Online Writing Forums at TheNextBigWriter

falen · 12-30-2005 07:47:49

Here's antoher question -
how do we feel about a review that doesn't seem to understand the form the peice is in?

An example (and not a literal one) - I write a short story, post it and get a few reviews who starred it at 2-3 because they feel it will be better once i lengthen it and make it into a novel. Now, if my intention is to never make this more than a short story, how do we respond to a reviewer who has made incorrect assumptions about the piece?
And more importantly how would you rank their review? If they gave more feedback, specific lines that need working on or places where the prose lags, that's great ad easy to rank, but what if the whole review was just a few sentences about how the piece will flow much better when its a novel etc (and not suggesting it could de well as a novel, but assuming it WILL be a novel and i as the writer haven't gotten there yet) - do you rank the review low because they made an incorrect assumption?

I would really like input on how people would rank this type of review. I've seen a couple of reviews like this and it always brings up these questions.
Thoughts?

able anders · 01-04-2006 17:13:15

Hello All,
I am pleased to see such great discussion on reviews. So since it's a penny for my thoughts, I'll give you my two cents worth and you'll all make money:) LOL

But seriously, every piece of writing posted here is a work of art to the artist, - we pour our heart and soul into it, and as such, like any fine piece of art- beauty can be in the eye of the beholder.

When I look at an art gallery there are always artists that I love and others that I respect, but perhaps don't understand their work and reserve judgement because I just don't get it. When I come across a piece here that I do not agree with or don't connect with I try to find other art that appeals to my 'likes'. There are so many talented artists here that it is not hard to do.

One last note- there are times when I find a piece that I like, I mean, I really like, the work of the writer and struggle to find anything structurally wrong with what they are doing, I still try to point out specific aspects in the piece that really strike a chord and work for me. As a writer it is so important to know a specific line or metaphor that really works, not just how much we loved the total package. Specific positive feedback is every bit as important as specific constructive criticism.

Anyhooo, it is great to see 'reviewers etiquette' shaping up.

Able

wordsmith · 01-05-2006 06:11:25

Falen,

I see your point. I don't think that a review should be rated based on its length and whether it will become a longer work. It should be rated on its own merits.

If the review is not helpful, when you award your stars you could point that out and say what you prefer to see in a review. I think that will help the reviewer to do a better job in the future. I guess that what I'm saying is that although you may hesitate to give a poor review rating, you have to rate based on how helpful it's been and if it hasn't helped, then it hasn't

I have noted a few instances where I've done detailed reviews, not with a view to simply criticizing, but saying how I think the work would be better, what I liked and what didn't work for me and I've received poor ratings in return. I guess all of us are looking for something different, but like yourself, I like to receive reviews that are specific and that pertain to the work as it is presented.

Hope this helps a little bit.

falen · 01-05-2006 10:31:52

It does, thank you. I'm always so hesitanat about rating a review low because i'm just gald my work got reviewed at all - so i think i've only given a review below a 3 once and that was for someone who just completely missed the point of the story and their review wasn't about helping me or the piece.

wordsmith · 01-05-2006 12:56:24

If you explained the reason for the rating in your response then, hopefully the reviewing will understand what needs to be done next time around.

wordsmith · 01-05-2006 12:57:42

Oops, that should have been reviewer.

falen · 01-05-2006 17:48:00

LOL, i mean, did you see all the typos in MY post?

wordsmith · 01-05-2006 17:53:27

Guess that's what happens when our fingers are trying to keep up with the speed of our thoughts.

falen · 01-06-2006 07:23:35

lol. indeed. i also have a puppy in my lap and typing with one hand is hard!

Savidbor · 01-06-2006 09:02:33

For me I usually find myself giving two kinds of reviews. One is if I can find mistakes or pieces to possibly change in the writing, and the other is if I just find it to be nearly perfect, and explain how I relate to the poem and why I enjoyed it.

Something I do see though, which irritates me at times, is when I do find something I think could possibly use changing, or is odd, give a 3, explain exactly why, and then the author gives my review a 3 because "I didn't understand them" or "I will look into what you wrote, thank you for the review" and yet they still give me a 3 and I can only assume it is to get back at me. Now I understand if I just gave them a 3 and said "it was awful" and nothing else, but when I go through the time to give them idea's of how to possibly make changes/fix their writing, I think it is just rude to be upset and disreguard the effort I put into it when they put it up I thought to hear what others had to say.

Selah Cooper-Holl · 01-07-2006 06:01:53

lizzy_lemon wrote:
I was a member of another writing site for a couple of years and there was a real problem there with negative reviews. At that site, the reviews could be deleted, but deleting them didn't stop them from hurting. A couple of times, I almost gave up writing altogether, but then I thought, 'why should I?' I write for fun and it gives me great pleasure to create something I think is good. I'm not the best writer, nor do I want to be, though I do want to improve which is the reason people like me join these sites. Why should someone take away my pleasure because they are bitter and want to hurt people? I agree that these people should be pitied. I guess they all have their reasons for being nasty and doing what they do. As well as being pitied, they should also be ignored. Take them for what they are and file those reviews into your mental shredder - then forget them - they really aren't worth getting upset about. Lizzy.

I have shared that experience. I am delighted that this site doesn't allow 'anonymous' (read cowardly) reviews. I have a dear friend who had anonymous pick off her entire portfolio piece by piece out of sheer meanness.
The childhood foolishness of "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" is sheer fallacy. Names do hurt. They break spirit. Tibia can be set in a cast. It is likely it would heal in 6 to 8 weeks. How do you put a cast on a spirit?

barry n davidson · 01-07-2006 06:36:31

Personally I try to find peices that are in my favorite category. Then I'll read peices reccomended to me by some of the other members. I like to try to find the good points of the stories. Typos and misplaced commas can always be fixed. Not to mention an editor will tear a peice apart, and send you a letter telling you where to rewrite. If the story is good, I like the characters, and I can visualize the scenes, then the only thing I can add is how to make it more likable from my standpoint. It is ultimately up to the writer as to whether they use it or not. We're all human, I hope.

vbwaverider · 01-11-2006 12:10:53

Hey friends! I can't say that I'm a talented reviewer, but being a writer, I understand, (no matter how tough our skin is) others opinions dig deep. When I read many of the writings here on this site, I realize we're all in the same boat. We want to have our stuff published. Not for selfish reasons, but only for a sense of accomplishment. However, I've found from being here this short time, the accomplishment is best recieved from those of us in the trenches, not from some person grabbing a paperback and flipping through it.
This site is more like several doctor's discussing the best way to tend to a situation. They do it with concern, care, and a love of what they do.
I'm glad to have met many nice people here, and I now edit my work with many lessons, and readings found here.
Thanks to all of you, and Sol, you're included. Great work. Everyone keep smilin' and writin'. Lee

Selah Cooper-Holl · 01-11-2006 13:44:12

Another thought - once long ago a woman told me she had discovered she was once again able to zip a pair of favorite jeans. She wore them to work and was uncomfortable all day thinking she looked different than she wanted to be perceived. She said (and this is the part I remember) 'just because you can doesn't mean you should'.

I recently reviewed a piece and offered my opinion that a word might be offensive to some and suggested a substitution. Apparently my ability to express myself without being misunderstood is not as I hoped. My objective had been to illustrate the "just because you can doesn't mean you should' theory but I apparently failed quite dramatically.

It left me with a very large amount of insecurity about reviewing any more of the individual's work. I felt unappreciated and attacked. I don't know how to proceed. I don't want to alienate anyone else. I don't want to give reviews that are less than honest, sugar coating everything in order to not tie anyone's fashionable underpinnings in a wad.

Suggestions?

Last edited by Selah Cooper-Holl (01-11-2006 13:44:50)

reb_elle · 01-11-2006 13:56:41

Hi Linda [1st posterer] & Selah [last]... I'm afraid i just skimmed through these posts due to tick-tock considerations. Many valid points are made. Is a sad fact of life that some saddos get a kick outta desecrating others.

However - i was thinking today re my own stance re reviewing. I must confess - i take the cowardly route so far, in that i will only review work that i like [which isn't that much, me being me]. If i dislike something or - mostly the case - the words don't jump outtta the screen for me, i move on.

I was a prof lit crit in a past incarnation & i know that - if i had enough time - i could critique poems/stories/chapts that do nothing for me in a pallitable way for the author. Unfortunately, this takes much more time than showering a constellation of gush upon authors of exquisite poems/stories.

Gush is good for the ego - vital for the lonesome writer with mr/ms Nihilist leaping on their keyboard. But a justifiably harsh BUT well-indended critical crit could actually move a writer on to progress. If worded euphemistically & if the writer is prepared to remove his/her laurel halo for a while.

Sorry - just a few hastily tapped thoughts.

More later.

Wishes

Reb

wordsmith · 01-11-2006 17:22:02

Selah,

I read your comment and thought how hard it is sometimes to convey exactly what we mean using plain English (as odd as that sounds), however, I believe that if the intent is to help the writer, suggestions should be accepted in the spirit in which they are given. We only hurt ourselves when we choose to attack our reviewers. As long as the advice is offered in a courteous manner, I don't see where we need to take offence at the reviews we receive.

I have found the reviews here to be very helpful. Naturally, they can't all be to my liking, but I have been able to find in each one some useful suggestion as to how my work can be improved. I can't tell you how much my writing has improved in the short time that I have been here. That's a major plus.

It's so much better to wait to respond and think about what the reviewer is trying to convey - see if there is any truth in their observations - than to jump off the deep end and hurt the feelings of those who are trying to help us. IMO, until we are ready to take the bitter with the sweet, it makes little sense putting up our work for review. I know the people who appreciate having their work seriously critiqued based on the ratings I get after a not so glowing review.

IMO, it's better to have the faults noted here than to send the work out and have it rejected.

Oops! Now, I've written a whole essay!

Elle Lockwood · 01-11-2006 21:05:51

I have gotten what I consider negative reviews only rarely on this site--usually had to do with disagreement on content! There are some things that I just cannot get through because of language, erotica, or so many sentence fragments that it would take hours to point them all out (I could rewrite it faster!), so I don't review the work.

Most of us are adults, here, I think,(HPWS is still in question!)-so we should be able to take a few pot-shots with grace. I choose not to think of all the people in the world who WOULDN'T like me; I concentrate on those who DO! Personally, I am grateful for the vast majority who review with kindness and make really good suggestions for improvement. This site is overflowing with good writers and reviewers!

L. P. Thomas · 01-11-2006 21:52:37

Kindness with words creates confidence.
Lao-Tzu

I think this quote says it all.
Linda

Doinmybestatlast · 01-11-2006 21:55:40

Elle Lockwood wrote:
I have gotten what I consider negative reviews only rarely on this site--usually had to do with disagreement on content! There are some things that I just cannot get through because of language, erotica, or so many sentence fragments that it would take hours to point them all out (I could rewrite it faster!), so I don't review the work.

Most of us are adults, here, I think,(HPWS is still in question!)-so we should be able to take a few pot-shots with grace. I choose not to think of all the people in the world who WOULDN'T like me; I concentrate on those who DO! Personally, I am grateful for the vast majority who review with kindness and make really good suggestions for improvement. This site is overflowing with good writers and reviewers!

I resent the fact you call Scribbler the only child among this illustrious group of nearsighted over achievers.

There are those that believe themselves to be talented poets and writers, but who's work are so laughable in quality I give them a glowing five star review, because their reviews are so riduclously bad and they think themselves great. (Beware of my five star review). I mock them with false glory.
Then there are others that I give a three or four star review, but the story is good the work can can be improved and become an excellent story. I give them my best effort at help. You can see their growth as writers. The best of them know that one good review is like a lesson. They have learned.
As far as rankings go they are very worthless. There is not a writer on this site that doesn't dream of a publisher picking up their work? A three star work can be re-written and become better because a reviewer gave a subtle lesson. Is it worth republishing? No! Why? Does the writer need the adulation? No, he wants a payday. The story is as good as it is going to get. If you look at the short story rankings they are filled with short, short stories. Easy five stars given. The long shorts stories that are just as good or better languish 50 and beyond. This is a weakness of this review method on this site.
Novel writers understand that the readers that are going to be with them on chapter one may not be their on chapter 10. Long chapters and stories are just too difficult to read over the long haul. Short stories and poetry is shorter. Easy to get that review point.
Bad one star and two star reviews. Why do you care? Don't. They mean nothing. Did they give you a lesson? If yes ,thank them. If not then they are shallow people and we should feel sorry for their parents, or maybe even slap them. If you didn't like the work and you don't understand it? Pass. If you didn't like the work and you can help? Do it and give it the star it deserves.
Rude? There are a few that are laughed behind their backs. Emails fly around and we get a good laugh ridiculing them. Too bad there are so few really rude people on this site. I need to chuckle even more. We know who they are. Since there are so few I have decided being rude is fun. Beware of my reviews!

Elle Lockwood · 01-11-2006 22:59:13

Hey, DMBAL,
Sorry I slighted you on your "self-proclaimed" adolescent status. Forgive me! Just tell me what you want to hear; I'm easy that way! Since we live at least a continent (and several planets) apart, I'd only have to perform occasionally. I can do that! We're all creative writers, yes?

The bottom line to all of this is that the publishers frankly DO NOT CARE what we think of each other! They care only about what THEY think of our work. I've never checked, but I don't think the crummy reviewers are on an agent list anywhere! Write on with joy!

Doinmybestatlast · 01-11-2006 23:42:28

Elle Lockwood wrote:
Hey, DMBAL,
Sorry I slighted you on your "self-proclaimed" adolescent status. Forgive me! Just tell me what you want to hear; I'm easy that way! Since we live at least a continent (and several planets) apart, I'd only have to perform occasionally. I can do that! We're all creative writers, yes?

The bottom line to all of this is that the publishers frankly DO NOT CARE what we think of each other! They care only about what THEY think of our work. I've never checked, but I don't think the crummy reviewers are on an agent list anywhere! Write on with joy!

Oh so sorry Linda, as your knight I am just defending your honor!

Man, after Linda, Jen and Susan were done with those "crummy" reviewers my jaws hurt from laughing so hard. You know that achey pain when you exercise and you ache the next day? My jaws ached for 48 hours.

Selah Cooper-Holl · 01-12-2006 04:53:52

Hey DMBAL - You pointed out one very huge important thing about the ratings I had missed by a country mile. You are correct about the really short easy stuff rising to the top. I feel better now. Thanks.

P.S. How come no one emails ME to snicker? Am I too new? Or am I being emailed about? Inquiring minds want to know.

What's the frequency Kenneth?

Doinmybestatlast · 01-12-2006 07:44:37

Selah Cooper-Holl wrote:
Hey DMBAL - You pointed out one very huge important thing about the ratings I had missed by a country mile. You are correct about the really short easy stuff rising to the top. I feel better now. Thanks.

P.S. How come no one emails ME to snicker? Am I too new? Or am I being emailed about? Inquiring minds want to know.

What's the frequency Kenneth?

Selah (vie) - I only let my friends call me DMBAL ( dumb Al). You see my name is Al. I will offically announce today that you are my friend! Some call me Dewey Last, or just Dewey.

brian wamsley · 03-28-2006 08:46:44

Sometimes rudeness may not be. As a writer I used to get inflamed about reviews when they cut against my grain. I had put a lot of time and effort in writing and I felt strongly that it was among the best in the world. That may sound a little silly but its nonetheless true, not just for me but for all writers. We all feel our work is the best and rightly so. If you don't care about what you are writing it will show and people will see it. The problem i had was that I couldn't see my own writing.
What I mean by that is I can't tell if something I wrote is good or not. It is much like the TV show American Idol. People come to audition, much as we would query an agent or author. Some are so bad they make a separate show just to show their performance. They really do not know that they are missing something, but some of them could be better if they had more time to work on it. Anyway, many of the failed contestants had the same reactions to the judges opinions. Anger, cursing and hurting. That had been my reponse to criticism and rejection letters in the past.
When I saw myself in those people's reactions to criticism,(they really couldn't tell if they were good or not and bless their hearts they weren't so good) it was embarrassing.Therein was my problem. I couldn't tell if I was any good or not and I didn't want anybody else to say so if they didn't think so. I wouldn't accept any criticism as valid and usually went off half-cocked. It wasn't until about three years after I started writing, that I found a piece I had written when I was a newbie.
Because I had grown as a writer since that time, had more experience in reading, reviewing and writing, and because so much time had passed, I was able to read it as a "first time" reader once again. I was finally able to see the value in the harsh critique I had gotten so long ago and ignored. I remembered my response to the long-ago review and was glad now, that I was unable to get to a computer to respond at that time.
It was really bad in the ways that the critique pointed out. Now I can see the value in what may seem to be a harsh critique or a slam or whatever it is called. If people are going to be writers, they need to develop a thicker skin. There will always be harsh criticism and yes, some people will cross the line, as people do, but it is this criticism that helps us as writers because sometimes we cannot see if our work is good or not. I didn't "get" this until I had accumulated one hundred and twenty rejection letters for the last novel I wrote.
After about fifty I passed the point of being mad and wondered if maybe it wasn't so good. So I revised it and revised it some more. Now it is still having much room for improvement, but it was all the rejection, and declines and bad reviews that I was able to get over myself and be rational. It also played no small part in my motivation to make it better.
I'm no Mozart of the keyboard and it is going to be hard. It just is. Writing means rejection and starting over. Might want to get used to it if you are serious about longevity as a writer. Just my opinion, you know not everyone is going to be a fan. I hope this post helps understanding in some way and contributes to the community. I don't wish to offend anyone, but if I do I hope you get over it, because really I am no better than anyone else and I do try not to hurt anybody's feelings. Toughen up a little bit though if you are sensitive, it will serve you well.

voodooman65 · 05-13-2006 16:19:09

Wow,
okay ... well one from a reader how is that.. reviewer .. no offense.. its hard to consider myself a reviewer. Well anyway. Teh true meaning of beinga reader .. is can you all suck me into yoru book or story or poem. If i like it .. yes i am going to let you know.. if it starts and loses me i will tell you .. if it makes me angry .. guess what.. you got me.. I to this day dont like some of the thing i read.. but it helps me in the long run. Anyway. I hope you all dont take anything i review as an attack. I like to read.. it a wonderful thing. As for a reader making and attack on a author.. i hate to say this it might be lack of imagination? (oh someone is goign to shoot me for that one. ) Anyway i am off to do some family thing befroe i get in trouble again. Yeah worse thing i ever did was find a writing sight i can read for free.. hahaha.. thanks everyone be looking forward to more stories.
Voodooman65 :-))

#26 12-30-2005 07:47:49

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#27 01-04-2006 17:13:15

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lizzy_lemon wrote:

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Elle Lockwood wrote:

#45 01-11-2006 22:59:13

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Elle Lockwood wrote:

#47 01-12-2006 04:53:52

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#48 01-12-2006 07:44:37

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Selah Cooper-Holl wrote:

#49 03-28-2006 08:46:44

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#50 05-13-2006 16:19:09

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