Sol and Community, Points Suggestions (Page 1 of 3)

Further to Apricots' point about reviewers dropping off, this is a chronic problem, and we just lost another paying member (one of my long-term reviewers) because he wasn't receiving enough reviews on his later chapters, as well as often receiving only minimal (5) comments sufficient for the reviewers to earn points. Two potential fixes would be to increase the number of points earned for reviews of later chapters in a story and to increase points based on the number of comments actually left. In the case of regular reviews, the number of points could be increased based on word count in the review. I've noted before that I think reviewers who give more detailed (and time consuming) reviews ought to earn more points. Admittedly, I sometimes struggle to find many things to comment on in chapters written by the better writers on this site, so I'd be willing to settle for fewer points for those reviews. Although it's possible to game the system for more points (e.g., paste War & Peace into a regular review), maximum points can be limited, and abusers can be blocked.

Apricots, my next comment might seem trivial, but could you consider using numbers instead of dots? It's easier to refer to. If not, don't worry about it. I like this subject but will reply later.
George FLC

I second Apricot's thoughts.  The solutions may not be easy or perfect, but improvements will help.  Jack's issue with the point ratios may be sound, too.

With regard to keeping reviewers, maybe a minor boost for those who have reviewed most of an author's chapters?  Maybe 15 to twenty percent?

Ah, but there we have a difficulty. For example, I rarely leave more than 10 comments on a chapter, but I often spend days re-reading, reading past and future chapters, other reviews, try to get an understanding outside my own why a particular passage works or doesn't.

omg that caused Sol so much grief having to separate us while the fur was flying

Jack: Final book reviews could be gamed, but not much more than the point/review system itself can be. It would actually take a lot more effort to benefit from the game of an end-of-book review. You'd have to do minimal regular reviews on every single chapter of the book (which is in itself gaming the system) before reaching the slightly higher payout of the end of book game payout. And even so, I would expect that such a person would be obvious to the person they're reviewing (by way of their reviews not reflecting that they've read) and then the person could be reported and banned, making all their gaming efforts worthless.

As to gaming through increased commentary, that also seems like it would be a low payout-to-effort game that would be clear to spot and ban. Even people who are exceptionally wordy like myself will have a hard time coming up with a plethora of things to say unless they actually read, and in that case, the things they come up with to say will likely still be relevant and useful to an extent. I would think that word count + # of comments would be helpful. At most I would expect to see people typing out "that is" instead of "that's."

But I totally agree that the ratio for review/posting is a bit off. The amount of points I started with wasn't half as much as required to post one chapter. And I had no idea how to review properly to get the points to do so. Looking at the reviews of others was more intimidating than instructive, as I didn't feel I could contribute in the ways that they did.

The front page wall also made it seem like it was okay to start people's books halfway through (and when you think your only contribution is proofreading for typos/spelling, it doesn't occur to you why this might be frowned upon). I generally spent a lot of time the first month here lost, confused and points-broke. I was reviewing people's stuff from years ago that they aren't working on anymore, random chapters in books and generally had no idea what I was doing.

K: I totally feel that con to the suggestion. I have put more work into some of my tiniest reviews than I've put into the larger ones that are mostly typos. But I'm not really thinking less points for smaller reviews, just more points for larger reviews, and perhaps only minimally. Example: if you get 1 point for the review now regardless. With changes you would get 1 point + .25 points for every 5 comments and .25 points for every 50 words over the initial 50 up to 2 total points.

If a reviewer abuses this by rambling, they can only ramble up to 2 points, and we can chastise them lightly, then ban them if they continue in their subsequent reviews. I think on average it would encourage people to do more.

Secondary Thought:
The no-points posting section gives new users a skewed expectation. Those boards are not even active. I feel like they could be deleted to sort of hedge the community in closer and be rid of the ghostly empty portions of the site. We're working in a very large mansion and we can't fill those rooms—nor do I think any of us really want to fill them. We like the points system (even if it can be improved). But as a new member, when I went about exploring, seeing all the empty rooms wasn't too encouraging.

To add to the mix, I'd like to provide an example of how a different review-point system handled things. Maybe some ideas could be borrowed from it. When I was on a different writing site prior to TNBW, they used an interesting review point system, or at least I thought so. Here's how it worked, though it was so long ago my memory is likely rusty.

You could peruse through a list of members who were open to reviews (via your profile, you could toggle between not available and available) and see a minimum number of points you had to spend to "hire" the particular reviewer you set your eyes on. Once the reviewer agreed to your request for a review, the system would auto-deduct your points and hold them in a sort of escrow until the review was completed. At that time, the system would then forward the points to the reviewer. However, if the reviewer did not complete the review on their end within a designated three-day window, your points were all returned, and the agreement was canceled.

Well, you can see where this is going with that system. Reviewers were rated by the writers who hired them, and a ranking list would be created from that. Needless to say, you knew your points were going to be seriously drained to hire the ones at the top of that ranking list (art imitating life), and it wasn't rare to find published authors or freelance editors in those high-demand spots. And if your reviews were of poor quality, as indicated by the aggregate weight of the feedback, it would come as no surprise that writers would often shop elsewhere for a review.

I do feel both Apricots and Vern are correct in what they say. The TNBW point system currently rewards reviewers all the same regardless of the quality of the review and does nothing to encourage long-term reviewing (such as increasing review points at different chapter intervals for the same reviewer). Vern's conclusion could be argued this way (If I understood it correctly) — If you provided acceptable reviews to others who in turn return satisfactory reviews back to you, then the points are irrelevant. The outcome of netting good reviewers in a reciprocal arrangement would happen even without the points. So that begs the question: If the greatest value to be had is gaining long-term reciprocal review relationships, then do points even matter when all the parties involved have no need of them? This, of course, isn't a one-size-fits-all because those writing poetry, short stories, and anything that doesn't have a long continuance are affected differently.

I suggested once that for every review a post received, the writer got back one-tenth of the cost to post. So if a post earned ten reviews, the writer earned back the credits it cost them to post. Any review after that tenth was gravy!

Would this carry through to the end of books? Who knows. As others have mentioned, a lot of my stories see an abundance of early reviews, then the number peters off to three or four regulars, whom I cherish. And maybe it would have to be reciprocal reviews--in-line for in-line or regular for regular, perhaps. But it would forge reviewing relationships, I think; might even shorten the time between posts, which encourages continued reviews. And end-of-the-book extra credit would also be an interesting piece of reward bait. It's nice to actually review the end chapter of a book's first or second draft posted here, to see how the entirety comes full circle.

Due to my current WIP coming to a close (proofing Mother of Draglins one last time before trying my luck in the trad world) my reviews are on hold. When I get back into a routine, I usually get five out a night. I have a number of regulars who I read, and who read me back. The system as it is works okay enough with the effort (and some have mentioned some in-lines do take some effort). But as several have mentioned, the "earning the credits to post" system might be skewed just a tad. Perhaps returning some of those credits through number of reviews is a way to go. Lord knows some of my posts are kind of...expensive. Those offer yummy credits for reviewers, even a fifty-word regular. If I got back just a teeny bit of what those cost to post, I'd for sure be throwing more material out.

We seem to have this type of discussion every now and then.

Go Patriots!

Seabrass: I like the idea of making some points back. I too have lengthy chapters (less so now than when I started) and range between 7 and 14 points to post. My book has 50 chapters (when including the logues), I've done 330 reviews, 285 in-line, and still have 3 chapters left to post. So my book will have cost around 360 reviews to post. But the pressure to review quickly to post quickly so that reviewers can stay engaged with the story is another big issue. Now that I'm all caught up with my main reviewer's WIPs it's not a big thing, but as a new reviewer, it was like a race and trying to read multiple books at the same time that fast was overwhelming. My brain tends to go into protest when I've got too many things going on.

Jube: I can imagine with that many members it would be a good market for that kind of system. And now that you mention it, I should probably make my profile more about what I can offer as a reviewer.

Good idea njc. I'm new at books. Why wouldn't you read them in order? Unless there are version numbers on chapters to deal with.
George FLC

You don't really need to look for sequences. The site could simply count how many reviews a member has left against the same book and award points according to a multiplier (e.g., x1 for 5 reviews or less, then up by perhaps 0.2 for the next 5, etc.). By the time you get to 25 chapters, the multiplier is 2. Perhaps a max multiplier of 3 for those who go to 50 chapters and beyond.

I joined the site in April of 2019. As of this writing, I'm sitting on an 888.78 point war chest. Points are pretty irrelevant to me at this point but I try to suck them up when I do a review just because I'm a greedy heifer and always want more. But I don't do reviews for points.

When I first joined the site, I posted a chapter and got my ass handed to me pretty quick. If the highlighting were red instead of blue, my chapter would have looked like a mass murder crime scene. I resisted the urge to tuck tail and run, instead I dove into doing reviews. Most of them were probably not terribly helpful because I had no idea what I was doing. I could correct spelling and grammar issues all day long because I was a teacher in my pre-retirement days. But things like characterization, POV, protagonists, antagonists, foreshadowing, etc, made as much sense to me as Klingon opera. I read the reviews that other people left and I learned a lot that way. Then I started reading and reviewing voraciously. There was one poster back then that had a series of 11 volumes that was over 650,000 words. I read and reviewed every one of them. (That reader never finished my first posted book of 88,000 words.) I built up a hefty cushion of points while learning what was expected in a review and practicing my own reviewing. I posted chapters of my own work but spent more time reading others during the first couple of months.

Why am I telling you all of this? Because it illustrates how someone can get to a place where points are irrelevant. Which makes gaming the system or not pretty much moot.

I do reviews because I enjoy reading the work of others. I have some regulars that I follow pretty closely. I recently had a "dry spell" because real life got in the way, but that happens to all of us at times. (I expect there to be more "dry spells" from all of us during the coming holiday season.) I try to hit new posters as much as I can, as time permits. Some reciprocate, some don't. If they do, great! If they don't, such is life.

It would be nice if my postings got more reviews, especially in the later chapters. The volume of reviews tends to peter out around the 8 to 10 chapter mark. People lose interest, real life intervenes, I don't get to their work as quickly as they like so they drop mine, they don't like the review I gave so they don't reciprocate....there are a plethora of reasons why reviews don't get done. For people like me, no amount of bonus points or badges or stars or whatever is going to get me to do more reviews. I do as many as time permits. I do as many as my brain can deal with before taking a break. I write freelance for a living. Sometimes my fingers are just sick of pounding a keyboard. And I still have my own writing that I desperately want to get done that gets put on the back burner too many times, just like everything else when real-life comes a-knocking.

Whatever system y'all decide on is fine with me. I'll just keep doing what I can do. That's all any of us can do or should expect.

My 7.8 cents, factoring in inflation.....

Bobbie

Your writing is FAR better than any Klingon opera, believe me! 

Bobbie