Hi Winestone--

Your post is a good idea.  I happened to have learned a few things from your review that is being discussed.  When I know a reviewer is good, and you seem to be very good, I try to read all their reviews because I find them so helpful in my own writing.   

Isn't Tirzah a great writer?

Pearl

I am one of those who wants hard hitting criticism. If I just wanted praise, I would only ask my friends and family to read my stories.

That's why I'm here.

Ann

I want to say something, but I'm turning purple.

LOL!

Ignore me if you don't understand the joke. I just felt compelled. Sorry.

I'm just walking around aimlessly, muttering to myself for a few minutes.

Rian

arianna cordelle sofer wrote:

BTW...


Anybody got a few gallons of hand sanitizer. I think a metaphorical unicycle is about dive into a poopcan.

Believe it or not, my brother in law has a 50 gallon barrel of sanitizer.

Tirz

Winestone -- A hard review is a good review. A tough writer can take it.

corra wrote:

Winestone -- A hard review is a good review. A tough writer can take it.

That is the attitude required to succeed.

We all hear things we don't want to. Sometimes it is harsher than we can handle and we need to blow off that steam.

But the real question is, does criticism make you want to try harder; strive to improve? Or does it make you 'want to give up forever' as was the reaction yesterday.

Firstly I need to apologize to that writer. Believe me, It was never my intention to make you consider 'giving up'.  (And I hope you didn't just say that, calculated to make me feel bad in return for the review).

Please believe me when I tell you that all successful writers are tough, as corra states. Success demands toughness in this business and the soft and sensitive writers(including some superb writers who are bristling with talent) simply fall away and never reach their potential
I have seen this first hand for nearly forty years.

But yesterday my review sparked off a spat between a whole load of other people here? I don't want to start an emotive war between the whole site over a review to an individual.


Out of pure interest, and as my parting contribution to this site - here is a harsh review of 'talent' given on a Brit audition show. It is worth watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKjMTlSZAMM

Are the reviewing panel right to say what they said? Or is the singer correct to be outraged at the comments?

Somebody has been telling the guy he is 'sooooo good', and look at what it has done to him.

Don't be this guy!

Last edited by winestone (09-23-2008 07:41:24)

winestone wrote:

corra wrote:

Winestone -- A hard review is a good review. A tough writer can take it.

That is the attitude required to succeed.

We all hear things we don't want to. Sometimes it is harsher than we can handle and we need to blow off that steam.

But the real question is, does criticism make you want to try harder; strive to improve? Or does it make you 'want to give up forever' as was the reaction yesterday.

Firstly I need to apologize to that writer. Believe me, It was never my intention to make you consider 'giving up'.  (And I hope you didn't just say that, calculated to make me feel bad in return for the review).

Please believe me when I tell you that all successful writers are tough, as corra states. Success demands toughness in this business and the soft and sensitive writers(including some superb writers who are bristling with talent) simply fall away and never reach their potential
I have seen this first hand for nearly forty years.

But yesterday my review sparked off a spat between a whole load of other people here? I don't want to start an emotive war between the whole site over a review to an individual.

I hope that you do decide to stay.

Good reviewers are needed.

The spat already existed before you ever typed a word. 

Sorry about that!

You got caught in a larger tornado that had nothing to do with you.

I hope you stay.

If not, I wish you all the luck with your writing.
Tirz

corra wrote:

winestone wrote:

Out of pure interest, and as my parting contribution to this site - here is a harsh review of 'talent' given on a Brit audition show. It is worth watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKjMTlSZAMM

Are the reviewing panel right to say what they said? Or is the singer correct to be outraged at the comments?

Somebody has been telling the guy he is 'sooooo good', and look at what it has done to him.

Don't be this guy!

LOL -- Yikes! That guy was delusional!

I hope you decide to stay, Winestone. We're not all like that.

Winestone.. you do know if you leave because of some criticism that you just nullified you entire argument.  To leave the site is really an over-kill if you truly believe your stand.  The spat or whatever between the two guys will blow over.  If the so mentioned 'spat' had anything to do with me.  It was never a spat.  I do take offense to it being called that.  I became a target very early on.. I decided not to take it or give up and just leave the site.

My argument is still that a review can be honest and yet encouragement offered along with suggestions.  I  have seen entire work rewritten by a reviewer until it no longer was their work.  That was just the thing that stop my writing at the age of fifteen and the message was, "I can not write."  the piece won a place in a national poetry book, but it had been drastically altered. 

Perhaps reviewing is also slanted with the like and dislike of a reviewer.  I don't understand some of the forms of weird poetry call weird name.  It could slant my ratings but I work hard not to do that. 

A little encouragement can make a writer work harder as well as criticism.  It will actually work better with some as I have seen it.  Harsh criticism of mine was strange on a couple of piece as a best selling author read it and loved it as did a professor and they didn't tear them apart.  Just said get an editor as the work was wonderful.  Actually neither pointed out anything wrong with either work.  Writers on this site tore both apart.  Perhaps some personal preference.  A reviewer cannot be totally fair and unhindered by their own ideas of how a work should read etc.  It will always be filter through that no less than a discussion between two individuals.

Yes it is a tough world out there for writer and ninety five to ninety eight won't make it.  Doesn't mean their work is great or that they should quit as it is in the creating where the joy lies.  To destroy the trying is a huge burden I wouldn't want for myself.  Money and knowing someone plays more of a part in getting published than the quality of the writing as we have all read or tried to read some books at BN that were so bad you merely shake your head.

Personal interaction and communication takes skills.  I have had to deal with this in the work force.  Tactfulness take the high - ground  and leaves both parties with ego intact.  False hope is not encouraging but telling someone to just pray and everything will work out.  That is false encouragement. Telling Sanjiha that he is a wonderful singer is false encouragement that fed his ego and he feels he is a great talent when he will be a fifteen minutes of fame guy.  But he did have the guts and probably at least better than a few on this site.

Don't leave the site over someone disagreeing with you as that is rather an ego trip.
Or the victim's role.  I almost fell into the later but decided hell no...no one knows me to make the statement that were made about me, I know they are lies and not true so why would I leave. 

Think it over and give it time like I did.  Many came to my defense and stated I was a good reviewer and that possibly without my encouragement would have quit.  a couple of these works I have all the confidence in the world they will be published someday.

Please stay for a little longer and see how you feel.

Please  and I will use my all time top hated line to urge you, as a single tear is flowing down my face.  crying doesn't work like that  and can a single tear ever really flow?  Ha,

flo

You make some excellent points. I had begun to think that I’d just gotten off on the wrong foot.

But then I saw the ‘I suppose I need a tutor’ thread in the Poetry Forum.

Within all that resentment, apparently, I am an ‘attacker’ and a ‘whine person’ (also a ‘wine person’ which I assume is a pun).

Actually, I do like a drop of Dark Rum, but strictly socially.

Sweeten the medicine sure! It doesn’t mean the illness is less chronic, or that the medicine will be more effective. The medicinal spoon gets bitten by the petulant dog all the same.

I had the sensitivity to apologize and it has been thrown in my face.

The review I gave was not personal. I was talking about the poem and the words alone. Not the Poet.

Rage against the review all you like – for it too, is just words. But to get personal? That is not mature, it is certainly not professional.

How can the review process work if it is personal. One wrong word punctures an over inflated, hypersensitive ego like a pinprick to a birthday balloon.

Apprantly, the problem here is with the reviewer himself, not the review and certainly not the poem.

But good work cannot legitimately receive a bad review because the proof is in the prose. If it is good, then it is good and it will stand up whatever any particular review says about it.

The guy states that he is NOT a poet, then asks ‘Is this poem good enough to insert in a novel? (and presumably be a commercial success). ‘Is it memorable?’

The answer?

A: In this case, No, and in all honesty, I get a better efforts from the majority my 8th Graders.

The ‘No’ is a non-subjective opinion because it is based upon fact.

Advice – essential elements of what usually constitutes reasonable poetry are missing. You state you are not a poet (what do you seriously expect?) so seek one (a poet) as a mentor and lean to compose poetry (like my 8th Graders).

B: Wonderful! A brilliant piece. You are great. You rock….

Sell the poem! Publish!

I retract A: and sustitute B: For the sake of happyness and harmony.

WJV_2025 wrote:

Dude,

What ever. Have your self a tissy. You have developed a broad focused hate, I am the target of that, and that is your choice.

About my last post in the other thread ( I did that at o' dark 30 in the morn so was too sleepy-eyed to have the energy to flip back and recall your actual pen name -- nothing more. If you were offended, then there is nothing I can say to change that, but then you became offended by me, day one, and once people are so mind blocked, they can't overcome the past.

I have, I listened to you, I said sorry so many frackin' times that I am not going to do so any more. Your initial review was mostly negative and had no real offerings of a review no matter how the word was defined.

You came at me even as I was being asailed upon by others and I merely connected the two. It was NOT I who drew blood from you, nor was I, nor did I ever condemn you or your review in any place or time.

Had you introduced yourself prior to reviewing, and made it clear that you were not connected to that crap, then I would not have been so defensive.

If your initial review was not so negative and attacking, then I would not have needed anyone else to clarify.

So, you don't like me, don't look at my 'less than 8th grade' work. I would not want to offend them by suggesting that you could be a little more polite on the review process, as I have done you. You are NOT a publisher, nor are you being paid for a 'professional' review. You toughness is great, and others more familiar with that part of the publishing world might be used to it, but you should not expect awards from those who have never seen anything like that before, ever.

So the real solution is simple. Don't review my stuff and drop the whole thing -- I will.

You don't like my work, don't read it. You don't like what I say, don't listen. I will not continue to tell you that I did apreciate you review, once I saw more explanation on the critique than the 1/3 review 2/3 negative statements that had no place in any review like that.

I will delete this post in 48 hours and not participate in any more of these things.

-- Good day to you Sir/Ma'am, as the case may be.

Did you just give me a "What'ever" - from the video in the link above?

Okay, this is the 'Dude' and yes you can call me Sir rather than Ma'am.

Given the above, I'm seriously doubting you will understand this.... to perfecty be honest, I am having trouble understanding you. Your first line is extremely confusing and quite worrying.

But after reading around the site, I think I understand this place a little better.

When reviewing an article, the following dialogue box is presented;

“Please be honest and fair in providing your rating. Use the descriptions to guide your decision.�

* A worthy start but needs significant work.
** Shows Promise.
***Above Average.
**** Very Good.
*****Excellent.  I really enjoyed it and I won't forget it for awhile.

To be honest there is no ‘sucky’ score offered. I would assume that ‘** Shows Promise’ is by far the most common score?

With my offending review I chose the button that indicates that it ‘Shows Promise’. -- Is that negative?

I think when asking for a review, you are not actually asking for critique in the literal or traditional sense, i.e. here is an article of work, what do you think of it, as it is on the page? (As listed in the five star option screen – pasted above).

You are actually asking for a hand. A ‘reviewer’ should go beyond commenting what is on the page and give the writer instructional advice upon how to actually write. Teach them new skills – turn the self confessed non-poet author into a poet? Compose his poem for him (or suffer his paranoid and vitriolic anger?) I advised you to find a mentor or tutor and you were angered because I didn’t perform those roles within the critique itself?

                                                             -------------

I think you guys here have it mixed up. I don’t think the definition ‘Review’ here is correct.  I think the author of the poem I reviewed seriously expected an ‘Editor’ service (More than that, he expected tutoring).

He openly declared that he is not a poet, and then slung up a collected jumble of words that appeared to harvested from a thesaurus, and then sat back waiting for someone to show him how to turn it into a poem.

When someone reviewed his words and said ‘Hey, that’s just a collected jumble of words that appeared to harvested from a thesaurus,’ He cried foul and became extremely upset that the reviewer.

If you want an editor or tutor to help you with your article, then ask, somewhere, for that service.

If you want a review of what is on the page, then ask for a review. Don’t get personal and petulant because you don’t get an instant on-line poetry workshop tutor composing your work for you.   

Seriously, you need to clarify what constitutes a review around here. The star list definition/options specify one thing, but the expectations of the author are way out of sync with that.



WJV_2025 you really need to seperate out the personal stuff.

Everyone writes a stinker. Everyone. It is that piece that stinks - not the writer.

You are going to need to seperate yourself from your work - it is 100% personal with you - you need to address that otherwise experiences like this will be commonplace as you continue to write.

I am not a publisher, but I know some and have taught many students who have gone on to be published.

And since you brought it up. I think you should send your work to a publisher for a 'review'. And if they reject you, I have no doubt you would feel that they are picking  on you too.

It is finished. Indeed it is. It has been a real experience!

Wow! And to think I followed a ‘highly recommended link’ to this site from somewhere in the real world.

Last edited by winestone (09-24-2008 12:24:55)

I really think I should bring my big spoon in here.

Have you two men stopped and listened to yourselves. This whole mess has crossed the line past foolish.

Apparently someone needs to tell you this flat out. Go to neutral corners and apply bandages to your pride or whatever it is that you feel took a hit.

I don't think anyone needs to leave the site. It sets a terrible precedent that no member should tolerate under any circumstances!

You are bickering by choice. Have the spine to admit it. Everyone is walking around screaming "Victim!"

Wow, so many victims, not a criminal in sight. Everyone has made thir boundries clear at this point. Meddlers have meddled, peace makers have tried to make peace, and others have tried to provide some ditstraction.

You have been given encouragement, understanding and a fair share of tolerance.

Now quit your tamtrums and sniping and get back to work! Use those keyboards to write and review before another person gets sucked into this foolishness. And don't give me any garbage about "whaaaaa..... someone's gonna attack my whiddle reviews."

I am likely half your size (both you two guys) and apparently with a heart twice as sensitive, because watching this go on makes me sad. You want to see how much someone can take with grace? Bring it. I already dared people in another thread. Make it personal, make it professional. I don't give an ATS RASS. No one is going to make me back down. I did that once, and I got a thread to prove it!

How many people are going to run away before this reign of BS is over? How many more people are going to get stepped on?

Now dig deep to find some fortitude if you must. You don't need to apologize. You don't need to acknowledge the existence of people that put a bug up your kazzoo. But you need to "check it."

Debates and disagreements help us learn, but petty snipes and running away are destructive to the rest of us!

I hope this is a clear enough statement. The gentle approach is apparently worthless.

(if you see typos feel free to point them out)

Rian

Last edited by arianna cordelle sofer (09-24-2008 13:13:30)

nonimou wrote:

Winestone, your suggestion the other day was perfect.  "Move on to a mature site" Several of us have already done this and with great relief and pleasure. I'd like to know the site where you saw tnbw highly recommended so I won't use it. You did the right thing by coming in as a reviewer before joining. It isn't the money, it's the time and effort that one puts in and then realizes this isn't the place for someone who's focused and trying to improve their writing skills. It took me close to 30 minutes to delete more than 50 short stories, poems, and a novel from this site. I could have used my time more productively elsewhere, but that was part of paying the price of impulsively jumping in here. I wish I'd done what you did, reviewed first. If I had and read the work, the reviews and the forums, I never would have wasted my time. My membership is up in December and until then I'll just poke around here and laugh. Too bad, because there are a few, and very few members here who are really trying and have something to offer but not enough to make anyone like me continue. There are others who,  to start with the basics, don't feel it's necessary to be able to spell correctly or do some basic editing before posting. There are members who beg for teachers, one recently claimed she/he didn't know how to write a bio and would someone teach her/him....well, my answer was, google....google to find out how to correctly use a period, quotation marks, or write a bio. There are wonderful website where you can learn about your language, English, and they are  free....  There are no free rides in this profession. You're biting down on rusty nails every step of the way ...

If you are leaving then why do you keep coming back to stir the kettle?

The very issue to claim to be leaving over, is the one you egg on.

I hear you. You don't like it here anymore.

Is it important to you that several other members leave too? Do you need validation or company?

For someone no longer invested in this place, you seen to have enough spare time to spread wisdom among fools.

I'm open for conversion. Shed your light on me via e-mail please however.


Rian