Hey jlmo.  I'll use some of the more pungent leftovers for my omelet.  And I'll skip the coffee and head right to the Yeungling tap.  Too nice a day for bitter coffee.  You and I seem to be the only patrons of this joint these days and we're not here that often.  Too bad but it does leave more of the good food and fine beverages for our use. 

Have a Joyous Weekend.  That goes to you and anyone else that pokes their head in here.

jb

j l mo wrote:

This is a quiet lil place nowadays, isn't it? Ah well the better to work with less distraction.

Now that Zimmerman's in jail central Florida seems a lil quieter as well. Did I tell you my husbands summation on the whole thing? "A dumb wanna be cop meets a dumb wanna be thug in the night and exchange bad decisions." Not a 'bad' summation.

I'm doing a shot and going to bed. My book has beat the hell outta me. I'm going to start posting my final revisions on Thursday,  I think.

G'nite!

j l mo,

I've not been keeping up with the Martin/Zimmerman thing. Could you find out from your husband which of them was the wannabe cop and which was the wannabe thug? Or is there a difference in central Florida?

Memphis Trace

Last edited by Memphis Trace (04-12-2012 01:49:25)

j l mo wrote:

I'll ask. But to clarify, you're asking 'Is there a difference between cop and thug' in Central Florida or just the 'wanna be'?

But really, I think the common element here is 'dumb'. If it had been my quote, I would have used much stronger language. Just sayin'.

Hey Memphis, I haven't checked in on Pearl and company. How's GAD coming along?

How was Martin dumb?  From what I can gather, his only crime was walking while black. And yes, my question is Is there a difference between cop and thug in Central Florida? For all of my adult life I've seen the same kind of questionable treatment of black victims of violence in the south. 

Do we even know what happened when Zimmerman confronted Martin? The real dumb thing here is that a person with Zimmerman's incapacities could ever legally own a gun.

I've finished GAD and have mailed it off to several publishers and continue to scour for publishers or agents.

Memphis Trace

Last edited by Memphis Trace (04-12-2012 10:57:47)

j l mo wrote:

Belly up to the bar Memphis and let's share...

I will go over what has been published in the Orlando Sentinel (owned by Tribune Media Services) using my own vernacular.

The dumb wanna-be cop (Zimmerman) tailed the dumb wanna-be thug (Martin), until the dumb wanna-be thug ditched him. Then the dumb wanna-be cop tried to find the dumb wanna-be thug and got jumped. Good for dumb wanna-be thug! Except...dumb wanna-be thug was unaware that dumb wanna-be cop had been issued a firearm! Go NRA!

Now, let's make it real.

I'm a dumb wanna-be cop and you are a dumb wanna-be thug. I've been trailing you, and you have been made aware of that fact. You ditch me. What do I do next?

A) Call the cops
B) Go my way and let the cops handle it (since I'd already called them once)
C) Go and look for the guy that ditched me

Me? I'd pick B.

Now, let's reverse roles. You're the dumb wanna-be cop and I'm the dumb wanna-be thug. You've been trailing me, and I am aware of that fact. I ditch you. What do I do next?

A) call the cops
B) stay out of sight until the cops arrive
C) go out and jump you

Me? I'd pick A.

However, I'm not dumb, and neither are you. I could give a flute-flying-hell what color God wrapped you in at birth. You are either dumb, or you are not. But, bad decisions can be made by intelligent people. No argument there. But in this scenario, I see very little intellect involved.

I wish Zimmerman could fry. Sparky still works here in Florida. Unfortunately, Second Degree Murder is not a capital offense. He'd just spend life behind bars. Oh well.

By the way, best of luck with the publication of Good At Dying! Here's hoping Pearl and the gang are enjoyed by millions! And, maybe in the process, you make millions. *clink*

I suppose I could get into the Orlando Sentinel and read the story without your vernacular?

Just so I could determine how Martin has come to earn the appellation of "wannabe thug". You do know that changes the whole story if we start with Martin so labelled? It almost makes it sound like Zimmerman was just being a good neighbor.

What's even worse is how long it took the police to even charge Zimmerman with a crime. Aren't we all glad to see the big Z get a chance to show in court what a good neighbor he was?

Memphis Trace

j l mo wrote:

Morning Memphis!

I've got a fresh pot of coffee brewing. Grab yourself a cup and join me at my booth. Tea bags are in the counter above the coffee pot if you'd rather. But, you already know that, don't you? Sorry.

Memphis Trace wrote:

Just so I could determine how Martin has come to earn the appellation of "wannabe thug". You do know that changes the whole story if we start with Martin so labelled? It almost makes it sound like Zimmerman was just being a good neighbor.

Good neighbors don't get charged with Second Degree Murder, Memphis.

I have two sons. In their early youth, both went through what I called a 'goth' phase. I don't have to explain that to you, I'm sure. They didn't do anything they could be charged for, nothing illegal, but while walking in downtown O-town, dressed in the appropriately costumed theme for goth, they got hassled by store owners, bouncers, as well as those who were generally non-goths. They outgrew the phase, dropped their dark clothes and black eyeliner, and joined the rest of what society calls 'normal'. During that phase I called them 'wanna-be' goths. They had not embraced the lifestyle of the true Goth subculture. They just wanted to be non-conformist. Fortunately for me, but mostly for them, they lived through it.

Trayvon Martin did not survive his non-conformist (in his case wanna-be thug) lifestyle phase.

Memphis Trace wrote:

What's even worse is how long it took the police to even charge Zimmerman with a crime.

If the police had arrested him immediately without solid backing of the charges, he would have walked. Now, picture Big Z walking on a technicality. Now, picture Liberty City playing out in Sanford, Florida.

I believe they got him 'dead to rights'. I believe that because they took so long to arrest him.

Why would arresting him immediately have jeopardized what they found out about him while he was on the loose?

And how can it be that a writer at the scene who is looking to espouse for justice is going about among their friends trumpeting that a statement like this "A dumb wanna be cop meets a dumb wanna be thug in the night and exchange bad decisions." is Not a 'bad' summation.

I say, your husband's summation, far from being Not a bad summation is at best an endorsement of a gun-toting vigilante killing a young man whose only offense against society was an unfortunate choice in clothing.

If I were an advocate for justice in Central Florida, I'd be looking for a change of venue if other folks there think your husband's summation is not a bad one.

Memphis Trace

jl mo, you and memphis seem to have had a discussion that has wound down.  I'm just popping in for a few quick beers as I'm getting ready to head to the woods for a short time.  Springtime chores need to be done at the cabin.  My reading and reviewing on the site has been lacking lately.  Too many distractions.  I've still been able to spend a couple hours a day working on the writing though.  Not that there are a lot of finished projects yet.  Soon, soon. 

So ya'll be nice to each other while I'm gone.  I'm replenishing the good stuff before I head out.  Enjoy.
jb

I particularly like the way people with no complete knowledge of the facts have deemed Zimmerman guilty, or innocent for that matter. And that doesn't just include people on forums. We're talking cable news outlets (some who have been forced to offer retractions), Congresscritters, Sharpton, Jackson, Lee, Black Panther bounties (oh, I forgot. Holder doesn't charge them with anything. They've been exempt since the 2008 election), and the list goes on and on.

Memphis Trace wrote:

thesilentone wrote:

I particularly like the way people with no complete knowledge of the facts have deemed Zimmerman guilty, or innocent for that matter. And that doesn't just include people on forums. We're talking cable news outlets (some who have been forced to offer retractions), Congresscritters, Sharpton, Jackson, Lee, Black Panther bounties (oh, I forgot. Holder doesn't charge them with anything. They've been exempt since the 2008 election), and the list goes on and on.

I have no complete knowledge of the facts and I don't hold him guilty of anything until after he's proven guilty of something. As close as I can tell, he used a gun to kill Martin who was unarmed. That ought to be reason enough for the authorities to hold him until the evidence could be gathered.

I think the madness here is that a person like Zimmerman could own a gun he could conceal on his person and that the law apparently has been written so that he can legally use it to kill another person who is unarmed.

Memphis Trace

A person "like" Zimmerman? What is he "like"?

He was arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder. That's not enough for you?

If you were up against someone kicking your ass and you don't know if they're going to stop or not, wouldn't it be nice if you could save yourself?

I don't see any madness with people saving their lives.

thesilentone wrote:

Memphis Trace wrote:

thesilentone wrote:

I particularly like the way people with no complete knowledge of the facts have deemed Zimmerman guilty, or innocent for that matter. And that doesn't just include people on forums. We're talking cable news outlets (some who have been forced to offer retractions), Congresscritters, Sharpton, Jackson, Lee, Black Panther bounties (oh, I forgot. Holder doesn't charge them with anything. They've been exempt since the 2008 election), and the list goes on and on.

I have no complete knowledge of the facts and I don't hold him guilty of anything until after he's proven guilty of something. As close as I can tell, he used a gun to kill Martin who was unarmed. That ought to be reason enough for the authorities to hold him until the evidence could be gathered.

I think the madness here is that a person like Zimmerman could own a gun he could conceal on his person and that the law apparently has been written so that he can legally use it to kill another person who is unarmed.

Memphis Trace

A person "like" Zimmerman? What is he "like"?

He was arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder. That's not enough for you?

If you were up against someone kicking your ass and you don't know if they're going to stop or not, wouldn't it be nice if you could save yourself?

I don't see any madness with people saving their lives.

What I meant by "like" for purposes of this discussion was a person given to being an enforcer of the law without the requisite training in apprehending suspects or the requisite training in using a gun as a weapon to do it with.

I make no secret, though, that I think it is madness that it is legal in this country for a citizen who is not a law enforcement officer to carry a concealable weapon outside his home. And, if I were king, I'd make the requirements for possessing a concealable (on a dressed person) gun inside the home so onerous that only the most angelic of humans could purchase a weapon and that human would have to wait a year to take possession of it after he had been sainted by the licensing authority.

As you pointed out, Zimmerman was arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder. That is enough for me, but what wasn't enough for me was that the authorities did not hold him in custody until they could gather the facts of the killing. Was there ever any question that Zimmerman stalked, confronted, and shot to death an unarmed person? Whether in a tussle ensuant or not?

If that jurisdiction has a law that would permit the release of Zimmerman before such evidence was gathered, then the law is just so much more of the madness that the NRA donees have perpetrated on this country. It is absolute madness.

If I were up against somebody who was kicking my ass and I didn't know if they would stop it, wouldn't it be nice if I could save myself? Oh please. This is such a skewed look at what happened that I doubt Zimmerman would even testify to its accuracy.

But as for me, I've seen enough violence perpetrated by cowards who possess hand guns to know that I don't want the law to embolden that subset of citizen by giving them free rein to carry a concealed weapon. Being a coward myself for physical confrontation, I don't want the law to do things that will encourage me out into the night to confront people, which as I understand it is what happened here.

I have to hope that justice is done now that Zimmerman is in custody and has been charged. I am dubious given what has transpired so far, and what has been the historic dispensing of justice in cases in this country where unarmed blacks are killed by armed vigilantes.

A big worry for me is that all the publicity engendered by the outcry from both sides will make it impossible for a fair rendering of justice by a jury of Zimmerman's peers. As one who believes Zimmerman committed 2nd degree murder (at least), I don't believe they can empanel a jury in that jurisdiction that will render justice.

If I were in Zimmerman's corner, I would argue that the publicity from the black community had tainted the jury pool beyond redemption anywhere in the civilized world as well as in Florida.

Memphis Trace

Last edited by Memphis Trace (04-20-2012 04:24:12)

thesilentone wrote:

Memphis Trace wrote:

What I meant by "like" for purposes of this discussion was a person given to being an enforcer of the law without the requisite training in apprehending suspects or the requisite training in using a gun as a weapon to do it with.

He is not an enforcer of the law. He is just a concerned citizen. He was never going to apprehend Martin. The vast majority of citizens who have guns at home, or permits to carry do so for protection only.

I make no secret, though, that I think it is madness that it is legal in this country for a citizen who is not a law enforcement officer to carry a concealable weapon outside his home. And, if I were king, I'd make the requirements for possessing a concealable (on a dressed person) gun inside the home so onerous that only the most angelic of humans could purchase a weapon and that human would have to wait a year to take possession of it after he had been sainted by the licensing authority.

There is training required to be able to carry a gun.

As you pointed out, Zimmerman was arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder. That is enough for me, but what wasn't enough for me was that the authorities did not hold him in custody until they could gather the facts of the killing. Was there ever any question that Zimmerman stalked, confronted, and shot to death an unarmed person? Whether in a tussle ensuant or not?

It first appeared to local authorities that it was a simple case of self-defense. That's why he was not held. It was only later when others got involved that this turned into the circus it's become.

If that jurisdiction has a law that would permit the release of Zimmerman before such evidence was gathered, then the law is just so much more of the madness that the NRA donees have perpetrated on this country. It is absolute madness.

The NRA donees beleive in teh Second Amendment, the one thatcertain folks are always trying to get rid of. That is madness to most of us.

If I were up against somebody who was kicking my ass and I didn't know if they would stop it, wouldn't it be nice if I could save myself? Oh please. This is such a skewed look at what happened that I doubt Zimmerman would even testify to its accuracy.

In other words, you have made up your mind as to what happened without knowing all of the facts. Nice. If Martin had not followed Zimmerman back to his vehicle, would we be having this conversation? See, I can play the "what if" games as well.

But as for me, I've seen enough violence perpetrated by cowards who possess hand guns to know that I don't want the law to embolden that subset of citizen by giving them free rein to carry a concealed weapon. Being a coward myself for physical confrontation, I don't want the law to do things that will encourage me out into the night to confront people, which as I understand it is what happened here.

Again, not everyone who wants to carry gets the opportunity. And, the majority of gun violence takes place by those are not carrying legally. That is beyond argument.

I have to hope that justice is done now that Zimmerman is in custody and has been charged. I am dubious given what has transpired so far, and what has been the historic dispensing of justice in cases in this country where unarmed blacks are killed by armed vigilantes.

Well, I can see that you are already judge, jury, and executioner on this, so you aren't going to wait for the facts, and you definitely could not be a juror. Again, if the facts show that Martin followed Zimmerman back to his vehicle, and started beating on him, and Zimmerman acted in self defense, are you going to abandon your vigilante theme, or just continue on believing what you want?

A big worry for me is that all the publicity engendered by the outcry from both sides will make it impossible for a fair rendering of justice by a jury of Zimmerman's peers. As one who believes Zimmerman committed 2nd degree murder (at least), I don't believe they can empanel a jury in that jurisdiction that will render justice.

If anything, it has been outcry from the Martin perspective that have made a defense for Zimmerman nearly impossible. Jackson, Sharpton, some in Congress, themainstrream media, Black Panthers. All have acted irresponsibly. Shameful.

If I were in Zimmerman's corner, I would argue that the publicity from the black community had tainted the jury pool beyond redemption anywhere in the civilized world as well as in Florida.

Memphis Trace

Finally something that wwe can agree on.

How much of your version of what happened that night is verifiable? Where did you get your information?

Memphis Trace

Last edited by Memphis Trace (04-20-2012 09:56:34)

thesilentone wrote:

Memphis Trace wrote:

thesilentone wrote:

Memphis Trace wrote:

What I meant by "like" for purposes of this discussion was a person given to being an enforcer of the law without the requisite training in apprehending suspects or the requisite training in using a gun as a weapon to do it with.

He is not an enforcer of the law. He is just a concerned citizen. He was never going to apprehend Martin. The vast majority of citizens who have guns at home, or permits to carry do so for protection only.

I make no secret, though, that I think it is madness that it is legal in this country for a citizen who is not a law enforcement officer to carry a concealable weapon outside his home. And, if I were king, I'd make the requirements for possessing a concealable (on a dressed person) gun inside the home so onerous that only the most angelic of humans could purchase a weapon and that human would have to wait a year to take possession of it after he had been sainted by the licensing authority.

There is training required to be able to carry a gun.

As you pointed out, Zimmerman was arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder. That is enough for me, but what wasn't enough for me was that the authorities did not hold him in custody until they could gather the facts of the killing. Was there ever any question that Zimmerman stalked, confronted, and shot to death an unarmed person? Whether in a tussle ensuant or not?

It first appeared to local authorities that it was a simple case of self-defense. That's why he was not held. It was only later when others got involved that this turned into the circus it's become.

If that jurisdiction has a law that would permit the release of Zimmerman before such evidence was gathered, then the law is just so much more of the madness that the NRA donees have perpetrated on this country. It is absolute madness.

The NRA donees beleive in teh Second Amendment, the one thatcertain folks are always trying to get rid of. That is madness to most of us.

If I were up against somebody who was kicking my ass and I didn't know if they would stop it, wouldn't it be nice if I could save myself? Oh please. This is such a skewed look at what happened that I doubt Zimmerman would even testify to its accuracy.

In other words, you have made up your mind as to what happened without knowing all of the facts. Nice. If Martin had not followed Zimmerman back to his vehicle, would we be having this conversation? See, I can play the "what if" games as well.

But as for me, I've seen enough violence perpetrated by cowards who possess hand guns to know that I don't want the law to embolden that subset of citizen by giving them free rein to carry a concealed weapon. Being a coward myself for physical confrontation, I don't want the law to do things that will encourage me out into the night to confront people, which as I understand it is what happened here.

Again, not everyone who wants to carry gets the opportunity. And, the majority of gun violence takes place by those are not carrying legally. That is beyond argument.

I have to hope that justice is done now that Zimmerman is in custody and has been charged. I am dubious given what has transpired so far, and what has been the historic dispensing of justice in cases in this country where unarmed blacks are killed by armed vigilantes.

Well, I can see that you are already judge, jury, and executioner on this, so you aren't going to wait for the facts, and you definitely could not be a juror. Again, if the facts show that Martin followed Zimmerman back to his vehicle, and started beating on him, and Zimmerman acted in self defense, are you going to abandon your vigilante theme, or just continue on believing what you want?

A big worry for me is that all the publicity engendered by the outcry from both sides will make it impossible for a fair rendering of justice by a jury of Zimmerman's peers. As one who believes Zimmerman committed 2nd degree murder (at least), I don't believe they can empanel a jury in that jurisdiction that will render justice.

If anything, it has been outcry from the Martin perspective that have made a defense for Zimmerman nearly impossible. Jackson, Sharpton, some in Congress, themainstrream media, Black Panthers. All have acted irresponsibly. Shameful.


Finally something that wwe can agree on.

How much of your version of what happened that night is verifiable? Where did you get your information?

Memphis Trace

All we have are the witnesses who have been publicly interviewed, the 9-1-1 call, and Zimmerman's father's recount of what his son told him that happened.

What do we think we know thus far?:

1) The fight took place near Zimmerman's vehicle. That means that Martin came to him.

2) Zimmerman was treated at the scene for a broken nose and gashes on his head, consistent with his account of how he was injured.

3) The fight ended up on some grass, consistent with Zimmerman's statement that he had to get away from the sidewalk or keep getting his head bashed in.

4) Witnesses had Martin on top of Zimmerman, consistent with Zimmerman's account.

If there are more witnesses and/or forensic evidence, we haven't been privvy to it yet. We don't know if Martin saw Zimmerman's gun during the struggle or not. If he did, maybe he went for it and Zimmerman pulled it out and shot before Martin could get it. That's just speculation though. We may never know everything.

Where can I go to find out what we know thus far? Where did you get your information?

Memphis Trace

Hello Everybody!

Since jb's not around to tap the keg, I'll do the honors. For any of you who might prefer something else, help yourselves. It's Friday night and apparently, I'd missed Thursday altogether. It looks like some good discussions were taking place.

For those of you who follow wiki, here's an interesting link on the case; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

If you'd like a little less heavy reading, here's a blogger who seems to go facts first; http://www.bob-owens.com/2012/04/the-tr … r-dummies/

Now, no swearing and no getting your feelings hurt. Well, hurt feelings aren't prohibited, they're just frowned upon. Ha!

As for me, I've made my feelings known. But it should all come out in the wash.

Cheers!

I'm a little nervous. The Memory Eater anthology is short by $905.00 and there are only four days left to pledge. If you were 'going to pledge', but haven't, now is the time!

You're gonna make me say "Please", aren't you?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/875 … -anthology

Last edited by j l mo (05-07-2012 14:17:59)