Re: The Archangel Syndrome v1/v2

I have an issue with Apollo's use of narcotics for his aggressitic disease. By now, he uses so much, he ought to be experiencing some noticeable side-effects. Common side effects of narcotics include sedation, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, constipation, physical dependence, tolerance, and respiratory depression. I think slurred speech is another. Apollo is both addicted to them and has developed a high tolerance. However, if he starts showing these effects, his use of narcotics could be discovered. Nero would definitely want to know what's going on.

My inclination is to say up front that they're 41st century narcotics with few noticeable side effects except tolerance and addiction. A little overly convenient, story-wise, but I need him highly functional, so he can fight the samurai and Caligula in early chapters and can think clearly as is often required of him by the story.

Thoughts?
Dirk

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There's prescription medication that can dull the side-effects. Disadvantage, the body quickly builds resistance to it (eg it can stop working when it needs to).

Re: The Archangel Syndrome v1/v2

I'm thinking I could potentially make insomnia one of the side effects of 41st century narcotics, although it would be a pain to retrofit any effects into the whole first act at this point. And those effects wouldn't really change the outcome of major events that occur in act one.

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Long-term personality changes.  Impaired memory, maybe including slowly developing amnesia.  Memories, skills, personality elements that are attached to whatever drug was being taken at the time--and there might be a dozen variant classes of the drugs.

Re: The Archangel Syndrome v1/v2

I almost forgot. The drug stops working around the time Apollo becomes emperor. So, he's addicted and has to come off the drug in order for its effectiveness to return. The advantage of this is that I don't need to retrofit it into act one. In act one, he's become addicted and the drug barely still works.
All I need to add to act one is mention early on that it's addictive, that one eventually builds a tolerance to it, plus some weird side effect(s) that come with taking very high doses.

Rather than "standard" side effects like some of those listed by njc, (silly) personality changes may work. This would be a good chance for added nonsense in the story. I'll have to think about what those personality changes will be and slowly integrate them into act two. With full-blown nonsense by act three. It will be a busy act with regard to Apollo's health, so I may need to scale it back so that it doesn't dominate his scenes (his arm shaking already requires frequent mention).

Thank ye, gents.
Dirk

331 (edited by George FLC 2023-05-24 14:37:52)

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I might be wrong but if the science and technology is advanced enough to fight super-duper battles and build space craft and hovering AI servants, etc. then they should be able to have a slew of new focused non-addictive type drugs that run rings around our current narcotics, etc. It's not just overly convenient but almost required.  And in the future perhaps you can marry drugs to electrical implants that affect just that part of the brain that needs adjusting. I have no problems with hyper advanced pharmaceuticals. I EXPECT hyper advanced AI developed with fuzzy logic Phamaceuticals.

And since it's a space opera perhaps you can have silly personality traits as side effects. How about laughing or belching in weird circumstances?

George FLC

Re: The Archangel Syndrome v1/v2

I like laughing. Marilyn has a character who giggles at all the wrong times. It's very effective.

As for what we'll have in two thousand years, keep in mind that there's no good way to test psychiatric drugs on animals, and there's limited ability to dig into a human brain to figure out how it works.

Re: The Archangel Syndrome v1/v2

After fighting with the latest version of this story, I've decided it needs a major rewrite, which I'm not interested in attempting at this time. As a result, it's once again shelved. I have another story I want to write set in the same universe but in the year 7329 CE. It was originally intended as book three of Galaxy Tales/Archangel Syndrome, but it works as a standalone story. If I do it right, the original story, set in 4017 CE, might work as a prequel, but not in its current form.

My thanks to everyone for your help in trying to whip the latest draft into shape.
Dirk

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No value in writing to the end of this draft? What are the current pain-points?

335 (edited by Dirk B. 2023-05-28 10:46:25)

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Pain points:
- still too violent for a Christian audience, and there's no easy way around that
- probably still too irreverent for a Christian audience (e.g., Joseph just spent a chapter rewriting the Ten Commandments)
- Christian elements are unlikely to appeal to non-Christians
- first act is way too long (roughly 40% of the story)
- all of the above makes me think I won't find a publisher/audience for this

- also, I think the angels need to be visible to the boys (no more "radiating"), which is a sizeable change
- Queen Aussie isn't sufficiently useful after the opening battle and needs to be ripped out
- I'm still not happy with star portals for various reasons; most notably, the write-up is too complex/long

I hope to reuse some of the better material in the future, either in the book set in 7329 or in a major rewrite of the current story.

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- still too violent for a Christian audience, and there's no easy way around that
>If you have to get out the walkie-talkies, so be it.

- probably still too irreverent for a Christian audience (e.g., Joseph just spent a chapter rewriting the Ten Commandments)
> I'll need to check out a competitor book to be able to comment. Still, the book you want to write vs the book you want to sell appear to be at odds.

- Christian elements are unlikely to appeal to non-Christians
> Should non-Christians be part of your target market? For example, is it possible to write a story about socialism that will appeal to both Democrats and Conservatives? (btw VQx are socialist stories, so I'm speaking from experience)

- first act is way too long (roughly 40% of the story)
> This makes me think the remaining acts should each be longer. Or the divisions need to be revisited. It seems you're tackling the latter.

- also, I think the angels need to be visible to the boys (no more "radiating"), which is a sizeable change
>What does visibility grant?

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Dirk B. wrote:

Pain points:
- Christian elements are unlikely to appeal to non-Christians

Gee, The Exorcist sold.

Re: The Archangel Syndrome v1/v2

A potential fix for the worst of the violence may come with the trimming of act one. The cadet massacre can go, and perhaps the haven riots.

Yeah, the book I want to write is not currently the same as the book that I might be able to sell. Basically, I wrote a book that I originally thought might appeal to non-Christians, which I no longer believe it's the case. So, I'm now trying to make it a book that appeals to Christians and lapsed Christians. That's a drastic shift, which is why my farting around the edges of the story won't work. That's the kind of change that requires a substantial rewrite.

Regarding the length of act one, most of it is intended to build to Apollo and Joseph accepting their destinies. Mainly, ever greater violence drove both of them to act. If I can get them to commit earlier without all that escalating violence, that would address it, or I simply need to trim the early chapters to get them down in size. The book is rather long. There are about 45 chapters (same as Connor), but most off the chapters are two to three times the length of Connor chapters.

I want to show the angels because, to the best of my knowledge, angels appearing to humans are always visible. Using an invisible entity made sense when it was God as the entity since God does at times communicate with humans without showing himself.

Re: The Archangel Syndrome v1/v2

njc wrote:
Dirk B. wrote:

Pain points:
- Christian elements are unlikely to appeal to non-Christians

Gee, The Exorcist sold.

I think the problem with trying to sell this book to non-Christians is that some of the chapters are very Christian. The Exorcist had religious elements, but they didn't dominate whole parts of the story. While I'm sure some non-Christians would be willing to read a heavily religious book, I think the majority won't.

Really what it comes down to is that I finally realized the shift in target audience can't be accomplished just by farting around the edges. I need to plan what the revised story will look like without trying to save all of the existing chapters. I may have to toss quite a few of the early chapters. Those are bigger changes than I wanted for the latest draft, so it didn't make sense to continue writing that draft. Eventually, I'll come back and try a more substantial rewrite, I just don't want to tackle it now. The new story I have in mind is far less complex, and it allows me to create something new.

340 (edited by Dirk B. 2023-06-01 05:05:01)

Re: The Archangel Syndrome v1/v2

Quandary.

I have two kisses between Joseph and Christian in this story. Technically, the first is Andrew, while in control of Joseph's body, kissing Christian. I don't really describe that kiss in ordinary terms. Instead, Joseph simply thinks to himself about what's happening as the guy not in charge of his own body. He makes comments like "wow, Andrew's really going to town on this" and "I wonder how long I should let this go on". Shortly thereafter, he notices that Christian's about to put his tongue in Joseph's mouth, at which point Joseph freaks out, reasserts control, and lurches back. It's a forgone conclusion that some (many?) Christians readers would be turned off by this, but since Joseph is (spoiler!) gay and needs to eventually come to terms with that, the kisses are important to his character arc and him coming out to himself.

This is one of these story elements that makes me wonder if this somewhat Christian story can ever really find an audience. I've solved the issue with the book's swearing, and I may be able to further reduce the violence, but I'm not interested in changing Joseph's sexual orientation. His conservative Christian upbringing is at severe odds with his sexual orientation, and I think his struggle with that is a great thing to explore. It also drives key parts of the story. Most notably, since Joseph is so afraid of being gay that he's downright homophobic, he allows Andrew to die, and Andrew becomes one of the main ghosts in Joseph's head for the rest of the story.

This rather major issue makes me think I should dial down the Christianity in parts of this book and target a more secular reader who, hopefully, isn't turned off by a story that has at least some Christian elements. That could include casual Christians.

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Side-stepping the dilemna for a moment, can you list a book or two that your target market is reading?

For example, for my angels book, my target market is reading The Guildhunters Series. Subset of this rather large mob is readers who are sick of cookie-cutter main character relationships. So, what is my market willing to bear? Well goodreads does all the heavy lifting. (Turns out they want not everyone to be gorgeous and brilliant and brave. You can informally tell the violence point that makes them go ick. You can browse their read-lists and see what else they like. etc etc)

Back to yours. Is your target audience reading Spaceballs? If so, all the serious stuff gotta go. Are they reading Dune? If so they might enjoy abstracted religion (Thou shalt not build machine in the likes of man).

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Special note: I don't refer to inspirational books. They could be wildly different from your own as long as they appeal to your future readers.

For example my main series targets people who like Princess Bride (among others) even though it shares more in common with Starship Troopers.  It's been compared to both which is high praise but more importantly validation my target mallet approves. Laurie's more James Bond on the Millenium Falcon group.

343 (edited by Dirk B. 2023-06-01 22:54:21)

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I wrote the story without regard to target audience. Bad idea. Now I'm trying to figure out if there is such an audience. I like the sci-fi elements, I like the humor, I like the Christian and Roman Empire elements, I like the gay subplot, and I like the story and characters. Whether a publisher will remains to be seen. Obviously, I can't target the whole spectrum of readers from secular/hates religious stories to conservative Christians who don't want to read about homosexuals. Given the relatively prominent role of homosexuality in the story, I think it's easier to adjust the story for secular readers who don't mind some religion than it is for serious Christians.

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Is there a target audience?  Probably.  Read Kate Paulk's ConVent and ConSensual.

345 (edited by George FLC 2023-06-02 13:38:40)

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Dirk B. wrote:

His conservative Christian upbringing is at severe odds with his sexual orientation, and I think his struggle with that is a great thing to explore. It also drives key parts of the story.

You start with Joseph being straight (had a girlfriend), then bisexual, and he's wondering about that and if he is all the way gay. It's how it ends that will really impact your Christian audience. Are you 'simply' digging into an issue that is tough but readable? Then that's fine. If you finish with 'homosexuality is great, and the Church sucks,' you will lose a chunk of your Christian audience. The other extreme way to end it is to say, 'homos are all going to hell.' It's not true, and you'll also lose a chunk of your readership. If you end with a level of uncertainty of what's right and wrong, then I'm not sure who you will lose.

You handled homosexuality really well in Connor. Can you do a repeat performance?

346 (edited by Dirk B. 2023-06-02 18:28:10)

Re: The Archangel Syndrome v1/v2

Joseph was never straight or bi. He had a girlfriend, but so do some gays until they figure out/accept their actual sexual orientation. The story never judges the church on this issue, but Joseph will eventually realize there is nothing wrong with being homosexual. I'm unsure how much time I'll spend on him coming to that conclusion. The previous draft left Joseph's orientation ambiguous, although that won't be the case in any rewrite. Regardless, there will be the two kisses mentioned in my earlier post. There's no way to explore Joseph's evolving thinking on that matter without them. If that costs me readers, so be it.

I didn't actually explore Romano's orientation in Connor. He's gay, but since he's a priest, I didn't go there.

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I wrote the story without regard to target audience.

Indeed. To do otherwise is to become formula.

Now I'm trying to figure out if there is such an audience.

It has become your job to find it. And, as njc mentions, it probably exists. But the order of the genres is huge. You quoted sci-fi, humour, religion/history as the overarching items (3 desired hits).

"sci-fi > humour" vs "humour > sci-fi" is already a huge difference, not counting the other. I daresay you've picked the former (sci-fi > humour), otherwise Nero's raid on Bethlehem would have been routed by two five-yr-olds and a robotic penguin.

Your list : sci-fi > humour > religion > history/Antiquities

I read : sci-fi > religion > humour (except in In Apollo's big scene (where he throws the dagger) where I read humour > thriller > sci-fi).

I'm not making any suggestions in this post, just kinda raw thoughts on how the story struck me

348 (edited by Dirk B. 2023-06-02 21:26:01)

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It would have been better if I'd thought more about the target audience before writing the whole story. Now I have to try to rewrite key parts of the story based on target audience, assuming I can figure out where they lie on the spectrum noted in an earlier post. Target audience determines which of certain chapters stay vs go. Sci-fi and humorous won't change. Just the balance between secular and religious needs adjusting. I believe there's more of an audience near one end of the spectrum or the other; less so in the middle. Naturally, I'm not going to go out of my way to piss people off, but religion and homosexuality don't mix well.

I read : sci-fi > religion > humour (except in In Apollo's big scene (where he throws the dagger) where I read humour > thriller > sci-fi).

Interesting. You didn't think the Roman Empire elements stood out? I would put humor after history/Antiquities.

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Roman Empire stood out, but when I limit myself to 3 terms, the choices get difficult.

350 (edited by Dirk B. 2023-06-07 01:09:05)

Re: The Archangel Syndrome v1/v2

It's amazing how much you can get rid of when you're willing to yank whole subplots and characters from a book. I managed to whack three full chapters from act one, which I think makes it a much more reasonable length for the opening. Demona is gone too. I never found much use for her, anyway.