Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

njc wrote:

Worse, 'dinky' sounds almost like 'dinghy'.

Haha! I suppose... I certainly don't want people thinking of a modern vessel...

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

I've had a lot of concern over the Pictii characters speech

The issue is that Pictish did not distinguish between the "v" and "z" sounds. So I started replacing "v"s with "z"s in order to indicate a Pictii accent.

I thought it was unobtrusive as most of the vowels and all of other consonants remained the same, but now it seems to be a reading block for a lot of people.

Here are the most used words:

haz for have

zery for very

ezer for ever

adzantage for advantage

slaze for slave

liz for live

Example:
Queen Muiredach says to Drech, "As ezer. My child is half Pictii. ... And to make matters worse, his mother was a slaze."

Is this hard to understand? Is it annoying? Should I just take it out?

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Not a problem for me.  You could use both letters together.

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Rebecca Vaughn wrote:
njc wrote:

Worse, 'dinky' sounds almost like 'dinghy'.

Haha! I suppose... I certainly don't want people thinking of a modern vessel...

So he can call them buckets.

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

When I know the accent is there, it is easy to read. Without knowing there's an accent, I feel like you've made a strange typo or created a new word. Might just be me, though. smile


-Elisheva

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

I find it hard. Maybe because the other words have normal grammar and order. It doesn't read like Mark Twain writing Huck Finn. If there was a word/verb switch or hyphenations, this might be easier

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

I find it hard. Maybe because the other words have normal grammar and order. It doesn't read like Mark Twain writing Huck Finn. If there was a word/verb switch or hyphenations, this might be easier

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

njc wrote:

Not a problem for me.  You could use both letters together.

Like "lizv" ?

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Elisheva Free wrote:

When I know the accent is there, it is easy to read. Without knowing there's an accent, I feel like you've made a strange typo or created a new word. Might just be me, though. smile


-Elisheva

If I state in the narration that the person spoke with a "Pictish accent" would that help?

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Rebecca Vaughn wrote:
Elisheva Free wrote:

When I know the accent is there, it is easy to read. Without knowing there's an accent, I feel like you've made a strange typo or created a new word. Might just be me, though. smile


-Elisheva

If I state in the narration that the person spoke with a "Pictish accent" would that help?

This will help. And also, and this is open for debate, why not consider only a word here or there as opposed to each and every word? Does this make sense?

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

amy s wrote:

I find it hard. Maybe because the other words have normal grammar and order. It doesn't read like Mark Twain writing Huck Finn. If there was a word/verb switch or hyphenations, this might be easier

Agh! I hate Huck Finn! sad


I can't change the grammar for Prince Drest who would have learn Brythonic as a child by the best tutors, but I could for Queen Muiredach who was born a commoner and had to learn Latin as an adult. It would read like this:

You are going to Pictland, Pendragon?
Would be:
You go-later to Pictland, Pendragon?

Haz you met a Pictii besides myself?
Would be:
You meet-before Pictii not me?

We are strange ones to you Britannae. Not alike at all. You do not speak /Maetae/ do you?
Would be:
We strange to you Britannae. Not same. You speak not /Maetae/?

You do not speak Pictish.
Would be:
You speak not Pictish.

Is this more clear? To hard to read?

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

AJ Reid wrote:
Rebecca Vaughn wrote:
Elisheva Free wrote:

When I know the accent is there, it is easy to read. Without knowing there's an accent, I feel like you've made a strange typo or created a new word. Might just be me, though. smile


-Elisheva

If I state in the narration that the person spoke with a "Pictish accent" would that help?

This will help. And also, and this is open for debate, why not consider only a word here or there as opposed to each and every word? Does this make sense?

It does

But "v" is not that common a letter (at least not in in my dialogue!). If I only did half of the Pictii "z"s, would it be enough to perceive an accent?

I think there are only eight words that have a "v" that the Pictii characters use, live, have, advantage, slave, very, ever, Eva, and I think one other.

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

I LOVE the wording and relay of the accent above!  Very clear, easy to read, and gets the different language across beautifully.  Do it!

PS. And it doesn't sound like Yoda!  Perfect.

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Rebecca Vaughn wrote:
AJ Reid wrote:
Rebecca Vaughn wrote:

If I state in the narration that the person spoke with a "Pictish accent" would that help?

This will help. And also, and this is open for debate, why not consider only a word here or there as opposed to each and every word? Does this make sense?

It does

But "v" is not that common a letter (at least not in in my dialogue!). If I only did half of the Pictii "z"s, would it be enough to perceive an accent?

I think there are only eight words that have a "v" that the Pictii characters use, live, have, advantage, slave, very, ever, Eva, and I think one other.

Reason behind my suggestion is that it might not necessarily be the 'accent' that is the issue, but more the overuse of 'strange' words ... less is sometimes better. Eight words seem not too bad, but if you use 2-3 of them in one sentence, it might get 'grating' to read i.e. not so much difficult to understand, just 'grating'.

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Rebecca Vaughn wrote:
amy s wrote:

I find it hard. Maybe because the other words have normal grammar and order. It doesn't read like Mark Twain writing Huck Finn. If there was a word/verb switch or hyphenations, this might be easier

Agh! I hate Huck Finn! sad


I can't change the grammar for Prince Drest who would have learn Brythonic as a child by the best tutors, but I could for Queen Muiredach who was born a commoner and had to learn Latin as an adult. It would read like this:

You are going to Pictland, Pendragon?
Would be:
You go-later to Pictland, Pendragon?

Haz you met a Pictii besides myself?
Would be:
You meet-before Pictii not me?

We are strange ones to you Britannae. Not alike at all. You do not speak /Maetae/ do you?
Would be:
We strange to you Britannae. Not same. You speak not /Maetae/?

You do not speak Pictish.
Would be:
You speak not Pictish.

Is this more clear? To hard to read?

Agree with Amy. This works as a very distinct 'voice'.

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Rebecca Vaughn wrote:

Agh! I hate Huck Finn! sad


I can't change the grammar for Prince Drest who would have learn Brythonic as a child by the best tutors, but I could for Queen Muiredach who was born a commoner and had to learn Latin as an adult. It would read like this:

You are going to Pictland, Pendragon?
Would be:
You go-later to Pictland, Pendragon?

Haz you met a Pictii besides myself?
Would be:
You meet-before Pictii not me?

We are strange ones to you Britannae. Not alike at all. You do not speak /Maetae/ do you?
Would be:
We strange to you Britannae. Not same. You speak not /Maetae/?

You do not speak Pictish.
Would be:
You speak not Pictish.

Is this more clear? To hard to read?

I agree with Amy and Janet. This not difficult to read and it's immediately obvious that it's an accent. Love it.


-Elisheva

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Actually ... I prefer what we have now.  It's easier for me to notice and read over than the change in grammar.

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

New Jersey, you are outnumbered by estrogen. Submit.

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Outvoted will suffice ... but my opinion stands.

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

Drech's conversation with Queen Muiredach in Chapter Three:

“You are going to Pictland, Pendragon?” came a cautious voice.
Drech glanced over his shoulder to see the queen standing behind his chair. He had been too consumed in his thoughts to notice that she rounded the head table to his seat.
“Oh, ie, Queen Muiredach,” he said, rising from his own chair. “I am.”
“Haz you met a Pictii besides myself?” she asked.
“Princess Eva, a Novantae,” Drech replied, “and of course in battle.”
The queen gave a hesitant smile. “We are strange ones to you Britannae. Not alike at all. You do not speak /Maetae/ do you?”
Her voice bounced off the four syllables as if it were striking bells instead of saying a word.
“Speak what, Madam?” Drech said, his ears trying to attune themselves to her utterance.
“You do not speak Pictish,” she said, as an explanation. 
“Ah! No, Madam,” Drech said with a light laugh. “I fear I do not. Yet Lord Orson does, as you know, and I believe one of the knights as well. Is that what it is called? May-eh-tay-eh?”
“Most certainly,” she giggled. “But do not say it like that, for it is nonsense. It is the speech of the Pictii of the south. My people. Pendragon, take care. There is much anger against the Britannae in that land.”
“Why is that, Queen?”
“You remember my first husband Prince Fulgen of Bryneich.”
“Ie, of course.”
Drech could not forget the man whose murder he solved and whose second killer was still free and unpunished.
“He led a campaign into Maetae land,” Queen Muiredach continued. “His army beat that of Prince Galam, a mighty general of much renown. It was a huge slaughter. Do not expect to be welcomed.”
Drech had to think on these words.
“The highest ruler is called the Brude,” she said. “If you meet him, do not speak to the interpreter, have one of your own interpret your words. Then the Brude will be forced to recognize you as an equal.”
“That is good advice, Madam,” Drech replied. “Thank you.”
“I must go and speak to Queen Elen. She is pregnant, you know. Although not near as far along as I am.”
Drech blinked in surprise, for he had not noticed Queen Muiredach's protruding stomach.
She cradled her growing belly with loving hands, but her eyes spoke fear.
“Are you well, Queen Muiredach?” Drech asked.
She gave a sorrowful laugh. “As ezer. My child is half Pictii. That is not the best thing to be in Rheged. And to make matters worse, his mother was a slaze.”
Drech had not thought of that. Of course the queen would be concerned about her child who, though heir to a lord, could be an outcast in his own land.
“My grandmother was a foreigner and a slave,” Drech replied.
“What?” she gasped, her eyes wide in shock.
“Ie,” Drech said. “It is true. She was a Gewissae, a barbarian, and until my grandfather married her, she was his slave.”
“She was a slaze? The Queen of all Albion was a slaze just as I was?”
Drech nodded. “She was in deed, Madam. Ie, many people did not like her because she was born poor and a Gewissae. But her sons, my father and my uncle, were loved and respected.”
“Thank you, Pendragon,” Queen Muiredach replied, with a sigh of relief. “You do not know how your words have helped me.”

With the grammar changed it would read like this:

“You go-later to Pictland, Pendragon?” came a cautious voice.
Drech glanced over his shoulder to see the queen standing behind his chair. He had been too consumed in his thoughts to notice that she rounded the head table to his seat.
“Oh, ie, Queen Muiredach,” he said, rising from his own chair. “I am.”
“You meet-before Pictii not me?” she asked.
“Princess Eva, a Novantae,” Drech replied, “and of course in battle.”
The queen gave a hesitant smile. “We strange to you Britannae. Not same. You speak not /Maetae/?”
Her voice bounced off the four syllables as if it were striking bells instead of saying a word.
“Speak what, Madam?” Drech said, his ears trying to attune themselves to her utterance.
You speak not Pictish,” she said, as an explanation. 
“Ah! No, Madam,” Drech said with a light laugh. “I fear I do not. Yet Lord Orson does, as you know, and I believe one of the knights as well. Is that what it is called? May-eh-tay-eh?”
“Certain,” she giggled. “But you say not it like that, for it nonsense. It speech of Pictii in south. Me people. Pendragon, you take care. There many anger against Britannae in Pictii land.”
“Why is that, Queen?”
“You remember me first husband, Prince Fulgen of Bryneich.”
“Ie, of course.”
Drech could not forget the man whose murder he solved and whose second killer was still free and unpunished.
“He led campaign into Maetae land,” Queen Muiredach continued. “He army beat Prince Galam, mighty general of much renown. It then huge slaughter. Expect not welcom.”
Drech had to think on these words.
“Highest ruler called Brude,” she said. “If you meet him, speak not to interpreter. Have you own man interpret you words. Then Brude force-then to recognize you as equal.”
“That is good advice, Madam,” Drech replied. “Thank you.”
“I need speak to Queen Elen. She pregnant, you know. Far not as long as I.”
Drech blinked in surprise, for he had not noticed Queen Muiredach's protruding stomach.
She cradled her growing belly with loving hands, but her eyes spoke fear.
“Are you well, Queen Muiredach?” Drech asked.
She gave a sorrowful laugh. “As ezer. My child half Pictii. That best thing not in Rheged. Worse, his mother before a slaze.”
Drech had not thought of that. Of course the queen would be concerned about her child who, though heir to a lord, could be an outcast in his own land.
“My grandmother was a foreigner and a slave,” Drech replied.
“What?” she gasped, her eyes wide in shock.
“Ie,” Drech said. “It is true. She was a Gewissae, a barbarian, and until my grandfather married her, she was his slave.”
“She before slaze? Queen all Albion before slaze same me?”
Drech nodded. “She was in deed, Madam. Ie, many people did not like her because she was born poor and a Gewissae. But her sons, my father and my uncle, were loved and respected.”
“Thank you, Pendragon,” Queen Muiredach replied, with a sigh of relief. “You know not you word help me.”

Is this too hard to understand?

Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

njc wrote:

Actually ... I prefer what we have now.  It's easier for me to notice and read over than the change in grammar.


Ah, this possess a problem, as of all the Pictii characters, Queen Muiredach actually has the most lines (She appears in Books 2, 3, 4, and 6). If the change of grammar is too hard to understand, I do not feel comfortable using it for such a character.

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

I think it's harder than it needs to be.

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

I disagree. Rebecca is so immersed in the actual facts of this time period. This part feels real to me. The Queen's speech isn't stilted. The 'slaze' makes sense and is in context with Drech's story. I like it a lot.

Only sentence I had a problem with was, "Worse, his mother before a slaze." 

She is talking about herself, isn't she? I would clarify this. Otherwise, this reads as if she is speaking of a different person.

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

The grammar is harder for me to read through than the spelling.  Since Drech (presumably) has little difficulty, we should have little difficulty, so stay in his perspective.
IMO.
YMMV.

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Re: Titles in The Pendragon and The Beast of Caer Baddan

You are an ornery soul.

'Tis why I thing thou art cool.