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1    The Dark Angel     By Jeanne M. Bannon    Commercial Fiction


CONGRATS JEANNE!!!

Haha, no problem Jeanne. 

I had all the reviews finished as I read and took notes on the last 12 chapters in a row, I just had a streak of laziness where I wasn't willing to type them up. 

But, I'm going away for about 4 days to a place with no internet so I figured I'd give you a nice little boost before I left

Cheers,
Matty

Hey Jeanne, thanks for the review!  I've been going through and doing some revisions. and then I begin to really appreciate people's input

but I'm just posting here to ask you about the  word herb.  I've just realized,well remembered, that Canadians (probably Americans too?) say the word herb differently to my Aussie dialect. (My ex was Canadian, so I know   You say it 'erb.  But I say it Herb - her-b.  anyway, what I'm asking, should I then still have  an herbwoman or  for me should it remain as a herbwoman?
or am I messing with something that has everything to do with an editors job?

oh well, something interesting to think about. 
I also find that i'm swapping between aussie spelling and US. Not sure what I should be doing. I guess I should aim for consistency.

Last edited by LouLou S (08-04-2010 07:40:45)

I agree Jeanne, "an herbwoman" sounds better to me, mostly because of the way I pronounce it (erb).  But Lou, I think you hit the nail on the head - aiming for consistency is the key.  Write the way it feels and reads comfortably to you, because that will make the story more enjoyable to your readers, no matter where you market it.  And in this case, I would find myself making the adjustment and pronouncing it herb as I read.

rita aguilar wrote:

Hi Jeanne,

As promised, here are some thoughts about the plot to destroy humanity in Dark Angel. 

The wealthiest people of the world want to reduce the population to 1 million? 

On the whole, I would say impossible.  Simply because the wealthiest people of the world are going to understand that their economic empires DEPEND on oodles of cheap labor, and cheap labor depends on overpopulation.  To destroy the world population would undermine their own power and make their wealth meaningless.

The minute they reduce the population to 1 million, they are going to have powerful labor unions out the wazoo, demanding very high pay -- and able to get away with it, because there's no one else out there who will do the work for cheap anymore.  Who's going to produce the food? Who's going to slaughter the cattle? Who's going to run the factories?  Who's going to make all the luxury items these rich folks are accustomed to having?  Who is going to run the grid? The internet? The water supply?  The oil rig?  The ships? Who's going to maintain the highway system? Repair those fancy jet planes? You just can't convince me these rich folks are ready to go back to a hunter and gatherer life style, but that is what it seems they are intent on doing with this plan.

Rita, I must respectfully disagree with part of your above statement.  First, in regards to the supply and demand of labour, your right that in a capitalist economic system cheap labour is dependent on an oversupply of workers, but you're forgetting one important thing, that this new world order they are creating wouldn't be a capitalist system.  I highly doubt they would have people operating under any kind of a free-market system, especially regarding labour.  I imagine the structure would be closer to a feudal system, with a strong ruling class on top (The King's and Queen's), a land owning middle class to run the day-to-day buisness (similar to feudal vassals) and finally a slave serf class.

They could very easily keep everyone in line by having a strong military presence (a la Land of the Dead), or by threatening to release another virus that would wipe out those who don't follow.

Now, I also made a similar point to Jeanne about who was going to run what after everything broke down, and I made my suggestions to her about that.  There are some minor plot hole problems.

But then again, have you ever watched Back to the Future?  How come they don't notice they have a son who looks exactly like a friend who played an important role in their meeting (seems like they wouldn't forget him)?  Seriously, what would you do if your wife had a kid that looked identical to an old high-school fling? I sure wouldn't be none too happy.  It's like they all forgot about him the minute he left.  Bah, nevermind!

Cheers,
Matty

Just curious Jeanne, did you get the idea of the lizard men from David Icke?

It's not going to be much of a playground if they are struggling to feed themselves because they don't have enough laborers to produce food for them.  More than anything, I think the numbers are off.  One million will not be enough to maintain these folks at the comfort level they are accustomed to.  Now, if they are willing to accept all the changes in lifestyle that will come with setting the planet back that many centuries in terms of governance, skilled labor, and the technology that comes with it, that's another story.  Perhaps you can set the story up so it's clear they know what they are in for and are okay with that.

Also, where are these 1 million going to be?  As I've read the story so far, the virus will strike randomly, leaving them scattered all over the planet, which will probably render them very difficult to find and control.  They'll have plenty of places to hide, plenty of farmland and wildland to support themselves instead of slaving for the elite, etc. If you could have our one million (or more) survivors in a particular place that our elite group is ready to contain, that might work better.

I'd put forward the colonial development of Costa Rica as an example of what I'm talking about -- the region was underpopulated compared to all its neighboring colonies during pretty much the entire 300 year period of Spanish rule.  This did not make it easier for the elite to control the labor base, it made it harder  --  because population density was low and plenty of land was available, any potential laborer could simply strike off into wilderness on his own, rather than accept the terms of employment offered by the elites.  What this meant, in concrete terms, is that all the elite of Costa Rica ended up farming their own land, alongside the few very well-paid laborers they were able to recruit.  This was a period characterized by feudal societies, so again, it's not a matter of capitalism vs. feudalism.  More concentrated populations are simply easier to control.


I want to clarify I don't see this as a huge problem with the narrative.  The story itself is very engaging from beginning to end.  Truth is, it's enough to know a weirdo demon guy wants to be Dane's baby via an irresistably handsome lizard/human hybrid -- without all the end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it stuff -- to keep me interested in the story.  But Jeanne did ask our opinion on this, so I'm putting mine forward, for what it's worth.

Last edited by rita aguilar (08-20-2010 06:14:54)

Matty - you should read Jim Marrs and Daniel Estulin - they're bona fide researchers (no reptilian stuff) and what they say will make you see the world differently.

rita aguilar wrote:

I'd put forward the colonial development of Costa Rica as an example of what I'm talking about -- the region was underpopulated compared to all its neighboring colonies during pretty much the entire 500 year period of Spanish rule.  This did not make it easier for the elite to control the labor base, it made it harder  --  because population density was low and plenty of land was available, any potential laborer could simply strike off into wilderness on his own, rather than accept the terms of employment offered by the elites.  What this meant, in concrete terms, is that all the elite of Costa Rica ended up farming their own land, alongside the few very well-paid laborers they were able to recruit.  This was a period characterized by feudal societies, so again, it's not a matter of capitalism vs. feudalism.  More concentrated populations are simply easier to control.

I'm not sure if colonial Costa Rica is a wise choice as an example.  You have to admit that the technology to monitor and control people changed drastically since that time.  Considering DA is written in modern times, it's hard to make a proper analogy to colonial Costa Rica.  Again, considering the advances in automated / factory farming made since that time, Costa Rica of that period may not be the best example.

From my brief readings on Wikipedia (no definitive source, I know), I see that Costa Rica was the only Spanish colony to not use slave labour of indigenous population.  But from my view, this group in DA would essentially be using slave labour.

In Costa Rica the elites weren't the ones working the farms alongside a few rich labourers, the Spanish settlers were.  The real elite were back in Spain collecting the rewards from the colonies, not the colonists who had to work in the field.  The colonists were at best equivalent to middle-class small land owners.

MattyZink wrote:

rita aguilar wrote:

I'd put forward the colonial development of Costa Rica as an example of what I'm talking about -- the region was underpopulated compared to all its neighboring colonies during pretty much the entire 500 year period of Spanish rule.  This did not make it easier for the elite to control the labor base, it made it harder  --  because population density was low and plenty of land was available, any potential laborer could simply strike off into wilderness on his own, rather than accept the terms of employment offered by the elites.  What this meant, in concrete terms, is that all the elite of Costa Rica ended up farming their own land, alongside the few very well-paid laborers they were able to recruit.  This was a period characterized by feudal societies, so again, it's not a matter of capitalism vs. feudalism.  More concentrated populations are simply easier to control.

I'm not sure if colonial Costa Rica is a wise choice as an example.  You have to admit that the technology to monitor and control people changed drastically since that time.  Considering DA is written in modern times, it's hard to make a proper analogy to colonial Costa Rica.  Again, considering the advances in automated / factory farming made since that time, Costa Rica of that period may not be the best example.

From my brief readings on Wikipedia (no definitive source, I know), I see that Costa Rica was the only Spanish colony to not use slave labour of indigenous population.  But from my view, this group in DA would essentially be using slave labour.

In Costa Rica the elites weren't the ones working the farms alongside a few rich labourers, the Spanish settlers were.  The real elite were back in Spain collecting the rewards from the colonies, not the colonists who had to work in the field.  The colonists were at best equivalent to middle-class small land owners.

Yes, but with only 1 million people, it will be impossible to sustain the level of technology we currently have.  Unless the elites of the novel have figured out a way to keep all the techy energy folks alive while killing off all the rest. 

Also, it is a common misconception that Costa Rica had no elites.  Costa Rica had a very well established elite class, that had blood ties to the royal families back in Spain -- as did the rest of New Spain.  They were not middle-class small landowners, they were the folks that monopolized the land as well as the political and religious posts of the province.

One thing we see in history -- the technology changes a lot, but the basic structure of society & human interaction changes very little.  Costa Rica did not have slave labor precisely because the indigenous population was not large enough to support a slave market -- this because they all died off during the first 100 years due to disease and other factors.  Another interesting parallel to Jeanne's story.


Oh -- important correction; that should be 300 years of Spanish rule, not 500.  Sorry about that.

Last edited by rita aguilar (08-20-2010 06:23:59)

Sara Basrai wrote:

David Icke. I have a thing against him. He used to be a cosy TV presenter and then he turned! I watched him on TV as a kid. I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all. I think the world too large and complex to be filled with any one (s) that intelligent!! Icke loses any credibility by not speaking of lizards metaphorically. I never think there's a conspiracy, just an overt battle for the goodies. The holding of the goodies is well protected and shifts over time, sometimes.

I totally agree -- I'm not into conspiracy theories.  The game of power & wealth is enought to explain most anything. 

Sara Basrai wrote:

I still think you could change the name Costa Rica to something made up. Costa.... The reason I say this is to take reality further from the reader's mind. When I think of CR, I think of a cool place with no army and a female president. So take those thoughts away from me. Don't allow me to know anything about your island or have political/historical opinions about it. Make it instead a place where good and evil may lurk! - a place representing the best and worst of humanity - of our self-destructive quality and our desire to survive. All you need is something like Costa Real.  -- or find a French word for demon -- Costa Diable. Or Devils' Door.

I agree with this too, and have said it before.  Please change the name of the setting, because the world you've created -- while wonderful & tropical & exotic -- bears very little resembance to the real Costa Rica.  Most readers won't know the difference, but those that do will be annoyed. 


And again -- you've got a great story, Jeanne, and all these decisions are really yours to make.  Most "destroy the world" Dr. Evil type plans are irrational at heart, anyway.  But I think this gets back to what we were talking about in the daily discussion thread; the importance of establishing a balance between the credible and the fantastic in this genre.  It's not an easy thing to do, and where to draw the line will be different for each reader.

rita aguilar wrote:

Jeanne M. Bannon wrote:

Rita - the population will be microchipped thereby making their whereabouts easy to determine. This is also one of their plans - to inject everyone with a tiny microchip that will be in the forced innoculations (which of course would be ineffective).

This group is connected with other groups around the world and each is tasked with a different job. It would be the job of one of the other groups to round up the survivors.

I suppose I could write it so that some of the innoculations are indeed real and perhaps have that population in a controlled area. I'm going to have to think on this. My book is already really long (over 110,000 words) and I'm not sure how much detail I can go into.

I might have Dane ask more questions and give the answers to the reader that way. The way I see it though is that no matter how crazy and out there a plot is, it's the job of the writer to convince the reader it's possible and that's what I'm trying so desperately to do.

Hi Jeanne,

Well, it sounds to me like you've really thought this out, just that the details are missing from the narrative to make it come across as a "reasonable" -- or at least a "buyable" plan.  Of course, it doesn't have to be reasonable -- your other option is to give us more insights into Greg's pack of villains, so we can see how crazy they really are. 

Another thing I'd have asked were I "elite number 7" at Greg's first powerpoint presentation:  Who's going to clean up those 6 billion bodies?   These are going to be happy days for the carrion beetles... 

Hi Rita - How do I just select a part of a post to quote and respond to?

Anyway, the microchipping is in there, I've beefed it up a bit more in the rewrite and I also give the readers more insight into the elitist's plans later in the book. There is one thing I think everyone is forgetting about and that's that the plan is not really the plan of these human beings, but rather the plan of Apollonius who is the anti-christ awaiting his human form. Once he's on the earth, I wouldn't expect it would be such a great place to be - he might like all those dead bodies lying around. Apollonius is leading Greg along and Greg in turn is leading the men. I've used Biblical prophecy as well as conspiracy theories. I hope I haven't bitten off more than I can chew. I think my next book will be on a less complicated topic.

hey thanks Jeanne. sorry I had nothing hugely intelligent to offer. I've got this major headache right now, and I'm trying to write this next chapter of mine.

but honestly, I never even gave it a thought. I just believe - because you make me believe its all possible.  perhaps I hadn't taken it apart and studied the whole thing. I'm just so wrapped up in your story. For me, your story is more about the characters than about the plotline.
and the bottom line, for me, I'm assuming whatever the badguys are planning is not going to work anyway!  well, I'm hoping....   as long as Paul and Bridget don't get killed, I'll be happy....   oh, and June....   and I hope Dane gets wise....

I think you are doing a great job