Thank you for bringing this up!  Sometimes people think every piece of advice they get is gold.  While you should never dismiss any without considering it, sometimes it's flat out wrong.

In THRILLERS the opening scene is often less than 1,200 words to give immediacy but this is a rule of thumb and not a rule of law.  For other types of books, that limit doesn't really matter.

The short opening only works if the type of book you are writing leads itself to a quick opening.   If you are writing lit fic or a drama, a longer opening might work better.

Agents hate info dumps which some people think is backstory.    You are right.  Well integrated, well done backstory is so good you don't notice you got the history.   And that is fine.  Plus some books REQUIRE backstory such as sci-fi novels, some historical romances...ecetera.

With advice---always consider the source.

Which Sharon, as you know, makes rewriting all the harder.  You have to pick who to trust.

Last edited by TirzahLaughs (05-17-2011 08:27:11)

I like short chapters online because it's easier for me to give a constructive review because I can see it in smaller bits.   

But if you separate the paragraphs, I'll do a longer one if the chapter is good.  A good chapter reads fast but I'll still have more to say in the review.

I said much the same thing in another thread recently. It bugs me to see it. I end up using part of my review to dispel some really bad advice...such as recently, when a reviewer gave the writer unqualified advice that dialogue should ALWAYS be limited.

I think what bugs me even more, and I'm not sure there is a remedy to this, is the multitude of reviews that result in nothing more than "it's great". Review after review of "I'm loving this!" isn't going to help the writer much. And it's particularly troubling when the work, in my opinion, has issues. I started reviewing one such work last week and was the only person bothering to point anything out. The writer was VERY grateful at first, then stopped replying.

What's sad about that is a year from now, if they're still on this site, they'll be begging for substantive reviews.

It always alarms me when people post rewrites and preface them with things like: "Incorporated all suggestions." I've NEVER used 100% of the advice that I've received on any given piece I've posted here. You have to pick and choose who you listen to. And I always check out the work of those who review me. If it sucks, chances are their suggestions will be discarded. But sometimes reviewers do offer practical advice as far as the reading experience goes, which to me is invaluable.

On the flipside, even bad advice can sometimes highlight a new avenue of thinking, or point out unintended patterns in our writing. Or, most importantly, get us to research and learn--even if it's just to debunk. And when you couple that with reaching a point where you can confidently dismiss advice that doesn't vibe, you've grown as a writer. You don't get there by being pompous or egotistical, you get there as a result of investing in exactly this kind of process.

While I completely agree that extolling bad advice as gospel is a very bad thing, the smart writer will do the homework necessary to understand why it is bad advice.

Last edited by linda lee (05-18-2011 12:06:26)

Memphis, there IS as you put it a 'mechanism' where a reviewer could be called to task.  You are looking at it (or, actually writing on it)  It's called the forums.  If you feel like calling someone out, do it. 

But I do see where Linda is coming from.  I used to also get VERY upset by the advice newbie writers were getting, advice of this kind, but like Sharon, I have come around to thinking ...differently.  We've ALL been there and gotten that advice.  I doubt a writer alive hasn't. And like the kindergarden student who is required to move through life and learn by experience, we all did as Linda mentioned, researched, realized that it was probably a good idea to research those doling out advice.  In essence, we GREW as writers.

I now think that while I'll always be there to tell a new writer when I disagree with advice they've been given by another writer - I also believe it's part of the process of going from 'one who writes' to being a 'writer'.  The BIGGEST part of such is learning to trust your own writerly instincts.  Not allowing that learning to run its natural course might be just as harmful to the writer, I do believe.

But I agree with everything you're saying, in theory.  I just think that in practice, writers kind of have to learn from experience, just like with everything else in life.  There is a moment in a writer's life where they finally fully trust their own instincts, and getting to that point requires being able to navigate the 'rough waters' of advice/critiques, etc. from readers.

Also it IS good to know that SOME editors/agents, etc feel a certain way about certain things so that when you are at the query point, you are equipped with all of the knowledge that will enable you to approach the RIGHT people with (for) your work.

Last edited by Jeni Decker (05-18-2011 13:42:43)

linda lee wrote:

I said much the same thing in another thread recently. It bugs me to see it. I end up using part of my review to dispel some really bad advice...such as recently, when a reviewer gave the writer unqualified advice that dialogue should ALWAYS be limited.

I always refrain from taking another reviewer to task in another writer's review. But maybe I should. Maybe we all should if we disagree, and if we can clearly see the advice is bogus. At least, I see often enough reviewers either saying they either agree, or disagree with s_thatcher.  I don't want the burden.

It's always the lone voice a writer should pay attention to; whether the lone voice is right or wrong - it makes us take a stand, and choose. Listening to lone voices is hard in an environment where consensus tends to make us lazy. 

But bad advice can spread like an oil spill and produce the same effect on a writer's creativity, when delivered as gospel.

Memphis Trace wrote:

s_thatcher wrote:

Lately, the advice I've seen given is really the blind leading the blind. Advice such as this: Agents and publishers hate backstory - this will get you a rejection (Agents and publishers hate POORLY written backstory.); Limit opening scenes to no more than 800-1200 words. (Is that the norm?); You used the word 'had' and 'was' twice, and so on. Maybe some (or many) writers like hearing this kind of thing, and find it helpful.

Sharon,

This type of advice is the worst kind of advice. It is presented as universal truth, when in fact it is usually something a reviewer heard from one or two agents in a seminar the reviewer paid $35 to attend (with lunch included). Or maybe, they got the advice from a tired, lazy, jaded agent who was having a bad day and didn't want to tell the writer that he didn't feel up to reading the reviewer's submission he promised he'd read at the seminar.

TNBW would benefit mightily if there were a provision for reviewing reviews. The main thing that would do is give us a site-approved forum to challenge such counsel at the specific source. And it would soon stop these kind of reviewers from saying such ridiculous things in a public forum.

This kind of counsel is a virus that spreads like wildfire in a workshop environment. Such 'elevator wisdom' gains traction by virtue of being adopted as gospel by less-experienced writing aspirants who will then promptly set about ruining any chances they ever had of making their starts into stories. Those inexperienced writing aspirants then start to go forth infecting other writing aspirants in their brood. It takes a lifetime for some of these reviewers to recognize the error of their ways.

A good way to decide if the advice is even working for the reviewer is to read something the reviewer is writing to see if he is applying it himself and if he is, to see if you'd ever want to be known, whether published or not, for writing something as bad as he's written. A better way is to read something published by a writer you really would like to emulate and find out how that writer applies such elevator wisdom.

Every story I've ever had published has been rejected by editors for such spurious 'universal' reasons as you've picked out above. Oftentimes when they were published, the editors who published them would 'love' them for the reason(s) the editors who rejected gave for rejecting them. A good maxim to apply when you get a rejection from an editor is "Everybody will hate it until somebody loves it." 

You are wise to dismiss these "universal" opinions in a workshop environment for what they are, well-meaning but misguided third-hand interpretations of counsel the reviewer overheard part of on an elevator going to the first floor for his box lunch at his $35 seminar.

Memphis Trace

Like I said, it's because I've been reviewing more lately that I've come across this 'wildfire' of bogus advice igniting brushfires everywhere. One reviewer heard it from another, and then that reviewer passed it on in their review, and so it goes...

I like your 'better way' for how to take advice: A good way to decide if the advice is even working for the reviewer is to read something the reviewer is writing to see if he is applying it himself and if he is, to see if you'd ever want to be known, whether published or not, for writing something as bad as he's written. A better way is to read something published by a writer you really would like to emulate and find out how that writer applies such elevator wisdom.

Jeni Decker wrote:

Memphis Trace wrote:

Jeni Decker wrote:

Memphis, there IS as you put it a 'mechanism' where a reviewer could be called to task.  You are looking at it (or, actually writing on it)  It's called the forums.  If you feel like calling someone out, do it. 

But I do see where Linda is coming from.  I used to also get VERY upset by the advice newbie writers were getting, advice of this kind, but like Sharon, I have come around to thinking ...differently.  We've ALL been there and gotten that advice.  I doubt a writer alive hasn't. And like the kindergarden student who is required to move through life and learn by experience, we all did as Linda mentioned, researched, realized that it was probably a good idea to research those doling out advice.  In essence, we GREW as writers.

I now think that while I'll always be there to tell a new writer when I disagree with advice they've been given by another writer - I also believe it's part of the process of going from 'one who writes' to being a 'writer'.  The BIGGEST part of such is learning to trust your own writerly instincts.  Not allowing that learning to run its natural course might be just as harmful to the writer, I do believe.

But I agree with everything you're saying, in theory.  I just think that in practice, writers kind of have to learn from experience, just like with everything else in life.  There is a moment in a writer's life where they finally fully trust their own instincts, and getting to that point requires being able to navigate the 'rough waters' of advice/critiques, etc. from readers.

Also it IS good to know that SOME editors/agents, etc feel a certain way about certain things so that when you are at the query point, you are equipped with all of the knowledge that will enable you to approach the RIGHT people with (for) your work.

Jeni,

I've done this forum thing and ended up in a street fight in public view of folks who could care less about such arguments.

Being able to respond about specific instances of bad advice would save a lot of back story issues. Fewer people would be exposed to a cat fight. And I believe it would have the effect of causing such reviewers to be embarrassed about giving sloppy reviews to the point they'd pre-qualify them before posting.

I'd learn a lot more in a seni-public forum and feel a lot less like a contrarian. Only those people involved in a particular work would be affected unless one of the debaters wanted to take the fight out here into the public forums.

I agree with you that there are many things one must endure to become a confident writing aspirant, but one should have to endure the least amount of sloppy, ill-thought through, and ultimately harmful reviewing a workshop venue can provide.

I hosted a workshop that averaged 15 writers for 10 years. For each work reviewed, we had reviews, reviews of reviews, and a short author response period. When I left that group every one of those writers and readers were rigorous in their reviewing, their reading, and their writing. I learned at least as much during the review of reviews periods as I learned from being reviewed or from reviewing.

Memphis Trace

Oh, I see what you're saying - you're looking for a specific place to respond to reviews that others have given to someone elses work when you might disagree where everyone is able to see it and chime in.  But set aside purposefully for that reason.

I see plenty of times where someone will say (in their review), "Well I disagree with so and so about... and here's why."  Which does show that people are reading the reviews of others and commenting on them as well as giving their own review/advice... which I thought was what you were after...

But I'm not sure tNBW is the sort of place, given the large numbers, for what you're proposing.  As you described your earlier workshop experience, smaller settings, less people - still that WAS a public forum, wasn't it?  If I'm understanding you right, you all participated in the reviews and reviews of reviews.  If that's the case, not sure how the forums here would be any different EXCEPT more people would either be agreeing (or more importantly, DISAGREEING with you.)  Yes, I see how that could end up being a fifteen care pile up on our little road to hell.

What do you think would work here, Memphis?  I like the idea, but have no idea how it could come to fruition relative to this larger 'forum'.  It's certainly food for thought.

I would like that specific place to review a review to be at the place where the reviews are made, i.e., where a writer's work is reviewed. I am tempted many times to say something about reviews here in the forum, but don't feel comfortable doing it. Usually, I don't see "bad" advice in reviews until after I've given my review and many times I don't even read other reviews. But in those cases where I do have a different opinion, I'd like to give that opinion to that specific writer about specific reviews. Likewise, I'd like the mechanism for the reviewer I review to be able to discuss my counterpoint THERE, not HERE.

In the group of 15 I hosted for 10 years, the way we did the reviews was to prepare reviews ahead of time. We gave those in the first 1.5 hours, after a short break we came back for 1.5 hours and anybody who wanted to could review a review or discuss a point raised in another review. In the last .5 hours the writer was required to respond to the day's discussion of his work.

We did it for 10 years. It took us about a year to develop the system so that it was a great learning experience for all involved. Some folks, probably all, including me, changed their opinions about many long held beliefs. Everybody got their theories severely tested.

Memphis Trace

Jeni Decker wrote:

So something like the 'quote' function in the forums where you'd click on a little button within the public review you wanted to critique and it would sort of be tagged directly underneath it as comments or something?

I could see how that would work, actually.  I could also see how it could become a sort of pile up arguement one on top of another where it would take the actual writer of the piece forever to get to the actual reviews - having to wade through the 'reviews of the reviews', otherwise to be known as "writers arguing their point to one another ad nauseum." 

Honestly, it could go either way, but it will clutter up the page listing all the reviews. Unless the 'reviews of reviews' weren't listed until you clicked on some other button - something like "see comments on review".  That way it's not immediately visual, for those who don't care to read the back and forth, but for those that do, they could click the button and see the 'conversation' on that particular review.

Interesting idea!

Not sure how much backing and forthing there'd be, but I assume the writer would read the initial reviews before it became a pile up.

Certainly having an ability to archive the discussion after a decent interval makes sense to save visual space. I don't know how hard that sort of thing is on storage capacity. But a good argument about a point of contention might also provoke more people to review the work.

Memphis Trace

Just wanted to add that while I think it's an interesting idea, what works in a workshop of 15 people might not translate well in this environment.  What you described was a person to person back and forth, that often doesn't work when you're not face to face.  In your scenario, all fifteen people were there TOGETHER at the same time, discussing, riffing off one another.  That COULD translate here, but I guarantee it WOULD require the "backing and forthing" particularly when the sole purpose of one "review of a review" would be to contradict that of another.

Let's be realistic.    You contradict someone, they're probably going to come back and have a go at trying to re-establish their point.  I predict a LOT of "backing and forthing."

Last edited by Jeni Decker (05-18-2011 16:15:29)

s_thatcher wrote:

As a reviewer, my style changes with the level of the writer's craftsmanship. I avoid or go easy on amateurs, but like to hold the good writers' feet to the fire - they deserve nothing less. Lately, I'm more for sticking to feedback about the actual chapter than doling out advice, or regurgitating advice taken from blogs that may be dubious in the first place.

Lately, the advice I've seen given is really the blind leading the blind. Advice such as this: Agents and publishers hate backstory - this will get you a rejection (Agents and publishers hate POORLY written backstory.); Limit opening scenes to no more than 800-1200 words. (Is that the norm?); You used the word 'had' and 'was' twice, and so on. Maybe some (or many) writers like hearing this kind of thing, and find it helpful. I've always thought there are no wrong ways to review, but some of the advice I've been seeing lately just feels wrong, and it makes me aware of what I say in my own reviews. I'll definitely be more conscious of how I review in the future, and the 'advice' I give.

I've been actively reviewing the last couple of days, and I'm seeing this same kind of 'advice' given to new people (and old) like a ripple effect; new writers who are actually better writers than the ones giving advice. Reminder: Just because writers are new to the site does not mean they are new to writing.

Caution: Before taking advice, check out the 'writing' of the person giving the advice. And then go with it or don't.

Sharon, EXACTLY!!!!!!  I'm so glad you put this in the forum. 

What? Limit your opening to 800+ words!???  Maybe in Fly World.  After all, they only have 3 days to read a fly paper.  

I was taught (here at the university) that 3000-5000 words is the norm for most novel chapters.  That's what? 11-15 pages? That smaller word count might be true of non-fiction how-to manuals.

I look at it this way, the only thing that will really get you rejected is a poorly constructed or boring story, bad grammar and/or punctuation, or the agent's/publisher's mood or interest when he/she looks at it (that's probably 9/10ths of it right there).  Even the best writers with the most interesting tales get rejected.  It's hit or miss and luck of the draw, but it never hurts to shave down those rejection odds by simply making sure it's your best work possible and isn't bogged down with unnecessary errors. I think the real trick is to write that killer query, something I've never been good at. If I can't even get them to read my work, how will they ever know how brilliant it is? 

You are so right too to say you should always look who the review or advice is coming from first. As a newbie, I made that very mistake of listening to some reviewers before I looked at their profiles or read their works. I have a Master's in English and Creative Writing and have over 35 years of experience in the field of writing and as it turned out, I was taking advice from a 17-year old high-schooler, a 20 year-old bipolar gamer, and a 65 year old guy who admitted he never made it past the 6th grade (and he was the one I thought had to be an 11-year old kid when I read his work...)  In fact, after reading the first few reviewers' works, I became certain that I wasn't going to find a well-crafted piece on the site in my genre (I eventually did, btw).  And the blow to my own ego from their 1 and 2-rated reviews almost sent me packing from the site. To look back and think that I almost let a couple of twisted munchkins and an uneducated new-to-writing retiree get to me is laughable now.

Thanks, Sharon.  Hopefully, the newbies will read THIS good advice and be the wiser for it.

Last edited by Kydd Dustyn (05-19-2011 09:32:28)