#101 03-16-2006 10:40:36
- jennifer
- Member

- From: Indiana
- Registered: 11-20-2005
- Posts: 2543
Re: What about a book club?
Nothing happened, Annie. I think Lisa had to go for awhile, that's all. I know this was my idea, but I'm not really sure what to do now. Should I ask questions about what y'all thought about the characters and the over-all theme, or should I wait and let you ask more questions? I'm stumped. So, I'm just going to jump on in.
I know Jilly was hard to take at first, and she's really melodramatic. Was it too much? Over the top? Or was it believable. A lady from my RWA talked to a couple of grief counselors about Jilly after she read the first chapter, and they all said that Jilly's tendency to get stuck in her own head, and to try to control all the details of her life, were natural. But being natural is nice to hear- but that doesn't mean Jilly can't be too much- and even a little unlikable. What do y'all think? And be honest. I already know Barry wants to slap her around every once in a while. ![]()
When does a person get tired, give in, accept their fate and forget to dream?
~~from Hard Boiled Headline by HavePenWillScribble
"Then Mr. Baggins turned the handle and went in. The Took side had won. He suddenly felt he would go without bed and breakfast to be thought fierce." ~Bilbo Baggins The Hobbit
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#102 03-16-2006 11:14:47
Re: What about a book club?
As you said, I can understand Jilly wanting to control every aspect of her life as so much was out of her control in the begining. Yes it can make her, well I wouldn't say unlikable- maybe untouchable- but that was your point right. she pushed everyone away so noone could hurt her ever again. Only she count on Caleb not being that easy to push. If I only knew like her employers- cool and distant than yes I would call her unlikable, But I know her as a reader. I know all her little secrets and the reasons for them- That creates sympathy for your character and allows us, as a reader to fell her frustration and THAT is why Barry wants to slap her- because WE know what she should do, but she can't see it because she is to close to herself. Make sense?
www.annsimko.com
Fallen, book one of the Coyote Moon series
Published by Lyrical Press Inc.
www.lyricalpress.com/fallen
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#103 03-16-2006 11:18:48
Re: What about a book club?
Annie wrote:
I've got a question for you Jen,
Why did Jilly feel it was necassary, once she was an adult to hide from her mother. I mean there are PFA's and court orders, if the tabloids found out about the abuse they could have effectivley stopped her mother right then. Was she just so used to hiding, that she felt it was the only way?
You must have missed this question I asked a little while ago.
www.annsimko.com
Fallen, book one of the Coyote Moon series
Published by Lyrical Press Inc.
www.lyricalpress.com/fallen
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#104 03-16-2006 11:31:26
- jennifer
- Member

- From: Indiana
- Registered: 11-20-2005
- Posts: 2543
Re: What about a book club?
I'm sorry, Annie, I DID miss it.
I think it was a combination of things- first off, no one, not even her father, believed her when she was little. Then, when she grew up, I think she was just so used to being afraid, of hiding, that it never really occured to her there was a way out- not when she would have to tell someone the truth. No one had ever believed her, and I don't think she was going to take the chance of telling her story, and not being believed- because if it failed, her mother would know where she was. It was a risk she just wasn't willing to take.
When does a person get tired, give in, accept their fate and forget to dream?
~~from Hard Boiled Headline by HavePenWillScribble
"Then Mr. Baggins turned the handle and went in. The Took side had won. He suddenly felt he would go without bed and breakfast to be thought fierce." ~Bilbo Baggins The Hobbit
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#105 03-16-2006 11:32:29
- jennifer
- Member

- From: Indiana
- Registered: 11-20-2005
- Posts: 2543
Re: What about a book club?
Annie wrote:
As you said, I can understand Jilly wanting to control every aspect of her life as so much was out of her control in the begining. Yes it can make her, well I wouldn't say unlikable- maybe untouchable- but that was your point right. she pushed everyone away so noone could hurt her ever again. Only she count on Caleb not being that easy to push. If I only knew like her employers- cool and distant than yes I would call her unlikable, But I know her as a reader. I know all her little secrets and the reasons for them- That creates sympathy for your character and allows us, as a reader to fell her frustration and THAT is why Barry wants to slap her- because WE know what she should do, but she can't see it because she is to close to herself. Make sense?
Pshew. That's awesome. I was so worried that she was so aloof, and neurotic, that she was unlikable.
When does a person get tired, give in, accept their fate and forget to dream?
~~from Hard Boiled Headline by HavePenWillScribble
"Then Mr. Baggins turned the handle and went in. The Took side had won. He suddenly felt he would go without bed and breakfast to be thought fierce." ~Bilbo Baggins The Hobbit
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#106 03-16-2006 11:57:09
Re: What about a book club?
Naw, I don't think she's unlikable, If she was an unlikable character she would have turned all that rage and fear outward and become just like her mother. She's just a little neurotic- which considering her past is understandable. I hope Caleb knows what he is getting in for! I'm only about 3/4 through with this so maybe this question is answered at the end of the book
One thing i found a little well off- is how fast and hard Caleb fell for her, he just doesn't seem the type to let a woman take him down that way- He's too independant, what are your thoughts on that?
www.annsimko.com
Fallen, book one of the Coyote Moon series
Published by Lyrical Press Inc.
www.lyricalpress.com/fallen
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#107 03-16-2006 12:37:10
- jennifer
- Member

- From: Indiana
- Registered: 11-20-2005
- Posts: 2543
Re: What about a book club?
I'd thought he fell too fast, as well, but then I realized that Jilly needed someone who loves her, no questions asked, no doubt about it. I think it pushed Jilly, in a way that no one's ever pushed her before. What do you think? If you really think it just didn't gel, I'll go back and try reworking it. There are plenty of other places where he could fall in love with her.
Now, my question to you:
Would it be better, all around, if Jilly didn't own her bookstore, but worked in one, instead? And maybe purchased it at the end? Or would there be another career that she'd be better suited for? Any ideas? People?
When does a person get tired, give in, accept their fate and forget to dream?
~~from Hard Boiled Headline by HavePenWillScribble
"Then Mr. Baggins turned the handle and went in. The Took side had won. He suddenly felt he would go without bed and breakfast to be thought fierce." ~Bilbo Baggins The Hobbit
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#108 03-16-2006 13:20:40
Re: What about a book club?
Hmmm, No I think owning her bookstore fits her personality, take charge and be in control- you can't do that id you work for someone else, on the other hand- it would be easier for someone to find her if she owns her own buisness- interesting question- but if she is going to runa buisness oh yes it has to be a bookstore- that fits in so perfectly with Caleb beinf a writer.
www.annsimko.com
Fallen, book one of the Coyote Moon series
Published by Lyrical Press Inc.
www.lyricalpress.com/fallen
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#109 03-16-2006 13:22:13
- jennifer
- Member

- From: Indiana
- Registered: 11-20-2005
- Posts: 2543
Re: What about a book club?
Cool, cool. That's what I thought, as well.
Now. Caleb and Jilly. Would you put them together? Do their personalities fit each other?
When does a person get tired, give in, accept their fate and forget to dream?
~~from Hard Boiled Headline by HavePenWillScribble
"Then Mr. Baggins turned the handle and went in. The Took side had won. He suddenly felt he would go without bed and breakfast to be thought fierce." ~Bilbo Baggins The Hobbit
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#110 03-16-2006 13:26:02
Re: What about a book club?
Oh heck no- but see that's what makes them so perfect for one another. Jilly is so analytical and percise with her lists and her perfectrion and Caleb is creative, fly by the seat of yuor pants, fiercly loyal , where Jilly is afraid of that loyalty- They NEED each other, it's perfect.
www.annsimko.com
Fallen, book one of the Coyote Moon series
Published by Lyrical Press Inc.
www.lyricalpress.com/fallen
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#111 03-16-2006 13:28:01
Re: What about a book club?
I'm thinking too that when Jilly has her very first Kincade family thing, she's going to want to run the other way but they won't let her- tough love Kincaid style - you know?
www.annsimko.com
Fallen, book one of the Coyote Moon series
Published by Lyrical Press Inc.
www.lyricalpress.com/fallen
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#112 03-16-2006 15:25:01
- lisa
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- Registered: 12-18-2005
- Posts: 847
Re: What about a book club?
I know! Funny -- I like the image of tough love by smothering with attention rather than putting her out on her own to teach her a lesson. :-)
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#113 03-16-2006 18:09:00
Re: What about a book club?
Sorry I came in late. Ending up working today and then the little ones had a doctor check-up. Just now getting settled! But then, we hadn't really set a starting point so I guess now's as good a time as any.
SHOULD JILLY OWN THE BOOKSTORE?
I *love* Jilly owning the book store. It fits her perfectly. Both the love of books AND the need to be in control. BUT if what you're after is a double-whammy at the end -- she gets Caleb AND the book store -- then you *could* consider having her put it on the market when she's freaking over her mother, only to have her take it off the market there at the end, so she will have it forever. OR have her sell it to pay her family's legal expenses and Caleb is the secret buyer and gives it to her as a wedding present. Muhahahahahahaha!
But I loved it all just the way it was. Only throwing that out because you asked about that issue.
Every time I think I know who I am, my characters rewrite me.
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#114 03-16-2006 18:10:47
Re: What about a book club?
IS JILLY TOO NEUROTIC / UNLIKABLE / WHATEVER?
No, she is EXCELLENT! You gave her depth to counterbalance her little quirks. She's not like 'most romance heroines' but that is distinctly in her favor, and a tribute to your writing.
Every time I think I know who I am, my characters rewrite me.
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#115 03-16-2006 18:24:48
Re: What about a book club?
WHY IS JILLY SO AFRAID OF HER MOTHER? (a reflection of Annie's question)
There were times I wondered this, too. And it kept the intrigue high. Got nearly to the end and the answers came.
Still, though, Annie does have a valid point. Jilly's maybe TOO afraid. And Daniel -- being the tough guy he is -- definitely shouldn't be afraid. Of course, he's not really scared for himself, but more for Jilly.
There are a couple ways that could be addressed. One would be by adding a little detail earlier in the story -- like when Jilly's hand is burning -- add one of Jilly's memories there to hint at what a wacko the mother truly is.
OR -- and this is again just thrown out because it came up in the discussion before I got here -- MAYBE there should have been a point sometime in the past, between when Jilly ran away and when she's found this time. A time when the mother DID take some action against her -- sent someone after her, to silence her or whatever. Then you could have Daniel save her, and she and Daniel maybe deciding they'd be less noticeable living apart from each other, all that could tie in. It could be done as a flashback. If Daniel did in the assassin, that could also be something else the mother could potentially hold over him.
OR the mother didn't send an assassin, but instead got Jilly's adress at some point in the past and started sending increasingly vile mail and maybe making threatening phone calls.
All that might have been enough to send Jilly running all over again, ending her up in Willow Creek.
Oh oh oh, another subplot. I want the mother to have written an autobiography (or maybe somebody else wrote it but it's her authorized biography) telling how heartbroken she was after her children were kidnapped. But then have her make a statement in the book that she just knows she'll see them again. You know... stuff that sounds all nice and sweet to anyone who isn't Jilly or Daniel, but scares them half to death????? Muhahahahaha!
Every time I think I know who I am, my characters rewrite me.
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#116 03-16-2006 18:27:19
Re: What about a book club?
oh, you sooo nefarious Ivey!
www.annsimko.com
Fallen, book one of the Coyote Moon series
Published by Lyrical Press Inc.
www.lyricalpress.com/fallen
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#117 03-16-2006 18:33:23
Re: What about a book club?
DO JILLY AND CALEB WORK AS A COUPLE?
YES! Caleb does fall fast and hard, but he knows his own mind. And enough people comment on it that we know that's not his normal approach to relationships.
I did get frustrated with him at times, like I said in some of the feedback. Not because he cared so much about Jilly, but because he didn't seem to want to give her the time she needed to sort herself out. He took a big risk in pushing her, and it almost cost him everything. It might be cool to have him reflecting on that, kicking himself in the arse because he thinks he ruined the best thing he ever had.
Anyway, yes they REALLY work together. They're opposites in a lot of ways. But I think that's why they need each other.
Every time I think I know who I am, my characters rewrite me.
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#118 03-16-2006 18:34:28
#119 03-16-2006 18:39:38
Re: What about a book club?
IS THERE A BENEFIT TO BOOK CLUB DISCUSSION?
Yeah. This is an excellent way to approach a book, and I hope you're enjoying the comments, Jennifer.
It's funny how questions come up here that never really surface so coherently in the chapter-by-chapter review. But *please* don't take the comments as indicators that the book NEEDS to be changed. It was wonderful just as it was.
I think the main benefit of these discussions is that it will help you as the writer gauge whether we took from the book the things you'd hoped we would. If we did, fantastic! And if not, then you'll know where you might want to focus attention to ensure we get the story just the way you wanted us to.
Every time I think I know who I am, my characters rewrite me.
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#120 03-16-2006 18:48:46
- jennifer
- Member

- From: Indiana
- Registered: 11-20-2005
- Posts: 2543
Re: What about a book club?
Ok, Ivey. Sorry, had to feed the kids (apparently, as a parent, I'm obligated to feed them), then run to the gas station (needed Red Bull and cough drops. Slightly addicted to both.) Ivey, I LOVE your idea about the autobiography. I could have her make allusions (is that the right word?) to a small town, that only Jilly and Daniel would catch.
I've thought about Caleb doubting himself at the end- but then I wondered if, since he'd always been so damn sure of himself around Jilly, him doubting himself would change him in some way. What do you guys think?
Also, now that I'm thinking about it, I was never fully satisfied with the mother's bad deeds. Does anyone have any ideas how I can make her truly evil?
When does a person get tired, give in, accept their fate and forget to dream?
~~from Hard Boiled Headline by HavePenWillScribble
"Then Mr. Baggins turned the handle and went in. The Took side had won. He suddenly felt he would go without bed and breakfast to be thought fierce." ~Bilbo Baggins The Hobbit
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#121 03-16-2006 18:50:30
- jennifer
- Member

- From: Indiana
- Registered: 11-20-2005
- Posts: 2543
Re: What about a book club?
Ivey, I'm having a BLAST! I'm desperate for feedback on this, because I want it to be the absolute best that it can be, and your comments (ALL OF YOU!!) are really helping. This is awesome.
When does a person get tired, give in, accept their fate and forget to dream?
~~from Hard Boiled Headline by HavePenWillScribble
"Then Mr. Baggins turned the handle and went in. The Took side had won. He suddenly felt he would go without bed and breakfast to be thought fierce." ~Bilbo Baggins The Hobbit
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#122 03-16-2006 19:13:29
#123 03-16-2006 19:14:20
- jennifer
- Member

- From: Indiana
- Registered: 11-20-2005
- Posts: 2543
Re: What about a book club?
Knew you were the right person to ask!
When does a person get tired, give in, accept their fate and forget to dream?
~~from Hard Boiled Headline by HavePenWillScribble
"Then Mr. Baggins turned the handle and went in. The Took side had won. He suddenly felt he would go without bed and breakfast to be thought fierce." ~Bilbo Baggins The Hobbit
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#124 03-17-2006 07:32:12
Re: What about a book club?
I think this was a great idea! It really gives a lot of great insight into the characters!
So who's next?
www.annsimko.com
Fallen, book one of the Coyote Moon series
Published by Lyrical Press Inc.
www.lyricalpress.com/fallen
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#125 03-17-2006 09:59:29
Re: What about a book club?
Okay, so the mother has money...
How about Daniel had set up a business and the old witch found out and orchestrated some kind of forced takeover? Muhahahaha.
Every time I think I know who I am, my characters rewrite me.
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