Topic: The Tribe v4

Hey everyone. I've started a radical rewrite of the Tribe, the Town, and the Spirits. Yes, I've changed the title.
1. I want to limit the chapter word count to about 1500 words. This makes for easier reading on the train or in bed before sleeping.
2. I will try to keep the character names per word count to about 2 names/600 words.
3. I want to simplify some items, such as where the demons come from. This one is still tough because I like that a Greek god like Bacchus was a wine god. It's a great god to have relatives to manage saloons. However, I discovered that the Maya had a god of alcoholic beverages (Aken). So, I almost have to mix deities outside of the Cheyenne culture to make some things work.
4. Some name changes are needed.
5. A stern eye must be kept on who might be reading this. Audience is significant.

My first need for help is whether or not God would refer to Satan as Satan or as Lucifer. I start Chapter 1 with Satan and God talking. I assume that almost everyone knows who Lucifer is. And it does sound more sophisticated to me than Satan. I'm really tempted to switch over to Lucifer for Chapter 1. BUT does that mean I should keep it as Lucifer the entire book? Or only when God talks to him.

Thanks for any help.
George FLC

Quote Post 1

Re: The Tribe v4

Do you foresee needing any other gods from outside the Cheyenne culture and demons/angels from the Bible? Is there no way to write the scene without pulling in gods from other mythologies? One of the reasons I commented the way I did near the end of the previous draft, is that it seemed like you were throwing everything into the story but the kitchen sink, which left virtually no time to flesh them out. Do you need to introduce a god specifically for wine? Does that god do/contribute anything else to the story? Will that god be a main character like Romano, a supporting character like Nnamani, or just someone who hangs around the saloon for a scene or two then disappears? Does he contribute significantly to the plot? At one point in Connor, I introduced a suspected infiltrator (a bishop) in one scene only to have him thrown out of the Vatican a few paragraphs later. Needless to say, I need to find a way to fix that. It adds virtually nothing to introduce and then immedialy toss a character, especially one who is supposedly evil.

Just some random musings without having even read the new chapter. smile

Who is the target audience by the way?

I should have some time to review your latest chapter sometime this month. I have to be careful how often I say that, though, as I'm under the gun to finish my estate documents, which has turned into a real bear.

Quote Post 2

Re: The Tribe v4

Dirk B. wrote:

Do you foresee needing any other gods from outside the Cheyenne culture and demons/angels from the Bible? Is there no way to write the scene without pulling in gods from other mythologies? One of the reasons I commented the way I did near the end of the previous draft, is that it seemed like you were throwing everything into the story but the kitchen sink, which left virtually no time to flesh them out. Do you need to introduce a god specifically for wine? Does that god do/contribute anything else to the story? Will that god be a main character like Romano, a supporting character like Nnamani, or just someone who hangs around the saloon for a scene or two then disappears? Does he contribute significantly to the plot? At one point in Connor, I introduced a suspected infiltrator (a bishop) in one scene only to have him thrown out of the Vatican a few paragraphs later. Needless to say, I need to find a way to fix that. It adds virtually nothing to introduce and then immedialy toss a character, especially one who is supposedly evil.

Just some random musings without having even read the new chapter. smile

Who is the target audience by the way?

I should have some time to review your latest chapter sometime this month. I have to be careful how often I say that, though, as I'm under the gun to finish my estate documents, which has turned into a real bear.

Hey Dirk,
My audience will probably be heavily Catholic and Protestant. I agree, the spirit/demon probably has to be more significant than just a saloon spook. I think I will have enough Indians and townsfolk to keep a fairly high character name count. Demon names might overly complicate things. However, I will have to mix things a little between tribal and biblical spirits. We shall see.

I was thinking about pulling in the Lakota as well BUT I can accomplish what I want with keeping it all a single tribe.

Good comments. Thanks.

Quote Post 3

Re: The Tribe v4

You have some self-inflicted wounds in this first scene, but I think easily solved next pass.

For example, Lucifer says '...but You'll never win'
And it really caught my attention because would Lucifer really add the capitalized reverence... or is it a translated reverence (assuming they're speaking some language that existed with romanized letters at inception (Sadly, even Aramaic won't do)). This creates a horrible linguistic rabbit hole.

I cannot tolerate imperfection within My perfect creation.
This launches yet another rabbit hole. If the creation is perfect, then so is Lucifer (being part of that creation?). Thus the perfection means Lucifer can also freely create? Also, would God revere himself?

[whether or not God would refer to Satan as Satan or as Lucifer]
Shaitan sounds distinctly human, and for God to use it is kinda mocking, which is not how he's presented in scripture

Lastly, the speech between them is distinctively modern. Some random examples:
Eg: Your church is so feeble => Your church is feeble
Eg: The church tolerates so much division => Division runs rampart within the ranks of Y/your church
Eg: I won't need to get complicated. They just need to be introduced =>  ???
I'd consider stripping contractions and pragmatics. Example: I won't get complicated => I need not engage in petty strife (Don't use this, it's a terrible suggestion but best way I could think off the top of my head to dance around the "won't")... the 'just' is also super modern. Maybe "They need but be introduced" or even remove entirely. So the most eye-catching terms: so, just, even, such.

Re contractions example: Hell isn't in my future => Hell lies not in my future
DISCLAIMER!!! All these suggestions are aimed at you wanting the reader to hit the ground running one page 1 paragraph 1 with God and Satan speaking. If this IS how they normally speak and will do so for the rest of the title, it's fine as-is

You ask why I didn't review for the points, I say I need a few more chapters to better grasp the wider context

Quote Post 4

Re: The Tribe v4

If you're counting votes, I prefer "Satan", although either is perfectly acceptable. In a YouTube documentary I watched some time ago, the narrator pronounced it Se-tahn rather than Say-ten. I really liked it cause it was cool to hear a different pronounciation. Perhaps you can find a way to slip in Lucifer as a way that God addresses him:

Satan stepped before the Lord.
God said, "Well, if it isn't Lucifer, my prince of darkness."
Satan flinched. He hated the name Lucifer.

or

Lucifer stepped before the Lord.
God said, "Well, if it isn't Satan, my prince of darkness."
Lucifer flinched. He hated the name Satan.

With a brief exchange like the above, you would have introduced three of Satan's names (if you count prince of darkness), which would allow you to have God address him by one of those names, while everyone else uses one of the others. I did that with Connor/Constantino/Lord/Adamo. Different characters will use different names for him in book two, although the narration will always use Connor to minimize confusion.

Quote Post 5

Re: The Tribe v4

Thanks Dirk,
Very good comments. I like it. I might put it as:

"God said, "Well, if it isn't Satan, the prince of darkness."
Very minor change.

It's great that you have three different names in a couple lines.

And yes, I'm keeping track. So far, it's Satan 1, Lucifer 1. I friend outside this site suggested Lucifer.

Quote Post 6