1 Topic by dagnee (edited by dagnee 2014-11-19 22:45:00)

Topic: Plot holes

*Spoiler alert for those who haven't seen or read Gone Girl.*

While I was thinking about the plot holes in my own novels I wondered if I was the only one to see them and if I were should I correct them even if none of the reviewers caught them.

Then I thought about Gone Girl and while it was a great read the whole plot hinged on how brilliant Amy was, but as it is with all criminals they are not near as brilliant at fooling police as they think they are, and were this not a work of fiction there is no way Amy could have gotten away with murder. The reason? She was seen, albeit disguised, dark short hair, heavier, meeting her supposed kidnapper, in a public place. Also she was recognized before that by two people in the cabin park she stayed while Nick, her husband, was being accused of her murder.

Amy might be banking on those two people not wanting to come forward because they stole her money at gun point, but when it comes to murder...if they were ever arrested they would flip on her for a lighter sentence...or, and this is not likely, come forward out of a sense of justice.

Amy might also think that she had a really good disguise, IMO she did NOT, but her face was all over the media for weeks, so much so that you'd have to be on the moon not to know she was missing. Also, while she was in disguise the guy she killed was not. Someone in that crowd could have come forward while she was still missing with a reported sighting.

And then there's the mother of the man she killed. For the author, Gillian Flynn, to take for granted everyone would dismiss her because she's a 'mental case', a grieving mother defending her son, the kidnapper, is idealistic.

As for Nick staying with her because her story was air tight and she would be believed and not him is unrealistic, because as I've shown, there were big plot holes that a first year police detective could see. 

So...why did such a flimsy plot become a best seller and a hit movie? Because the author's writing caused the reader to suspend their disbelief and go along for the ride. Alfred Hitchcock called the moment when you realize the book you've just read or the movie you just saw couldn't have happened the way it was portrayed 'refrigerator' moments. He said that the average movie goer will go home after a film, open the refrigerator door, reach for that midnight snack and then the plot hole occurs to them...like how did the plane find Cary Grant in North By Northwest?

So...my question is this: If you find a plot hole in your story and no one else does, do you fix it? Or hope your writing is good enough to suspend the reader's disbelief?

Quote Post 1

Re: Plot holes

Well, Cary Grant was told to go there, if my memory serves. But there were other plot holes in that film, and they didn't bother me. Great movie!

I discovered a minor plot hole in my novel, "Teammates," that no TNBW reviewer spotted, and it got past my picky-picky editor as well. So I'm going to fix it. Somebody, out of the millions who will read the book, would be bound to spot it. smile

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3 Reply by dagnee (edited by dagnee 2014-11-19 22:49:10)

Re: Plot holes

JACK...Thanks for up-dating me on North by Northwest. All I could remember was that Grant was let out of a bus surrounded by fields. The next time it's on TCM I'll watch it. But I did remember wondering what they thought chasing him with a plane would accomplish and I remember Hitchcock putting it in the film because it looked exciting....Again, I'll have watch the movie. Jack you should get Gillian Flynn's editor...evidently they weren't as picky as yours.

dags:)
Ps....I googled NXNW and you were right. Now I'll have to think of another example...if you can let me know...Or if anyone reading this can think of a film with a big plot hole...SHARE....:)
PPS...And I forgot the plane spewed bullets...still it was a pretty inefficient way to kill a man....but it was dramatic to watch...and you said the plot holes didn't bother you...why didn't they....????

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Re: Plot holes

Okay, in The Bridge on the River Quai, at the end, when William Holden gets killed, Jack Hawkins gets defensive with his Thai women bearers, and protests that he had no choice. What? To kill Holden with his mortars? No, Holden was killed by Japanese rifle fire. I never got that scene.

In NBNW, the plot from that point on depended on Cary sitting across from Eva in the dining car. So how could that be "arranged" on purpose? And in the very beginning, the fortuitous event of Cary just happening to be there when the victim is knifed and then getting the knife in his hand... But I didn't care! It was exciting, I like Cary Grant, and it was a good movie!

In Heat, with Pacino and DeNiro, when DeNiro's crew is coming out of the bank they just robbed, Pacino, who's heading to the bank but is still blocks away, somehow can see that far and says, "They're already coming out of the bank!" And then at the end, from a similar distance away, he sees DeNiro's girlfriend waiting for him in the car. And then, when DeNiro is running away, Pacino just happens to guess right on the direction he took. But I still liked that flick! The shootout scene in the streets of LA - based on a real-life shootout, I've heard - is awesome. Great acting by all concerned, including Val Kilmer.

I'll think of some more, given the time. The point is that, though some WTF moments occur in films, the good ones don't let those moments ruin the movie.

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5 Reply by dagnee (edited by dagnee 2014-11-20 01:15:34)

Re: Plot holes

jack the knife wrote:

Okay, in The Bridge on the River Quai, at the end, when William Holden gets killed, Jack Hawkins gets defensive with his Thai women bearers, and protests that he had no choice. What? To kill Holden with his mortars? No, Holden was killed by Japanese rifle fire. I never got that scene.

In NBNW, the plot from that point on depended on Cary sitting across from Eva in the dining car. So how could that be "arranged" on purpose? And in the very beginning, the fortuitous event of Cary just happening to be there when the victim is knifed and then getting the knife in his hand... But I didn't care! It was exciting, I like Cary Grant, and it was a good movie!

In Heat, with Pacino and DeNiro, when DeNiro's crew is coming out of the bank they just robbed, Pacino, who's heading to the bank but is still blocks away, somehow can see that far and says, "They're already coming out of the bank!" And then at the end, from a similar distance away, he sees DeNiro's girlfriend waiting for him in the car. And then, when DeNiro is running away, Pacino just happens to guess right on the direction he took. But I still liked that flick! The shootout scene in the streets of LA - based on a real-life shootout, I've heard - is awesome. Great acting by all concerned, including Val Kilmer.

I'll think of some more, given the time. The point is that, though some WTF moments occur in films, the good ones don't let those moments ruin the movie.

I knew I could count on you. Wow...you really pay attention to details in movies. But you hit on  something I think applies to writing too, because really all a movie is, is a film version of a script, and that's 'the good ones don't let those moments ruin the movie.'

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Re: Plot holes

Oop[s, I meant Kwai, rather than Quai. My bad!!

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7 Reply by maxkeanu (edited by maxkeanu 2014-11-20 03:44:53)

Re: Plot holes

North by Northwest-
In film school we had Ernest Lehman as a guest one night, wrote the original screenplay for NNW. Everyone was expecting great literary and cinema revelations, but Ernest admitted that, "we just made it all up (the locations) as we went along". So, like a rough draft (or a thousand cans of raw, unedited film... cans, as it was called in the old days) the real creativity happens in the editing room or appears as the novel is edited.

I also met Cary Grant's maid. And, I met Hitch.

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Re: Plot holes

maxkeanu wrote:

North by Northwest-
In film school we had Ernest Lehman as a guest one night, wrote the original screenplay for NNW. Everyone was expecting great literary and cinema revelations, but Ernest admitted that, "we just made it all up (the locations) as we went along". So, like a rough draft (or a thousand cans of raw, unedited film... cans, as it was called in the old days) the real creativity happens in the editing room or appears as the novel is edited.

I also met Cary Grant's maid. And, I met Hitch.

I remember hearing that story on TCM, Max. Not the part about them having cans and cans of film, but that he and Hitchcock...I have to write out his name because I didn't meet him wink...sat around and made it up. Maybe how they got Cary to sit across from Eva was left on the cutting room floor.

I kid you about meeting 'Hitch', but count me very impressed, jealous and in awe. As for Cary Grant's maid...what did she have to say?

dags:)

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Re: Plot holes

jack the knife wrote:

Oop[s, I meant Kwai, rather than Quai. My bad!!

That's okay, I spelled Gillian with a J and had to correct it. I blame it on our youth....

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Re: Plot holes

dagnee wrote:
maxkeanu wrote:

North by Northwest-
In film school we had Ernest Lehman as a guest one night, wrote the original screenplay for NNW. Everyone was expecting great literary and cinema revelations, but Ernest admitted that, "we just made it all up (the locations) as we went along". So, like a rough draft (or a thousand cans of raw, unedited film... cans, as it was called in the old days) the real creativity happens in the editing room or appears as the novel is edited.

I also met Cary Grant's maid. And, I met Hitch.

I remember hearing that story on TCM, Max. Not the part about them having cans and cans of film, but that he and Hitchcock...I have to write out his name because I didn't meet him wink...sat around and made it up. Maybe how they got Cary to sit across from Eva was left on the cutting room floor.

I kid you about meeting 'Hitch', but count me very impressed, jealous and in awe. As for Cary Grant's maid...what did she have to say?

dags:)

What the maid said: "Why Mr. Keanu, you're the spitting image of Cary! Mr. Grant won't be home until tomorrow. Why don't you come in and we'll get  to know each other...."

In truth, I was the just an errand boy for my film school and I met many Hollywood film industry people way back when. I even met Jaws! Richard Kiel. And, Steve McQueen and, and, and, and....

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Re: Plot holes

Max, I can't imagine meeting all those people. I wouldn't even be able to say hello. Your memories are especially precious since most of Golden Hollywood is gone. Maybe there's a memoir in you somewhere about your days in film school.

About the maid...I hope she was wearing a little French maid uniform and made you feel like Cary Grant...

Impressed in West Texas, dags smile

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12 Reply by dagnee (edited by dagnee 2014-11-20 23:30:22)

Re: Plot holes

Jack
I was wondering if the way medicine was portrayed in 'the old days' of movies bothered you.
I've had just a splattering of medical training and it drives me crazy. Like the other day I was watching the movie Alias The Doctor, made in 1932, and the MC, a doctor of course, looks at a child car accident victims head for five seconds and announces that the boy has a skull fracture and a hematoma. Now, I might be wrong and feel free to correct me, (like I could stop you;)), but didn't you need x-rays in 1932 to diagnose a skull fracture? Also, the kid was whimpering through out the scene. Is that possible? AND does it matter?
dags smile
PS...Oh, yeah, I forgot, he did brain surgery in the same room he used for reception....:D

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Re: Plot holes

Well, Dags, in the old days a doc had to rely on the PHYSICAL EXAMINATION to make a diagnosis. He didn't have MRIs and ultrasounds to help. I remember being a medical student rotating through Surgery when a senior resident pontificated, "The physical exam ain't worth the powder to blow it up." And that was a long time ago! In the old days, a surgeon, based on his findings and the medical history related by the patient, would hoist the kid onto the kitchen table, give some ether - if he had some - through a gauze mask, and take out the kid's appendix. "Memoirs of a Small-Town Surgeon" by John Brooks Wheeler (1935) makes for some fascinating reading. That small town was in Vermont, so I have some bias in that regard. smile I admire those old guys, the pioneers, who blazed the trail for future surgeons to follow. They knew their stuff! Sorry for the rant, but your post struck a chord with me.

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14 Reply by dagnee (edited by dagnee 2014-11-21 03:40:02)

Re: Plot holes

jack the knife wrote:

Well, Dags, in the old days a doc had to rely on the PHYSICAL EXAMINATION to make a diagnosis. He didn't have MRIs and ultrasounds to help. I remember being a medical student rotating through Surgery when a senior resident pontificated, "The physical exam ain't worth the powder to blow it up." And that was a long time ago! In the old days, a surgeon, based on his findings and the medical history related by the patient, would hoist the kid onto the kitchen table, give some ether - if he had some - through a gauze mask, and take out the kid's appendix. "Memoirs of a Small-Town Surgeon" by John Brooks Wheeler (1935) makes for some fascinating reading. That small town was in Vermont, so I have some bias in that regard. smile I admire those old guys, the pioneers, who blazed the trail for future surgeons to follow. They knew their stuff! Sorry for the rant, but your post struck a chord with me.

I knew it would. Thanks for little medical history lesson, I love to hear about what it was like in the old days. I guess I was being too hard on the screenplay, but still...I have to agree with the senior resident.
However, it makes me wonder just how over-priced our medical care is today when so many kitchen appendectomies patients survived...if he HAD ether??? Maybe they didn't...lol...
If you think of any films that offended your medical sensibilities let me know...I know when I see someone who's supposed to be an artist sit in front of a canvas painting over the same spot without any paint on their brushes drives me crazy...it's like just hire a real painter for a hand close up...

dags smile

Quote Post 14

Re: Plot holes

jack the knife wrote:

Well, Dags, in the old days a doc had to rely on the PHYSICAL EXAMINATION to make a diagnosis. He didn't have MRIs and ultrasounds to help. I remember being a medical student rotating through Surgery when a senior resident pontificated, "The physical exam ain't worth the powder to blow it up." And that was a long time ago! In the old days, a surgeon, based on his findings and the medical history related by the patient, would hoist the kid onto the kitchen table, give some ether - if he had some - through a gauze mask, and take out the kid's appendix. "Memoirs of a Small-Town Surgeon" by John Brooks Wheeler (1935) makes for some fascinating reading. That small town was in Vermont, so I have some bias in that regard. smile I admire those old guys, the pioneers, who blazed the trail for future surgeons to follow. They knew their stuff! Sorry for the rant, but your post struck a chord with me.

Very interesting history of the medical field, Jack.....the few times I've needed medical info for my stories I either google, or ask a surgeon friend of mine, but it is nice to have another resource on hand.....And just for the record you don't look old enough to know all that ole time medicine.

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Re: Plot holes

I read a lot! smile

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Re: Plot holes

dagnee wrote:

So...my question is this: If you find a plot hole in your story and no one else does, do you fix it? Or hope your writing is good enough to suspend the reader's disbelief?

I'm assuming you still can i.e. it's not in print and you have a trillion copies ready to sell.  Then yes, I would, irrespective of whether my writing is good enough.  I would not be able to leave it.  Now, if it's been printed and I have a trillion copies to sell, that'd probably be my last book.  I'll then take up painting.

Jack, I'd like to know what the minor plot hole was in "Teammates"?!  Wow, and even your editor missed it.  Makes one wonder why you bother with TNBW and editors, huh?  big_smile

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Re: Plot holes

janet reid wrote:

Jack, I'd like to know what the minor plot hole was in "Teammates"?!  Wow, and even your editor missed it.  Makes one wonder why you bother with TNBW and editors, huh?  big_smile

When Jim was researching Cathy in Facebook and discovered she was engaged to Tim Howard, he immediately wondered if this Tim was the same Tim who they had left in the car as a baby. But I'd never mentioned to that point that Jim ever learned the baby's first name! So I had to go back and get that in. Yeah, two editors missed that. smile

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