Topic: Query from a member - opinions needed

What is rape?

Is it only when someone is physically forced or does it also extend to coercion and manipulation also? And if so, when does 'trying to change someone's mind' become coercive or manipulative? What if the person is in a fragile mental state to begin with?

These are interesting questions, especially if we, as Romance writers, want to avoid rape as well as the 'borderline' questionable kind of situations in our writing. Times are changing in regard to this. For example, marital rape has only been recently recognized as a crime for example and still not everywhere, but at least there is some progress.

So what do you all think?

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Re: Query from a member - opinions needed

I know that in campus environments, the most recent policy approach has been "Yes means Yes." Having a clear affirmative on the part of both parties is the best way to avoid any misunderstandings. Under the "no means no" criteria, for example, silence or drunkenness could be misinterpreted as a "yes", because after all, he or she didn't ever actually _say_ no.

There are still a lot of gray areas here, but from a writer's perspective, I think the important thing is that the characters in question are given a moment when they conscientiously decide "This is what _I_ want." I don't see any issues with being persuaded into the moment (if we don't allow persuasion, all seduction would be off limits!), although coercion, in my mind, would move one into a rape category. Presumably, coercion would not be a question of "what I want" but rather of "what I feel like I have to do, or else..."

The implications of a fragile mental state are, in my mind, context dependent. Honestly, sometimes if you're in a fragile mental state, the best thing that can happen is a good bout of sex! But there are obviously other situations where fragile mental states can lead to situations of coercion. Again, I would say these have to be considered on a case-by-case basis, and going back, perhaps, to that criteria of what the character wants in that moment for his or herself. Also, is there the presence of a power differential in a relationship? (e.g., professor with student, boss with employee, etc.) If there is, that can also open the door to situations of coercion.

Good question!! And complex. I know I haven't covered all the bases here. I'm interested to see what others have to say.

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Re: Query from a member - opinions needed

Karin, that is a really good, complete response!

I tend to agree - if we take away any and all persuasion, it would be tragic. A loud and clear 'No' and the other person is still trying to change the other person's mind (and ESPECIALLY after a few more 'NO!!!!'s', each louder and stronger later), is the loud and clear boundary in my opinion that that has just moved to coercion and rape, even if the other person then say yes to get rid of the someone. In this case, it would be wise to rather not do it.

Fragile state of mind is a really tricky one. For one, how would the other person know that? So definitely more of the 'grey-er' areas.

I think "Yes means yes" is THE best solution to the problem instead of "No means no". Where I think it (can go) goes wrong is:

Is it California that now has something in place where two parties need to sign a mutually agree upon piece of paper (a contract of some sorts) these days? And I'm not sure if it includes which positions are allowed, where you can and can't touch the other person, etc. Apart from by the time you're done with writing and signing the bloody thing, any notion of romance and sex are probably killed dead-dead (it will take some serious skill to get back in the mood!), if anyone change their mind mid-way through for good reason (e.g. anal or rough sex with which you were clear upfront you're not comfortable with and you're saying so), if the other person then doesn't stop, it's rape according to me. But now the other part has a signed and agreed document that proves it's consensual .... Murky, murky waters!

I suspect the "Yes means yes" approach is maybe working too well for some (feminists mostly). I've been seeing, reading, and hearing a lot of noise about consensual sex where the woman cries rape the next day leaving the guy baffled. The reason is, and I paraphrase, 'the sex was bad and in the clear light of day I changed my mind'. Not before or during sex, THE NEXT DAY. Some (feminists mostly) are pushing for this to be categorized as rape too.

I suspect porn and the higher prevalence of one-night stands/first date sex/sex within 1-3 months even are probably contributing to this issue more than anything else. Gone are the days where couples took the time to get to know each other and each other's bodies in various ways without actual penetration ... Knowing before you sleep with a guy whether he really is gentle and caring because he has shown you it over time many times over. Knowing before you sleep with a woman whether she has had any bad experiences, her likes and dislikes, her body language ... It takes away so much of these 'modern' day problems IMO. But I digress.

Like you say, this is a complex issue. Now bring in the individual aspect where we all had different experiences and exposure to the other sex, and it gets real complicated really quick.

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Re: Query from a member - opinions needed

Well said, everything you write here.

The nice thing about fiction is that it's fiction. smile We can move our characters through the landscape of their worlds without having to worry about legalities of contracts and the muddied waters of morning-after regrets. ("Feminists" being a very broad term, I could actually point to some feminists who have argued our obsession with defining the legal limits of consent vs. rape, which has led to extremes such as signing contracts before getting into bed, is influenced more by our puritan culture than any woman-centered understanding of the nature of sexual violence.) I don't think bad sex should qualify as rape. (Though it might be kind of fun, if we could take a man to court for being inept in bed...That'd give Judge Judy something to talk about!) The fact that this sort of thing is happening is a reflection, I think, of our failure at teaching young people about the realities of sex. It's not always good, and often it's downright awkward. As you point out, if the couple doesn't take the time to establish some real intimacy - getting to know each other and each other's bodies before going all the way - sex is pretty well guaranteed to be unsatisfying. At least for the woman. Can't speak for the men.

The difficulty of rape in real life is that most often, no one else is there when it happens. So one has to choose whose word to trust, and since the burden usually falls on the victim to prove the guilt of her attacker, it makes the legal aspects very sticky, and the emotional aspects downright awful.

But our characters are never alone when they have sex; the author is there, and the readers are there. We walk with them through the whole development of the relationship. As authors, we can present the situation in such a way that it is clear to everyone whether the sex is consensual or not.

Now that I think about it, this is actually a good opportunity, to address through our fiction some of those muddy waters. Who knows? We might even help a reader or two understand better what it means to actually know someone before going to bed with them, and how to better recognize and express what she wants in the moment she wants it. That'd be kind of cool.

Delusions of grandeur, perhaps. But you never know. smile

Quote Post 4

Re: Query from a member - opinions needed

Karin Rita Gastreich wrote:

But our characters are never alone when they have sex; the author is there, and the readers are there. We walk with them through the whole development of the relationship. As authors, we can present the situation in such a way that it is clear to everyone whether the sex is consensual or not.

Now that I think about it, this is actually a good opportunity, to address through our fiction some of those muddy waters. Who knows? We might even help a reader or two understand better what it means to actually know someone before going to bed with them, and how to better recognize and express what she wants in the moment she wants it. That'd be kind of cool.

Delusions of grandeur, perhaps. But you never know. smile

In another Romance group, I've seen feedback on sex scenes that varies from 'this is rape' to 'this is unintentional rape' (not sure what that is, but as far as I can tell, this is where the author writes a scene thinking it's all consensual while the interpretation is anything but - however, this is so personal and based on the reader's background/experiences/exposure, that it could be a valid comment or not) to 'this is fine, some people might have an issue though' to 'no probs'.

The fantasy where the FMC is being seduced is usually the tricky ones. No surprise - my line where something cross from seduction to coercion is different to yours and to probably everyone else until we hit the line where it so bad and so clear it has crossed into the rape spectrum. But then again - is it wrong? It is fiction,right?

Best example I have is, a lot of people have an issue with the stalking behaviour of Christian Grey in 50 Shades and that this could cause women to agree/accept to dysfunctional relationships because it is sssssooooo romantic. Then we have the number of medical emergencies that increased where people got involved with BDSM because it looked cool to do in a book and had no idea what they were doing (apparently the research in the book wasn't too good/accurate - I don't know, I didn't read it and I have no knowledge of BDSM other than what I picked up in discussions on 50SOG). And a lot of people are now shouting we as writers need to take responsibility for what we write. Uhm, what the fudge?!!!!! You read Northern Skies and want to play with a sharp sword because you think Matthew is cool is my fault?! Please. Does it happen? You bet ya. But it's not my responsibility, sorry.

So yes, we can use our writing for 'evil' (like 50SOG - maybe) or 'good' (showing that taking your time to get to know each other is an option!). We can influence for sure. But we can't make anyone do anything - that is still individual choice. But I'm not going to change my writing necessarily unless I agree with the feedback that it could be interpreted as rape when it can also be interpreted as seduction. More murky water!

I'll stop talking now to give more member a chance! smile

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6 Reply by Janet Taylor-Perry (edited by Janet Taylor-Perry 2016-03-09 14:24:15)

Re: Query from a member - opinions needed

Looking at the question of mental stability. If a person suffers from some form of emotional disorder, coercion and manipulation, are tantamount to rape. The person may not be in the frame of mind to make a rational decision to have sex. If the other person is aware of this and still pushes or threatens with some form of retribution, it becomes rape.

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