-- This is all just my big dumb opinion --

I'd say to just write a person, not a gender, if you know what I mean.  The differences should arise vastly more from individual character traits and the culture around the person, not the inherent sex of them "making" them be a certain way.

Scientifically, there's not actually a whole lot of difference between men and women in the way we think.  Every time you see a study that shows otherwise, they're always careful (in the study itself, maybe not in the sensational news article) to point out that while the average of a certain trait may be such and such percentage points different, the variance between individuals even within the same sex is almost always huge in comparison.  Your sex may give you a tilt in a certain direction, but your individuality can easily overpower that and then some.  The big exceptions are obviously size and strength, pregnancy, and cultural norms, and it's there where the writing of a woman would differ.

I think Judy nails an issue I would address. While I agree with her stereotyping (why would there be stereotypes if they werent for the most part true) I'd just include one caveat: Its a stereotype (Female=Emotional/talkative, Men=not) but it is not "the rule".

It's my experience (and opinion) that men are just as (if not far more) sentimental than women. Its their style in revealing this sentiment that differs. (Need I point any further than Shakespeare as an example of just how poignantly a man can depict love?)

I'd say you'd want to watch your vocab/voice. Men compare their feelings to things or situations, while women gauge their emotions in the realm of "feelings".  Men feel everything a woman does, but they tend not to share their reason behind every emotion whereas a woman is more likely to talk these things out, whether to herself (inner thought) or to a friend. Men tend to be impulsive, accepting their first impression then changing course if necessary, whereas women will think things through to make sure she is feeling something genuinely before having to backtrack or 'regret' a decision. Both methods can provoke their own version of heartache.

Man expressing frustration: He clenches his jaw and scowls, slamming the bowl to the counter before pointing a stern finger in her direction. He will not stand here and have his convictions constantly questioned by her...

Woman expressing that same scene: He infuriated her within an inch of her sanity. She wanted to throw the salad bowl at his head! Can he not see how much she loves him?....



In the male version, his actions and body language conveyed his 'emotion'. In the female version, her feelings of anger and their influence conveyed the same emotion.  While the 'male version' can be used on female characters, it's when you use the 'female version' on the male that readers cry foul that you've made the man "too emotional". That's been my experience anyway. Another phenom is when you use the 'male' technique on a female character, you have readers say "wow, she's so strong and smart." I'm guessing this has to do with not questioning her feelings to death, the way a lot of women sound when you're "in their head". (this entire topic is kinda the basis of my own story, Fatboy)

I write in both POV's quite a bit. The male mind fascinates me in its trademark simplicity. (just to be clear, not simple as in "stupid", but as in "uncluttered"). It's been a long hard road getting it right though. Knowing the difference and employing them in novel form are two very different endeavors.

I like Rory's take on this.  It's a stereotype, but the stereotype matters, because it's a part of the cultural flow.  For me, it's not inherent differences between the sexes that make us this way, but rather the cultures in which we reside.

For example, do men just never feel sad?  Or are they instead typically taught not to express sadness as a general rule?  Crying is not considered a manly trait by most, so therefore that gets repressed early on.

What we're allowed to express also varies depending on culture.  For example, in Bali, a woman is expected not to cry at funerals, and to put on a happy face out of respect.  In Egypt, a woman could be considered quite abnormal for not being overwhelmed with grief and outward displays of emotion at a funeral.

You need to get the dialog and the actions of the character correct for the culture within which they reside, but as to what's going on underneath?  Likely quite the same.  Or at least, varies more according to individuality rather than X or Y.

Judy Goodwin wrote:

I think the two biggest differences are emotions and communication.  Women love these things.  Men don't.

It's a stereotype, but one that needs considering.  Try not to make characters that are gender stereotypes, but understand the role that stereotypes play in society.  For example, perhaps your female character doesn't like talking about herself or her emotions, but feels pressured to do so to fit in, whereas a male character would not experience such pressure.  Or perhaps your female character simply feels more free to express what's going on inside her head, or even think meta-thoughts about her emotional state, just because that's acceptable behavior for her.  The thoughts and feelings going on are (imo) quite similar, but it's the expression of them that differs.

Relying on cultural cues as to what women are like and what men are like will cause you to confuse outward appearance with fact, and you risk making a stereotype instead of a realistic person.  Think about all the times when you acted in a certain way even though you didn't feel like it, just to fit in.  It's no different for women, the difference lies in what those expectations of behavior are.

Well, Maxine at least exemplified the reason every copy of Fifty Shades sits soggy on the bedside table. hee hee


Okay, so hormones, fo sho! Good point! We are 98% science, after all. Noelw, my Noel brethren, you describe the other 2% (may be a small number but the influence is huge) culture/environment.

yup, ingredients are all there. I give this thread a pat on its back....though not while ON my back, that would be slutty.

Here's another stereotype that bears consideration:  Men are more likely than women to express trepidation/fear of inadequacy when it comes to writing from the perspective of the opposite gender. 

Has anyone else found this to be true?  And if it is, why?  Is it that:

a.) Men don't want to seem too comfortable writing from a female POV
b.) Men view women as alien creatures, whereas women emphasize commonalities
c.) Men have more difficulty empathizing with people whom they perceive as different from them, and are aware of this limitation
d.) Women blithely assume that they know how to write from a male perspective, even when their perceptions are, in fact, limited

Today I was over at my brother's house and after eating a Hagan Daaz ice cream bar, he examined the wooden stick and speculated about what sort of machine created it based on the way the wood was cut and the logo that was stamped into it.  It never would have occurred to me to wonder about this.  But is the difference that he's a guy and I'm a girl, or is it that he's a software engineer and I'm an artist? 

The idea that some people go through life mentally taking things apart and trying to figure out how they go together is fascinating to me, because it's not something I do.  Whenever I catch someone doing something that I wouldn't normally do, I mentally file it away.  Then, if I wanted to write about an engineer character, whether male or female, I would consider this behavior as a possible starting point for the character's perspective. 

So I guess when I'm writing characters, I take my cues from real people I know who have something in common with the character, other than being the same gender.

But Linkun, as for practical advice on writing a female character, I would just say, do the best you can, and then have a few women read it and see what they think.  If there's anything glaringly obvious, they'll let you know. 

This topic reminded me of an old Red Dwarf episode where Rimmer's personality was swapped with a female hologram, and he was impersonating her.  When questioned about his odd behavior, he said, "I'm having a woman's period."  Don't do this!  :-)

Last edited by tristania (08-18-2012 17:45:12)

John Hamler wrote:

If you're a man, writing about a woman, I quote Jack Nicholson: "Think of a man... And then take away reason and accountability..."

When writing a man I remember what a man told me: We think about three things, and three things only: Sex, sports and food.

So when writing a man I think of a woman then take away all semblance of a civilized human being, including intellect....



I can't believe you're still single, John.

I am a woman and write genders in my works.

The weird thing is... people find what I write from the male POV more vivid and interesting. For me, writing a feminine character is harder.
My females often come off somewhat flat at first. Odd thing, huh?

tristania wrote:

Today I was over at my brother's house and after eating a Hagan Daaz ice cream bar, he examined the wooden stick and speculated about what sort of machine created it based on the way the wood was cut and the logo that was stamped into it.

http://www.wastedtalent.ca/comic/they-k … get-market

I have so done this... but with M&Ms. 

Last edited by noelw (08-19-2012 19:47:12)

noelw wrote:

tristania wrote:

Today I was over at my brother's house and after eating a Hagan Daaz ice cream bar, he examined the wooden stick and speculated about what sort of machine created it based on the way the wood was cut and the logo that was stamped into it.

http://www.wastedtalent.ca/comic/they-k … get-market

I have so done this... but with M&Ms. 

I spent too many Friday nights in college making maps for my D&D games to accuse anyone else of being a nerd... 

dagnee wrote:

John Hamler wrote:

If you're a man, writing about a woman, I quote Jack Nicholson: "Think of a man... And then take away reason and accountability..."

When writing a man I remember what a man told me: We think about three things, and three things only: Sex, sports and food.

So when writing a man I think of a woman then take away all semblance of a civilized human being, including intellect....



I can't believe you're still single, John.

I'm not single, dags. I've got a lovely girlfriend who loves me and who actually humors all of my chauvinism. Because she's totally secure in who she is. I really do think I love her. Because she's strong. In ways that, okay, I don't always understand... But in ways that are understandable once she explains them to me. And in such great detail I often wanna go fishing without a net...

But, seriously, and in fact... She forces me to understand her feelings on a daily basis! And I regard her, because I love her. And she waits for me to finish apologizing because she loves me, too! I think.

Listen... Sure, I like to belabor the battle of the sexes thing. Because I think it's fun, and funny, and a great outlet for cross-gender debate. But please... Don't for one second think I'm a HE-MAN ANTI-WOMAN REPUBLICAN. Because that kind of misogyny is Biblical. Deeply rooted and based on Scripture and the Word OF the Abrahamic GOD. Which you know damned well I abhor.

So... From now on... You must learn to take all my misogynystic rhetoric with a grain of knowledgeable salt. It's only there to spark discussion and, hopefully, heated argument. RUBEN, as a character, is a cocksure catalyst. But, remember, he's only a character. The same "character" who killed that dog.

Cheers

Last edited by John Hamler (08-31-2012 05:10:58)

John Hamler wrote:

MEn see women as sexual objects. ALL THE TIME. Even their own cousins, for chrissakes. And, according to Freud, even their own mothers. In spite of their fathers. Sick, yes... But weirdly true...

I don't believe women look upon men in such a way. I don't believe that women sexualize men so thriftily. I could be wrong, though.

In any case, whatever women think just doesn't matter. Or hasn't much mattered for thousands of years. THings change, of course, but not intstinct. A lot of women are just not aware of, or refuse to believe, the psycho-sexual phenomenom I've been describing. In fact, many girls count boys amongst their very best friends.

Why? Because they don't get along with other girls. Having no idea that the nerdy and innocuous high school chemist with whom you share your most intimate secrets in fact wants nothing more than to scientifically FUCK your brains out!

That's not just obvious from teenaged Hollywood scripts, but biologically obvious. This is not funny. Not at all. I've just found out that, in America, there are 32,000 impregnated victims of rape every year. EVERY YEAR. And that's just the one's who get IMPREGNATED. How many more rape victims are NOT impregnated? I shudder to think. Frankly, I don't only shudder. I refuse to listen. Shame on me....

But, that is why ANTAGONY itself is so important. It's a referendum on masculinity. Asking WHY? Why do men rape, pillage, and go to war while women do not? I do explore the indirect influence that women have on warmongering, though. In fact, I blame a lot of it on women. But only in relation to the weakness of the men they manage to cajole.

And so... If war and conflict is inherently evil, I gotta ask: Are men inherently evil?

And if so... Are women inherently evil as well? For urging men to compete over their maidenhoods.  For isn't the collective uterus the world's greatest natural resource? Isn't that, being the very basis of human life and demography, something worth fighting for? And isn't that why Muslims place burkas over their weaker sex? To prevent ancient-minded bloodshed?

It's a grand question, sure. But not one I'm ready to answer until everyone in America gives up their religious beliefs. I mean, most American women would disregard centuries of ingrained massculinity and say to their husbands: Shut uppa yo face, idiot! You talk too much!

And yes, we would listen. Because we as men are, basically, idiots. To a point...

So... If you can say to your husband FUCK OFF, GIBRONI! I CAN and will do what I want...

Well, why not also say: Fuck GOD!

For, GOD remains the only ENTITY holding you BITCHES back!

Cheers

John

P.S. Don't get too excited, ladies. You'll still need us men to build the roads and bridges and do the heavy lifting that makes your drain run south and not up your asses. Oh, and to build and move your furniture around the house... If that ain't true, I'll eat your pussies for sixteen hours straight. And if that ain't ANTAGONY, I dunno what the fuck I'm doing

Or as the country song says about women: You're setting---(and the poet ain't talkin' 'bout hens when he sez 'You're')---on the world we're all (all including men, except for gay men, but including lesbians) trying to win...

Memphis Trace

Last edited by Memphis Trace (08-31-2012 05:35:48)

No... Don't ruin it, Memphis. I wanna be the opposition to women's rights. I wanna be the standard bearing male chauvinist. But not blatantly. Because the idiots like Todd Akin and whoever... Well, they're too broad of a target. I'm a self-proclaimed intellectual. I want these ladies to lemme have it. To sharpen their Press-On finger-claws upon my willing carcass. Of course, I wanna use some of this exchange for my own fictional benefit. I've made no bones about that. But, more importantly, I'm willing to be a punching bag for feminism. Or whatever they're calling it nowadays. I'm sure they'll let me know. I watch these political channels almost as much as I watch ESPN and I've noticed the jargon beginning to blend. Politics is closer to athletic contest than ever before. Not quite to the point I'm drafting FANTASY rosters, but not that far off. And in 2012? WOMEN figure prominently. Are women happy applying fingernail polish? Or are they happier applying themselves --mind, body and soul-- for a cause beyond their own family?

Because: FUCK your family. Your FAMILY don't mean shit, MOM! And I mean it. That's a BI-partisan piece of truthiness. WE don't care if your kids go to college or not. WE don't care if you've got breast cancer. Shit happens. Because as long as ONE SINGLE PERSON is struggling with drug addiction... As long as ONE SINGLE PERSON is struggling because of a lack of education, or a lack of common sense... We are gonna give EVERYTHING we have. EVERYTHING! Until those drugs are legalized and those classes are legitamized to the point we bring that crack-addicted idiot up to speed. (Well, we don't want her to do speed --methamphtamine-- but you know what I mean).

Then again.... YOu wanna be a suck-ass piece of shit crack-whore prostitute? That's cool! We won't judge you. But we WILL tax your pussy for whatever it's worth.

You wanna be a suck-ass piece of shit capitalist banker? That's cool! We won't judge you. But we WILL tax your ass for whatever it's worth.

And we WILL redistribute that wealth to save the aforementioned crack-whore. If she'll accept rehabilitation. If not? We'll STILL pay out our noses to keep her alive, well, and able to turn her life aroudn.

Becasuse why? Beacause we're sympathetic idiots, I guess. So what? So sue us?

You don't like it? Well, move to Europe. Wait. No. Europe won't do. Move to Iran. No? Well, move to the Moon and wait for GOD to grant you some oxygen entitlements. You religious fuckin idiot...

A lot of people suck. Sure. A lot of people flat piss you off with how lazy and incompetent they seem to be. Pity them. Don't despair. Don't resent them. Kill them instead.

Not literally, but with kindness. Because, hey... We're all too happy to be charitable. As long as we're acknowleged for it. In a perfect world we'd all be ultra-rich Mormon space alien altruists. But in the meantime...

Vote Democrat. Vote Obama. It's the only way forward. Even the Blue Dogs see the light. If only because the militant Party of God stance won't stand or improve our standing in the world. And America is a part of the world. Or, at least, I want it to be. Sure, the USA is exceptional. But we shouldn't be exclusivist. I dunno...

I'm tired. And drunk. Someone else take up this liberal mantle. For the love of whatever... GO!