in one paragraph. Somehow he managed to get past the agent, publisher, and editor hurdles with his writing style.

I think that maybe his writing style matches the reading style of his readers. Within their daily language they probably use the word 'was' as readily, often and in the same places as it is written within the prose they are reading.

You probably have a point regarding common dialogue, but narrative, IMO, is a different matter. Anyway, my above observation was meant to point out that Child gets away with the "rules." And he's hardly the only bestselling author to do so. It would be interesting to see how their first-time manuscripts were received if they wrote then (before becoming famous) the way they write now. In other words, did they pay attention to the so-called writing axioms in order to get their feet in the door?