Satan's Last Stand (the Connor series) - Dirk B. (Page 51 of 52)

>>It's interesting, though, that multiple universes with multiple copies of us appears impossible for Christianity. Either we have one soul per universe, or one soul across all universes. Both of them break Christianity.

One soul per universe doesn't work since when all universes wrap up and end then can some end up in heaven and some in hell?

The one soul across all universes is intriguing. I can almost envision it as that soul deciding which universe to end up in without knowing what the outcome is. That is tricky. But every time we make a decision, we do that. I if decide to cheat on my taxes then I choose a timeline compared to if I don't cheat. Each choice has its own outcome. If you look at each binary decision point/branch of my life's tree, then there is a huge number of possible outcomes. Each has its own universe, or each can impact its universe. So, is it that there are a large number of universes or a universe with millions of dimensions?

I've been mulling ways to eliminate dual timelines. It's a fairly complex issue, with plenty of plot holes no matter which way I slice it.

Rather than another timeline, which requires readers to wrap their minds around my 4th century explanation and ignore the plot holes, what if God gave the Bible prophets a vision of the future that is identical to what they eventually wrote down, yet that version would only come to pass if Satan did not issue the challenge?

In this way, the vision is true/correct, although the prophets, including John, and Satan will all misinterpret it as prophesying what will happen, rather than what could happen. This means the Bible remains inerrant. It is and remains the faithful word of God; it just has to be interpreted correctly.

While it could be argued that this is close to God lying, he gave all those prophets and Satan sufficient intelligence to question the prophecies, yet none of the prophets thought to consider what will happen when Satan reads Revelation. Even Satan should have questioned God's motives. As a result, Satan issued the challenge rather than suffer an eternity in the lake of fire.

That's exactly what God wants (and being omniscient he knows it will happen), but in addition to intelligence, God also gave those men (and Satan) free will, so the decisions (and the misinterpretations) were theirs to make. Just as God knows when someone will sin, it's still up to that person to make the decision that takes them down the dark path.

Had Satan seen how he was being manipulated and chosen not to issue a challenge, then the future prophesied in the Bible would actually come to pass, which leaves Satan back in the lake of fire. So, you see, technically, the "false" vision could have come true based solely on Satan's free will.

In this way, the Bible remains inerrant and I have no need to introduce an alternate timeline and everything that goes with it.

I wonder how long until this solution falls apart.

there might be parts that God fogs Satan's mind...

Except if God fogs someone's mind such that they end up in the lake of fire, is the punishment still fair?

I tell my doctor his pills make me stupid.

I understand what you're saying, Terry, but the whole premise of the challenge is that things will not end the same way as originally prophesied by John and others. Since I insist that the Bible in my story remain inerrant, the question becomes, what's the best way to explain how that is possible? The alternate timeline is okay, but there is a lot of complexity to the concept if you think about it. The write-up for it is fairly straightforward for those who want to read at most a few paragraphs about how it works and move on.

But many readers these days are very savvy, and I don't want to publish something that is fatally flawed the moment you peek under the hood. If you do focus on it, then you have to think about things like: How many instances of me are there in the multiverse? Are we each distinct individuals, no more alike than twins, or are we connected on a deeper level? If the latter, how many souls are there for me? Is it just one that is somehow shared by all of us? I'd be okay with raising all those issues if that was the focus of the novels, but it's not. And there are many more issues beyond those above.

The other alternative I also considered right from the beginning was to sidestep multiple timelines (2 in this case) and have God give the prophets a vision of the future that is identical to our future. The latter would come true only if there was no challenge, which is the real world we live in. So, the Bible prophesies tell our future.

But the challenge changed that, which is a future God chose not to reveal in full. In part, it's to keep Satan from knowing his future. But mostly it's to prevent a crazy time loop. I'll skip the details for now.

As noted in my earlier posts, God wants Satan to issue the challenge, which is exactly what he eventually does. God's role in steering Satan to that chosen path amounted to having the prophets write the prophesies we see in the Bible, knowing that Satan would read and act on them in an attempt to prevent them from coming to pass. But the prophets and Satan are intelligent and have free will. They should have at least considered what will happen when Satan reads Revelation. The fact that they didn't doesn't change the fact that the outcome still required conscious decisions on their part. God knew what their decisions would be, but they made the choices.

While it's true that Satan really had no choice (lake of fire or mystery prize behind door #2), he made it far worse for himself. As mentioned in the ancient letter (written by Satan), demons and glorified humans have the ability to tolerate the Lake of Fire, although it still involves great suffering, but not so much that the punished beings can no longer contemplate their eternal punishment. After all, what's the point of a punishment if the condemned are in such searing agony that they are nothing more than tortured animals without even the ability to think anymore. Their whole existence would be reduced to one endless thought: agony!

Instead, Satan foolishly upped the ante by suggesting that if Satan won the challenge, God and the angels should return to the spirit realm and abandon Earth forever, leaving it to Satan to rule. God said okay, but if Satan loses, the temperature in the lake of fire will rise a thousandfold (oops). Since the challenge remained Satan's only escape from the lake, he had to accept.

And God has no need to fog Satan's mind.

I could ramble on, but I'm tired.

I'm doing this from memory, which is never a good thing, but for Catholics, the 1000 year period has been underway since shortly after Christ's death, when they developed the concept of the Eucharist. That is, to Catholics, the real presence of Christ on Earth.

It therefore follows that Satan is already in the bottomless pit, locked away. Naturally, that's not a physical pit, nor is there a physical chain around him. Since, figuratively speaking, his power is diminished in this period, what we see in the real world is his remaining influence.

I included the aforementioned chain in the first draft: the Christian cross around De Rosa's neck. It was secured around his neck by St. Michael at a moment when Satan was distracted. It's what causes his painful stigmata every time he kills a clergyman. That's what keeps him from killing more of them. The chain also prevents him from leaving his current (De Rosa) body.

Are you referring to the loop I mentioned earlier but didn't explain? If so, it goes like this:

Assume John always knows and writes about what really will happen in the future. Since the challenge doesn't appear in Revelation, Satan will issue one. But, John should have foreseen that and mentioned it in Revelation, including the fact that Satan loses. Of course, as soon as Satan reads that, he knows not to issue the challenge, at least not that one. But if he doesn't issue it, then John would have written Revelation as we know it. And again, Satan would issue the challenge.

To prevent this loop, God prevents Satan from knowing his final fate. So, Satan would have issued the challenge and spent 2000 years preparing for it (breeding humans to produce superhuman Connor). Even though Satan no longer knows his fate, he has no choice but to proceed since winning is the only way he can escape the lake of fire.

He also no longer knows the fate of the Antichrist, the False Prophet, any of the demons, and all mortal sinners. If he did, that would give him too much information, from which he could probably guess his fate, and the loop would exist yet again.

So, God has to prevent Satan and us from knowing our fates. God is also more than willing to let Satan sweat over his ultimate fate.

Naturally, the fact that there are two possible futures, both equally valid, though only God knows which will come to pass, is really two timelines but without me having to even mention the word or describe the concept.

The only issue is whether Christians/Catholics will view God's actions as "lying" to the prophets. I say no because both timelines are equally valid, and either could come to pass based solely on Satan's decision about the challenge (naturally God knows in advance what Satan will decide, but that doesn't remove Satan's free will).

And God chooses to show the prophets the future that does not result in a causality loop, which also serves God's purpose with regard to the future rescue mission undertaken by Connor/Adam.

I think loops in stories are great, especially unintended ones. But I'm not sure how this story would benefit from placing everything in a loop, other than an opening for sequels. The planned plot is already very complex (Connor carrying Adam's soul, Connor learning that he was bred to follow Satan, Dr. Lombardi is actually Eve in her glorified body, etc.). Also why would God allow that loop when he just took actions, per my previous post, to prevent a different one?

Current plan for book two:
- Apocalyptic events have begun (i.e., natural disasters, etc.)
- Connor is a badass; has twin Goth girlfriends with whom he regularly has sex; has concluded he's on the wrong side of history, but feels compelled to serve his father, even though he's still pissed off that he was conceived through rape
- Connor continues working to convert ever more Protestant churches to follow him; pushes Muslim leaders to convert as well; destroys several of their holy places, including the mosque on the Temple Mount, to force them to accept him; returns control of the Temple Mount to the Jews as a sign that he really is their Messiah
- Connor has begun experiencing symptoms of Adam awakening within him, which he doesn't understand and keeps hidden from Satan; those will get worse and worse
- Satan sends Connor's girlfriends away, so Connor ups the ante and takes a Protestant minister's 16-year-old son as a gay lover
- Bishop Romano is given the journal of a deceased geneticist, who in modern times, was responsible for Satan's ongoing breeding program
- Campagna invites Connor to a meal at her parents' home, where he meets a number of his relatives; he gets upset because everyone is being so nice to the "Antichrist"; he and his grandfather have a heart to heart on the balcony
- Romano arrives and shows Connor the journal, including entries about the gene in Connor that was bred specifically to compel him to do Satan's bidding
- Connor decides he wants out; their first stop is Campagna's regular church, where Romano hears his first real confession; he is baptized; they celebrate Mass; he receives instructions from the Holy Spirit to return to his father in preparation for what's to come
- He does so; finds his lover strangled in St. Peter's Square; confronts Satan; they have a huge supernatural fight in St. Peter's Basilica
- Connor collapses during the fight due to Adam's continued awakening; he's hospitalized; Satan summons Campagna because Connor seems near death and he's hoping she can save him; Connor recovers and returns to Satan
- Cardinal Nnamani continues to implement his holy vision to retake the Vatican "without violence" on the part of his followers; leads them to St. Peter's Square to confront the Unholy Trinity on the steps leading into St. Peter's Basilica
- all hell breaks loose; God uses Campagna to cleanse the Vatican of demons; Satan is severely burned/disfigured during the cleansing and disappears from the Vatican
- Adam awakens fully; the Holy Spirit arrives (same Black man as in book one) and uses his powers so Connor and Adam can meet face-to-face, even though they exist within the same body and share one soul
- More details TBD

- book three is equally busy, including Connor discovering and meeting his supernatural "cousins" from the breeding program, who still live deep in the jungle where they were bred; Apocalyptic disasters continue; the final confrontation between Satan's demons and Connor and his cousins at Megiddo; big-ass fight between Connor and Satan's lieutenant, who is actually many demons (10?) in one powerful genetically enhanced body; Christ returns
- lots more to the story, including the rescue mission, Connor's desire to free everyone from Hell, condemned sinners begin getting sucked into the Lake of Fire in vast numbers, where they "burn" for a time before transporting to other worlds to live/try again to make it to Heaven (this is akin to a loop, by the way)
- Connor/Adam given the chance to jump into the lake of fire and accept God's punishment on behalf of all mortal sinners, something Adam is too terrified to do, but Connor throws himself/Adam in; they burn until all that remains of them is the thought of "pain!"; finally, Connor/Adam are transported back to Megiddo, where Campagna, Romano, and others are waiting; Connor has a glorified body, making him immortal
- Connor and several of the main characters are taken to the top of a mountain by St. Michael, where they meet the Father; not sure if the mountain will be the same as the one where Moses went to receive the ten commandments; Connor and the others are told about the portal, the other worlds for sinners who didn't make it to Heaven this time around; Connor is told his punishment for trying to free all souls from Hell is to rule all of those worlds; Campagna and Romano decide to join him
- Satan eventually gets sucked into the lake of fire; he burns like Connor/Adam did; is transported to a small moon or large asteroid that is falling into the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way
- Although I'm unlikely to live long enough to write any more books in the series (I still want to finish Archangel as a series of novellas), the ending to book three of Connor pretty much sets up an infinite number of potential sequels in which he rules the galaxy

Other than that, not much going on.   Now you probably see why I'd rather not add a loop to this story as well.

Satan rebelled and started the whole conflict. He is already condemned to hell (Matthew 25:41). Fogging his mind doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

I don't know if it's needed but I've also read that Satan cannot read our minds.

>>The other alternative I also considered right from the beginning was to sidestep multiple timelines (2 in this case) and have God give the prophets a vision of the future that is identical to our future. The latter would come true only if there was no challenge, which is the real world we live in. So, the Bible prophesies tell our future.

But the challenge changed that, which is a future God chose not to reveal in full. In part, it's to keep Satan from knowing his future. But mostly it's to prevent a crazy time loop. I'll skip the details for now.
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I don't know if you have any other choice. God anticipated the bet and gave the prophecies, but it did not include everything that would happen. I have a hunch that we will not fully understand some parts in Revelations until after something happens. For example, what are those creatures mentioned in Revelations 9? We'll know after they show up.

Not lying, but an omission of fact

Good comments K. But surely omission CAN be a deception.

Dirk:
If God is omniscient then He should know the outcome. So, He won't bet against Himself. Satan is desperate and will try anything.

If there are gaps in Revelations, then can your story fit into those gaps? The Chosen does stuff like that. Ultimately, Revelations states that God wins. We'll see the details as they unfold.

I'm trying to be somewhat theological... I hope this helps.