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(9 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

"I'd have to say the writer has written on level to elicit an emotional response"  Ah!  Readers reactions are entirely subjective. My reaction will differ from yours.
I think critique groups are helpful in cases like this because you can ask questions and find out where you're touching emotional strings and where you are are not.  Experimentation is an important tool for growth in the craft of writing.  Sometimes you get chicken, other times you get the feathers, but as long as you are learning it is a success. I would also always be concerned about a scene's ability to further the plot. I know I've written a lot of scenes that were extremely gratifying to me, but were essentially extraneous to the story - I've deleted them. Readers who enjoy the novels of Jessica Beck (The Donut Mysteries) tell me my work sucks and to them it does indeed.  I did include a recipe for making coffee in one novel -- my joke.

2

(9 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Examine your emotional state at the time you cried.  Our writing often represents elements of our emotional and moral core.  It's not unusual in my opinion to feel strongly about a piece of work that you've struggled to complete successfully.  If you feel, however, that your emotions are riding on your shirtsleeves, then it may be time to worry.  My first line of inquiry is a family doctor I trust.

Well said!

I don't think there is one way to write either.  I do think that anyone aspiring to write should realize the requirement for craft in writing.  An aspiring writer should strive to master the language and have a mastery of themselves. There's a place in writing for realism as well as abstract writing.  I have always thought of literary fiction as literature -- maybe wannabe literature, but something far different than mindless, escape and entertainment.  Oh, I'm not a misogynist. Women constitute the overwhelming majority of fiction readers.  The money is in the market they create. If a woman wants to read about a mystery solved by a little kitten who also writes recipes for Toll House cookies, good for her!  I hope the kitten includes catnip in the recipe -- some readers may want to substitute another type of cannabis.

As an undergraduate (many, many decades ago!) my sole drive was to write. To understand writing I took a course in aesthetics.  I read John Dewey. He described art as an experience.  This explains my response to a great degree.  I want my reader to experience the lives of my characters.  As such, my characters speak, think, feel, smell, and taste.  Their bodies move and respond to things such as threat or delight. As an artist I am also driven to influence my reader's perception.  In my first novel, my female protagonist had been raped. I was challenged to do this character. I studied rape and its effects on its victims.  I imagined myself as a woman who had been raped and also as a woman whose trust had been betrayed.  Am I a merchant of vicarious experiences? Well yes and so what?  A literary agent from Writers House in New York responded to me by way of rejection, "You certainly are not afraid to challenge yourself or your reader."  To be clear, I think fiction must respond in some way to the life of the reader for it to be believed and accepted as relevant. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Am I my characters?  Yes and no. To me the absolute critical element of fiction is to enable the reader to suspend disbelief and see your charcters as real and to experience their lives in his or her imagination. The experiences of my own life often influence how I portray a character.  Often though I need to approach character development very much like an actor would approach a part in a play.  This involves a great deal of study and introspection for me and, in some cases, places a burden on my family and friends.  Writing is an exercise in craft. It goes beyond the words we use.  It includes the world and lives that we create. I think reality is a far better word than truth.  I think a writer needs to mimic reality to make fiction believable.  One final comment.  I believe Mark Twain described himself as an observer.  We observe reality, it affects us, and we write.

7

(12 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Entered a "Best Unpublished Novel" contest.  The reviewers were "Book Lovers" and I believe  readers of commercial fiction. There are rules for commercial fiction and I believe one is to always pitch to the level of your reader. These pitches also include practices such as approximately 85K word length, easy reading prose, and staying with popular genre themes, plot driven novels such as thrillers.  I was bombed badly in the competition although my novel will be published by a conventional publisher some time this year. Hurray!  I do agree that writing fiction that is character based and which involves literary themes requires a bit of insanity.  Call it a functional neurosis.  It's needed for art and to survive all the rejection and ill informed criticism.  One example is the elevation of rhetorical rules above all else. Thanks!

Charles & Temple,  I really appreciate your comments. I think both are absolutely true.  Charles's comment goes toward what a lot of Literary Agents call platform, an Ivy League education is valuable platform.  Temple's goes toward understanding a literary agent's job, to determine what is marketable then to sell it. My personal experience at the Pentagon is that "No" is the easy answer because it has the least immediate risk. It becomes even easier when made from a position of authority. As to the the beginnings of a novel, they are absolutely critical because they must set in motion what is to follow and, from a market viewpoint, prompt a reader to buy a book.

BTW Temple, I do enjoy your "Piss and Vinegar" bluntness.  But then, I'm highly fallible and terribly contentious.

9

(12 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Thank all of you.  I appreciate your willingness to offer an opinion.

10

(12 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Thank you.

11

(12 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

I am not posting this with the intent of gaining support for my own ideas. My intent is to provoke a discussion that may be of benefit to aspiring fiction writers myself included.  Style manuals range from the elementary (Strunk) to the comprehensive such as "The Chicago Manual of Style" and "the U.S. Government Printing Office Style Manual." These manuals clearly apply to expository writing, theme papers, master's thesis, technical manuals.  How rigidly to they apply to narrative writing such as fiction?  The most common forms of narration in fiction are third person and first person. Do the rules of rhetoric apply equally to both?  Is realism ever adequate grounds for ignoring a rule?  -30-

I felt the New Yorker writer was really trying to be cute, witty. I don't think the quote defines anything well although there is a grain of truth there.  Your rip off definition works as well as any I've seen. What draws me to literary fiction is that it affords a writer the opportunity to seek a change in the reader's perspective on an issue.  I also think literary fiction carries with it the obligation to be very well written. That quality is enough to constitute entertainment for some readers.  One of my favorite novels is John Updike's "In the Lilies of the Valley." I doubt, however, that it would ever have been published had Updike not written "The Witches of Eastwick." Shakespeare is marvelously literary.  At the same time, he had to fill the seats of the theaters in which his plays were performed with paying customers. There's a lesson there for all writers.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I own one text about literary theory, only one. It may surprise you that I do understand your comment.  I do believe that good fiction should inform and entertain. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Do I have a choice?
I would love to develop a readership for my novels. I have a protagonist who struggles with his acceptance of God. I have another who struggles to overcome the devastation of rape.  Another who simply seeks respect.  I also have my Falstaff. I will never develop a readership if I cannot sell.  Thus, I hope I entertain as well as inform.  Markets are what they are.

This may have come from the New Yorker Magazine discussing the difference between literary fiction and genre fiction, "One is good for you, the other makes you feel good."  My two cents worth is these need not be mutually exclusive of each other.

15

(11 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Charles, I am delighted with your disagreement with me because it opens the door to a fuller discussion. There's something magic involved with plays, movies, and novels.  The real "stage" is the imagination of the viewer, the reader, the guy in the middle seat with a bag of popcorn and a Pepsi.  The playwright is challenged by the physical limitations of the theater.  The movies add movement and fluidity.  In one respect the novel has no limitations but in reality it does. All a novel is is a collection of two dimensional symbols representing words on paper or on a Kindle screen.  The magic is the suspension of disbelief on the part of a member of the audience, his accepting that which is unfolding as real in his imagination. How this relates to chapter length is that anything that draws a reader out of this magical realm destroys the magic. 

Classical literature has enjoyed an evolutionary process.  It is full of trial and error (admittedly the error seldom sees print). A writer should feel free to experiment with chapter length, with syntax, with even POV.  What a writer must always be willing to accept is failure - you tried it and it flopped. You learn.
The metric, the telling dial and needle of failure is the reader's withdrawal from the imaginary world you attempt to create. 

I see words, sentences, paragraphs, scenes, chapters, acts, novels, plays as boxcars, tank cars, gondola cars etc. being pulled by a magnificent Northern type steam locomotive across the Rockies and and Great Plains.  When it all works, you see the drivers churning, you smell the smoke, and the wonderful sound of the four chime whistle lifts your imagination beyond the comfort of your cranium and into space itself.

To the person who posed the question I say, "Experiment!"  But be prepared to accept more failure than success.  TNBW is a good laboratory for experimentation.  As a boy I learned this bit of doggerel, "I cannot blow the whistle, I cannot ring the bell, but when the train jumps the track, I always catch the hell."

16

(11 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

As Temple Wang points out, the scene is how you build a chapter.  I associate scenes with a theatrical play.  There is a standard formula to them.  They have beginnings and ends.  They take place in one physical location (setting).  A transformative event occurs in each scene.  Scenes represent a progression along a character arc as well as movement along a plot and act(three act or five act) structure.  My limited experience has shown me that the length of a chapter has a significant impact on pace.  That experience also indicates that editors prefer consistent chapter lengths.  If chapter length poses a risk to reader interest or fatigue, it's wrong.

17

(9 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Presently am revising a chapter in "Redemption" based on our discussion here.  In this chapter I'll introduce Ann, the shipbuilder's daughter.  She's very forward as well as being quite young.  I am presented with a problem, it takes nearly a year to construct a vessel such as the Charles W. Morgan at Mystic Seaport. Alva has to do something during this time to avoid idly burning up his savings living ashore (on the beach).  So he ships out.  The details of the ship's construction come from Ann's letters.

Ann also solves a problem. Reaction to the Prologue in "Redemption" has been very negative - Alva's a dirty old man, a voyeur.  He needs a character ARC.
Ann will help show how Alva goes from good, then to bad, and then to being redeemed.  All of this within the novel's theme - the power of love.

18

(9 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

I just received a handle for my adze head today. Need to fit it to the antique head.  I had forgotten Jethro builds wooden boats.  When I was in the Navy, the Chief Petty Officer instructors always tried to teach to all the senses.  An electrical short in wiring has a distinct smell etc.  I try to appeal to the senses also.  Thank you. Your comments are very kind and also very encouraging.

19

(9 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

I am very grateful for your comments.  It may not surprise you that I am a Melville fan since childhood.  In the draft chapter I'm working on, Alva has finally saved enough resources to buy his own ship.  He goes to see a Quaker shipbuilder to purchase his vessel.  There he meets the shipbuilder's daughter.  Since she too is Quaker, she has more equality than other contemporary women. She does "women's" work and also the work of skilled male craftsman.  I have her propose marriage to Alva.  I'm thinking now of portraying the ship's construction from her POV. 
The ship is a symbol of the character and culture of New England Quakers.  Something built to do a job, to sail to the far regions of the world, to stand in harms way, and to return men home safely for decade after decade.  The nature of the description of this vessel will emphasize the quality of her construction and the great skill of her builders.  She, the Providence, is a symbol and is readily seen as loved almost as a person.

Your original comments have me thinking.  My writing will not please everyone.  This is really very liberating. I can experiment with technique and should. Melville did this.  Moby Dick ruined him financially, but later generations discovered it as a masterpiece of literature. I'm not so vain as to expect that but I am an existentialist.

BTW: Is English a second language? If so I'll think of Joseph Conrad as I read you.

20

(9 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Oh you are so correct!  I doubt few (one to five in TNBW?) even know what a shipbuilder's adze is. The number of protagonists is not the issue - it's how they are portrayed, POV used etc.

I'm thinking the detail used and emphasis should be on the values and culture the ship represents. Temple Wang makes a very good point, my fiction is not everyone's cup of tea!  I think the only way to get there is to experiment and not expect some technique, some exercise of craft, will make it appealing to everyone.

Thanks for your very well considered comments.

21

(9 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

You are correct. One of the many, many rejections I had from literary agents about "Down Easter" stated that I am not afraid to challenge myself or my readers.

While I may not make a fortune, I should feel free to experiment with plot and universal issues.

We discussed painting briefly, your sunrise.  When possible, I like to use word techniques similar in goal to the impressionist painters.  What follows is the reaction of my 16 year old protagonist in "Down Easter" after he climbs to the top of the main mast on his ship for the first time.  He overcomes his fear of heights.

"Priest's mind outpaced his eyes because he saw a sky not simply blue, but blue with tints of pink; he saw clouds floating upward in shades of white, gold, and orange; he saw yellow and white sunlight flecks dancing between the waters swell as it moved in rising crests down river to lap on the shore.  He was exultant; he was alive, as if he had just become immortal.  He was euphoric.  The pounding of his heart from the exhaustion of having climbed 130 feet and the consumption of air by his heavy breathing simply lent rhythm and pitch to his joy."

I hope you enjoyed my little excursion.  I need to read more of your work.  It's no chore at all.

Thanks, Temple

For the most part, my section breaks reflect changes in scenes.  In "Down Easter" I do take a scene and present it from a male POV and then the same scene from a female POV.  I use *** to show the break. I think you need to be simple and consistent with this device.  Let your reader figure out what is going on.  There seems to be a trend in popular fiction to dumb things down to the lowest common denominator. From what I've read of you, this technique would be a disaster. It would destroy the beauty of what you do, description, prose, characterization.  Just my two cents worth.

Becket

23

(9 replies, posted in Literary Fiction)

Would appreciate suggestions/encouragement.  Entered "Down Easter" in a best unpublished novel competition.  The comments coming back were very upsetting - notably I had too many (protagonists) characters to follow.  I've started "Redemption" and am coming face to face with the same issue.  I need to portray the people and things in Alva Christison's life that he loves.  One of them is his first ship, a whaler. named "Providence."  My intent is to show the ship's construction and portray it as a symbol of the values and culture of her builders, members of the Religious Society of Friends in New England.

Looked at writing this from the point of view of the various crafts needed to build a wooden ship, but this does not work. I'm planning on showing "Providence" being built in a process format, laying the keel, fitting the timbers etc.

The ship story will be layered with a more conventional first person narrative about Alva Christison's life.  What happens is the plot line will deviate from a strict chronological order.

I think one of the things that makes me unique is that I present nautical fiction from a hands-on perspective - what its like to helm a square rigger, what it's like to use a shipbuilder's adze.  This is not everybody's fiction, for sure.  As someone who has spent his working life pushing paper, I know the satisfaction of woodworking as a hobby and wish to share and encourage this.  It's so gratifying to finish something of beauty.

Am I shoveling sand against the tide?

Becket