fate/destiny in fiction (Page 2 of 4)

Understandng how predestination and destiny work within reality could be helpful. Thing is, predetermination interferes with free will. However, time is not linear. Imagine, if you will, that all of our reality existed on a dvd. Your moment that you are experiencing, your perception, is a specific point of data on the disc. That does not mean that the data for all the rest of time does not exist at the very same moment on either side of that point.

Now, here is where it gets interesting, and, while this may sound more like fiction than fact, I assure you that this is, in fact, reality. Reality is a construct that is being held together by all of us. Our souls, if you will, power reality. We create reality in order to have a meaningful experience. Our souls, however, existing both inside and outside reality, can perceive the data that is on either side of the exact moment that we are proverbially watching on the DVD. Therefore, one who is in tune with one's soul may become privy to what will happen in the future. In addition to this, all of us here, all of our souls, are part of a group consciousness. Because we are creating reality together, we all decide on certain directions for us, as a whole, to travel. Thus, we create certain points that are, essentially, predetermined. Most things, however, do not effect the larger direction. Therefore, if you wish to make a change within reality, it likely wont affect consensus, and it will be able to happen without interference from others. Therefore, much of our choice is allowed to us.

So, what of destiny, you say ? Well, the thing is, each and everything within our reality is subject to choice. Consensus on even the largest of events and direction can change. So, if everyone, or the vast majority, chooses a different path for life, that consensus changes, and the data on the disc changes. Even though the point of perception is localized, all the data, past, present, and future, can all change in an instant.

This happens all the time. However, we are not aware of it. This is because our physical memories, the physical data being stored on our physical brains, is comprised of the data that has been along the point of perception on the previous segment of the DVD, which has changed. So, even though things changed throughout reality, we are unaware of it.

But, since the soul is able to perceive the data and exists outside of the physical data, it is able to perceive the changes. This is why someone is more likely to be privy to the changes if they are in tune with their soul.

So, basically, we have free will on a small scale, a large scale, and we have predetermination on a small scale (individual happenings that lead up to the events determined by consensus) and a large scale (consensus). If we, for ourselves, choose to change something that does not align with consensus, it will either be negated or will create a course correction throughout reality. For example, the hero could kill himself, creating a disagreement with consensus, since he does ultimately have free will, and, even though that WAS his destiny, now reality will have to shift to bring about the same end effect. (I dont mean necessarily that massive changes would happen, but things would start changing, leading up to the same conclusion, unless consensus changed as well)

Thats pretty much how things work in real life, so hopefully it helps your thoughts on your character.

And to those that would instantly write this off as ridiculous, if you have ever had deja vu, you have experienced it on some level. And, good luck explaining the observer effect or quantum mechanics.

It is that second option (not having a choice and acting to no effect), I'd have to say does not belong in good sci-fi because it denies the law of causality and identity.

Physicists believe that time does not flow as we imagine it. Instead, our entire existence in all its moments is already realized. Imagine it as a loaf of bread chopped into very thin slices. These slices are the "moments" that we perceive. Our brain puts these together so that it appears that time flows.

How does this fit into free will and destiny? If a person's path is already laid out, already "baked" then there is no free will. How can you change your course if you don't know what it is you need to change? It is already determined. Let's say you are hit by a bus next Tuesday. This is your destiny. The only way to change this is to have someone tell you that you will be hit by a bus next Tuesday so that you can avoid it. Then, you have some semblance of free will. So, when a seer or oracle reveals a person's destiny, they are actually providing an avenue for free will, for they are giving the person a chance to deviate from the path that has already been created.

This is how I like to think about free will an destiny in the construct of what we know about time.
- C

This is exactly what I was saying with my DVD analogy. Then, when, and if, the person changes the course of events through free will, the entire bread loaf changes. My one addition is that changes can be made retroactively back in time in the same manner as forward. This has even been proven to happen on a small scale at the very least through the observer effect in quantum mechanics. We collapse wave functions of probability going back past the proverbial slice of bread that is the moment of perception. If we were to consider much of reality as existing in a state of probability, similar to the bread loaf being one of many possible bread loafs (albeit only one is manifest at any given moment), then collapsing a wave function can realistically change everything, going all the way back to the beginning of time.

Also, I would add that throughout storytelling, oracles and seers have sometimes been known to speak with veils and sometimes only reveal information to guide one toward a particular end, not to avoid it. So, theres kind of a lot of play there for what you can do.

NJC, could we get a bit of elaboration on that ? I am unfamiliar with that work and find it quite perplexing. Going off of what I see there, I would think that the man has created a paradox in which free will was forced, thereby keeping free will from truly being a choice, which therefore isnt free will, etc..... Or, perhaps it is implying that free will isnt really free will, since our actions are guided by chronocommunication, and that we only perceive it to be free will. Either way, I could be wrong and would like to hear other's thoughts on it.

lol I like the bread loaf, too, though.

This is a video some might be interested in. It isnt directly related to time/space or the free will vs pre determination debacle, but it does have some pretty hefty inferences about reality. They screwed up on the very end, though. Of course, that is based on Schrodinger's egotistical belief that HE was the one that would collapse the superposition, and not the cat itself. This is because of a common human failure to realize that we are not the center of the universe. In reality, the cat, too, is perfectly capable of collapsing the superposition, as it, too, is just as much a part of the group consciousness as we are. So, basically, ignore the ending. WE are the observers. The cat is an observer. All conscious life is comprised of observers. The logic for the rest is pretty solid, though. It basically starts with the double slit and builds up from there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM

The concept of FATE is utterly revisionist and belongs only to those who actually survive said FATE. Utterly.

Or is it: UDDERLY?

I dunno. And neither do YOU.

And that means YOU.

Still... It's a reasonable theme to explore. At least in fiction.

What physicist believes that? Although the first part can have meaning once you get around to mentioning what it is that "we" imagine, but the second part is rubbish.

I don't want to give Blish's story away, but imagine you could eavesdrop on every radio message ever sent, and you set about making sure that history unfolded the way it was "supposed to."

Damn, I gave Blish's story away

lolol naw dude. I, at least for the most part, couldnt care less. Anyone thats douchebag enough to get someone in trouble over something so ridiculous or enforce a law that isnt good for the people is, in my opinion, the bad guy, deserving of the very fate he would wish or bestow upon others, albeit for greater cause in itself. I literally mean that I am not a user of that substance. Although, I would like to say that, if I were, it would make my arguments no less valid in any way, shape, or form. If I were on that substance and using such logic so easily, what would that say about your negative views toward said substance ? I was simply saying that the assumption and attempt to diminish my viewpoint based on something so arbitrary and, in addition, completely incorrect, was fairly amusing. Aka, the epic fail.

Actually, that is the general consensus amongst physicists. So much so, that when a physicist disagrees, it is seen as controversial (mostly because the disagreement is blatantly and obviously wrong)

http://www.livescience.com/29081-time-r … molin.html

lol

And here are some quotes from everyone's favorite physicist, Albert Einstein !

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

"Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."

http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/E … uotes.html

And, as I said, and as is in the video I posted before, time has already been partially proven to be an illusion via the double slit experiment, in which placing the detection device at the very end of the experiment, they were able to show that it collapsed the wave function going back in time, meaning that the current moment is not all that exists at that current moment.

So more along the lines of my second guess ? I would say that chaos theory would pretty much determine my efforts vain. There are far too many variables aside from just what goes over radio. Still, it is an interesting concept. I picture a lonely robot, trying in sadness to bring back humanity, effortfully trying to sway the events of the past through radio communication alone, and it never working. Well, I suppose, eventually, he would succeed in bringing back humanity, but it would never be in quite the same capacity, I should think. Just my thoughts. lol. A most interesting concept, though.

^ touche, to a point, but, to a point, a man must stand somewhere, so it is best to know where to stand, and if determined only from the best drawn of conclusions one might find, then one should be determined to draw the best of conclusions. At the very least, one should know where one stands, even if he knows not which place is best. And, upon finding a place more stable than his current one, he should have the courage and willpower to move. Only a fool knows not his standing and refuses not only to be moved, but to look about himself for the lay of the land.

And thought and question are the marks of positive, forward movement. One cannot progress through life or soul without it.

So, basically, it is important to understand the noselessness of man, but it is also important to continue trying to come to the best conclusions possible and not backtrack on the progress we have made, especially not simply for the sake of willful ignorance. We may not know much, but we do know little, and if we arent guided by the little we know, then we are truly lost.

My friend is right--you guys are nuts. 
Don't you have anything better to do with your time, such as write?
Girls, let's make more valuable use of our time--let's go get a drink!